Yes, Jesus meant TODAY in his message to the thief on the cross

NotTheRock said:

Most people argue about where that darn comma in the verse is supposed to be! Let's forget about the comma.

If it was Jesus's intention to communicate that the thief would be in his kingdom eventually in the future, he likely would have said "You will be with me in paradise", which of course, doesn't designate when.

However, Jesus used "TODAY" because that is exactly what he meant. Jesus told him "You'll be with me in paradise TODAY"!

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Yes...and as He "is the same yesterday, today, and forever", every day is "today." Which, Paul elaborated upon, say, "but each one in his own order (or time)."

Thus, whoever wants the promises of God of eternal blessing--"today", you/they need only believe, and ask. Do it "today!"

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● Luke 23:42 . .Then he said: Jesus, remember me when you come into
your kingdom.

The messianic kingdom, as it's described in the old testament, will be a
wonderful place to live under ideal conditions, but it won't be an ideal
paradise.

For one: although longevity will be increased, not everyone there will be
immortal.

And although crime will be tightly controlled; it won't be totally absent.

Wealth will be unevenly distributed. There will those who are rich, and there
will be those who are poor.

Large numbers of ordinary people will survive the calamities leading up to
Jesus' kingdom. Those folks will go on to produce a posterity that will join
with the Devil in a revolution to unseat Christ.

And then finally the messianic kingdom will undergo complete destruction by
a massive conflagration so blistering, combined with an explosion so powerful,
that the entire cosmos as we know it will be obliterated. The destruction will
be so thorough that it won't leave behind any debris that people might say
"Hey look! That used to be Neptune." or "Hey look! That used to be the
James Webb space telescope." Even olde Jerusalem, the kingdom's nerve
center, will be gone forever.
_

Webers_Home said:

.
The Greek word translated paradise basically speaks of parks and/or park
systems.

For example New York City's mega recreational area is called Central Park;
but that isn't New York's only recreational area. There are lots of smaller
parks throughout the city that although they have their own individual
names-- e.g. The Highline, Bryant, World Trade Center, Washington Square,
etc --they're all incorporated in the New York City park system.

The thing is: I'm personally confident that there is nothing especially bad
about regarding all Heavenly areas as paradise regardless of their individual
names and/or locations, e.g. the area that at one time in the past provided
accommodations for Lararus and Abraham, the third Heaven, and the
paradise of God. In other words: I rather suspect that the world of paradise
is a whole lots more extensive than we've thus far been told.
_

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Well, I've been for a walk in a few Parks and Lazarus and Abraham weren't within cooee. Did they shift house? couldn't secure a building permit? Were of the wrong ethnicity; couldn't come up with five million dollars so got deported?

NotTheRock said:

We're told he went into Hell. I don't see why he wouldn't have gone into Heaven, at least in his spiritual body. Besides, Jesus said that believers never die. I don't think that statement came with an asterisk along with a disclaimer that believers would actually be in some sort of suspended animation.

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Care to share your scriptural evidence for everything you just stated above? Thanks, I'll be waiting.

Ronald D Milam said:

Paradise was a holding place for Jewish Saints of God. Jesus went there to preach to those dead who never heard of Jesus remember? So, Jesus was on this earth for three days until he was raised, he never left to go to Heaven until after the three days, he went to offer he Sacrifice, hence he told Mary touch me not (she would have DEFILED the Sacrifice unto God) but then 8 days later Jesus told Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds. So, THIS DAY mean Jesus being in the Paradise place of souls. Not in Heaven.

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I would refer you to post #6.
Paradise, heaven, the throne of the Father, the new Jerusalem, are all in the same place. And Jesus went there but not until after the resurrection and after he had spoken to Mary, and before he spoke to Thomas. He didn't go anywhere else. He was dead.

Brakelite said:

I would refer you to post #6.
Paradise, heaven, the throne of the Father, the new Jerusalem, are all in the same place. And Jesus went there but not until after the resurrection and after he had spoken to Mary, and before he spoke to Thomas. He didn't go anywhere else. He was dead.

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I have already defeated the point. I have known this for 40 years.

.
● Jonah 1:17 . . The Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and he was
inside the fish three days and three nights

FAQ: Was Jonah alive in the fish?

REPLY: Yes. (Jonah 2:1)

FAQ: The whole time?

REPLY: No; at some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place
called sheol (Jonah 2:2) which is located at the roots of the mountains.
(Jonah 2:6)

Well; the roots of the mountains aren't anchored in the tummies of fish, nor
are they anchored under the sea, rather: they're anchored underground
deep in the earth. So, the only way that Jonah could possibly be at the roots
of the mountains while simultaneously in the belly of a fish was for the man
and his body to part company and go their separate ways. This is not
impossible because according to Matt 10:28 people can, and do, exist as
disembodied souls.

Also, the language of Jonah's prayer strongly suggests that his corpse was
restored to life, i.e. resurrected.

● Jonah 2:6 . . I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its
bars was around me forever, But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit,
O Lord my God.

The Hebrew word for "pit" basically pertains to holes in the ground, but
sometimes speaks of putrefaction too, e.g. Ps 16:8-10 & Acts 2:25-31. In
other words: had Jonah's body been left inside that fish's tummy for much
longer, it would've been digested to oblivion.

● Matt 12:40 . . For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of
a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the
heart of the earth.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' remains weren't laid to rest in the heart
of the earth; and in point of fact they weren't even covered with dirt. They
were laid to rest up on the surface of the earth, above the dirt, in a rock
tomb. So the only way that Jesus could be aboveground while
simultaneously belowground was for he and his body to part company and
go their separate ways the same as Jonah's did.

NOTE: Jonah 2:5-7 strongly suggests the prophet was already deceased via
drowning before the fish swallowed him; which makes sense seeing as Jesus
was deceased before he was laid to rest in the tomb, viz: neither man was
buried alive.

But my point is: Jonah's experience is the old testament's proof that death
doesn't terminate people's existence as some have supposed.
_

Greetings again Webers_Home,

Webers_Home said:

But my point is: Jonah's experience is the old testament's proof that death doesn't terminate people's existence as some have supposed.

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A person dies, he becomes unconscious and returns to the dust. Jesus was dead for three days. The word Sheol should be translated the Grave.

Kind regards
Trevor

Webers_Home said:

.
● Jonah 1:17 . . The Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and he was
inside the fish three days and three nights

FAQ: Was Jonah alive in the fish?

REPLY: Yes. (Jonah 2:1)

FAQ: The whole time?

REPLY: No; at some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place
called sheol (Jonah 2:2) which is located at the roots of the mountains.
(Jonah 2:6)

Well; the roots of the mountains aren't anchored in the tummies of fish, nor
are they anchored under the sea, rather: they're anchored underground
deep in the earth. So, the only way that Jonah could possibly be at the roots
of the mountains while simultaneously in the belly of a fish was for the man
and his body to part company and go their separate ways. This is not
impossible because according to Matt 10:28 people can, and do, exist as
disembodied souls.

Also, the language of Jonah's prayer strongly suggests that his corpse was
restored to life, i.e. resurrected.

● Jonah 2:6 . . I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its
bars was around me forever, But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit,
O Lord my God.

The Hebrew word for "pit" basically pertains to holes in the ground, but
sometimes speaks of putrefaction too, e.g. Ps 16:8-10 & Acts 2:25-31. In
other words: had Jonah's body been left inside that fish's tummy for much
longer, it would've been digested to oblivion.

● Matt 12:40 . . For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of
a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the
heart of the earth.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' remains weren't laid to rest in the heart
of the earth; and in point of fact they weren't even covered with dirt. They
were laid to rest up on the surface of the earth, above the dirt, in a rock
tomb. So the only way that Jesus could be aboveground while
simultaneously belowground was for he and his body to part company and
go their separate ways the same as Jonah's did.

NOTE: Jonah 2:5-7 strongly suggests the prophet was already deceased via
drowning before the fish swallowed him; which makes sense seeing as Jesus
was deceased before he was laid to rest in the tomb, viz: neither man was
buried alive.

But my point is: Jonah's experience is the old testament's proof that death
doesn't terminate people's existence as some have supposed.
_

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Hebrew idiom! Don't discern it and you make pigs fly!

TrevorHL said:

A person dies, he becomes unconscious and returns to the dust. Jesus was dead for three days.

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If true that death terminates human existence, then it would not be true
that Jonah went to the roots of the mountains while his body was in the big
fish, and it would not be true that Jesus went to the heart of the earth while
his body was in the tomb.

If true that death terminates human existence, then it would not be true
that Jesus underwent a resurrection. Instead, he would've undergone a
re-creation to bring him back into existence.

Well; of course re-creation is a spurious theory seeing as how Jesus was
endowed with eternal life, which is a kind of life that cannot be terminated
because it's the kind of life sustaining God's existence. (John 5:26 & 1John 1:1-2)

TrevorHL said:

Sheol should be translated the Grave.

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Well; you can repeat that mantra over and over again like a chirping bird but
you should realize that no amount of repetition will ever make it come true.
_

NotTheRock said:

Nope. You win the debate. Congratulations!

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This isn't about winning debates, this is about sharing what we believe is scriptural, right or wrong. You made a comment, share your scriptural support for them. It's how we learn from each other.

Berean said:

This isn't about winning debates, this is about sharing what we believe is scriptural, right or wrong. You made a comment, share your scriptural support for them. It's how we learn from each other.

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when I go fishing I hope da fish win de bait!
tryin' to fish by whackin' 'em wit da plank never got me any fish.

Greetings again Webers_Home,

Webers_Home said:

If true that death terminates human existence, then it would not be true .... that Jesus went to the heart of the earth while his body was in the tomb.

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Jesus being in the heart of the earth is another way of saying that he was in the tomb.

Webers_Home said:

If true that death terminates human existence, then it would not be true that Jesus underwent a resurrection. Instead, he would've undergone a re-creation to bring him back into existence.

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I am not sure how you define resurrection. Lazarus was dead four days.

Webers_Home said:

Well; you can repeat that mantra over and over again like a chirping bird but you should realize that no amount of repetition will ever make it come true.

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This is how I read the following. Jesus was dead and was then resurrected from the tomb.
Psalm 16:8–11 (KJV): 8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Acts 2:29–32 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Jonah underwent only a typical death and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

Ronald D Milam said:

Jesus went there to preach to those dead who never heard of Jesus remember?

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Your benchmark for "proof" seems somewhat wanting. Why should those guys above get a second chance? And where in scripture does it even suggest such an idea?

NotTheRock said:

Jesus said that believers never die.

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Do you mean this...
“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. ”
1 Corinthians 15:53 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
has already happened,? And I missed it? How did that happen?

Webers_Home said:

● Jonah 1:17 . . The Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and he was
inside the fish three days and three nights

FAQ: Was Jonah alive in the fish?

REPLY: Yes. (Jonah 2:1)

FAQ: The whole time?

REPLY: No; at some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place
called sheol (Jonah 2:2) which is located at the roots of the mountains.
(Jonah 2:6)

Click to expand...

The events were:

1) Jonah was thrown overboard from the ship and into the sea.

2) He was in the sea, about to drown, surrounded by weeds above and the "roots of the mountains"; he was about to die. Barnes Notes comments on 2:2 says:


Jonah 2:5-6 (WEB):


Barnes Notes comments on 2:6 says:


3) While about to drown, unable to take a breath, in his thoughts he prayed to God, and God heard his prayer and rescued him, sending a great fish to swallow him. Jonah 2:7 (WEB):


4) While in the belly of the fish (for three days and theree nights) Jonah spoke the words recorded in chapter two, finishing with a promise to keep his vows, Jonah 2:9-10 (WEB):

Webers_Home said:

But my point is: Jonah's experience is the old testament's proof that death
doesn't terminate people's existence as some have supposed.

Click to expand...

Jonah didn't die; God sent the great fish to rescue him before he drowned.

Brakelite said:

NotTheRock said:

Jesus said that believers never die.

Click to expand...

Do you mean this...
“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. ”
1 Corinthians 15:53 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
has already happened,? And I missed it? How did that happen?

Click to expand...

More likely he was thinking of John 11:26 (WEB):

And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43
Not a lot here. But then what can we glean from what is said.

First off, when Christ says truly….that mean really…. actually…this is not a parable or hypothetical.
Secondly, He said today….so he meant that day.
And then he indicated that that day He and the thief would be in Paradise. Now what did he mean by Paradise. There nothing in the scriptures that indicate that Christ and Theif went to Heaven. Christ would not go to Heaven until after His resurrection.

Now this is only part of the conversation….lets look at the rest.
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ” 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:39-43


Now looking at this the thief had some insight but still nothing to indicate that he was saved. Christ had not died yet.

One of the reasons that Christians cannot figure this out is because they think there are only two possible destinations….Sheol….the scriptures do not indicate that Sheol no longer is a destination. But Sheol is not well defined. Even the Jews had different opinions on what Sheol was. A lot of Christians speculate to left field on it.

So then what if….Sheol has different levels and at the top it is very nice….Paradise.
in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 1st Peter 3:19

What if Christ and the thief went to the top level of Shoal and Christ preached the Gospel to the Jews there. I never thought that Yahweh would give up on the Jews.

Then Christ went to Hell to confront Satan and let him know that there was a new sheriff in town.