ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,296
- 1,453
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
There is no good place within hell. Hell is all bad. The only good place for the dead is heaven, also called Abraham's bosom.
Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation )
- Thread starter GISMYS_7
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
There is no good place within hell. Hell is all bad. The only good place for the dead is heaven, also called Abraham's bosom.
Matthew 24:15-16 is a continuation of Jesus' answer to the disciples' question "when shall these things be", "these things" being the destruction of the temple. The abomination of desolation was the Roman armies (Luke 21:20) who destroyed the temple in 70 AD, not in an indeterminate future. The flight of the Judaean Christians occurred prior to 70 AD, not in an indeterminate future.
Both fulfilled long ago.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
The physical destruction of the OT economy and its eclipse by the NT was unarguably the most significant event in Scriptural history after the first coming of Christ and the birth of the NT Church. In Matthew 24:29, He describes it using the highly figurative language of a Jewish apocalyptic idiom, the best known and most notable NT example being Peter's reprise of Joel's OT prophecy at the birth of the NT Church:
Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
OT examples.
Isaiah describes the destruction of Babylon:
Isaiah 13
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Isaiah describes the destruction of Idumea:
Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Ezekiel describes the destruction of Egypt:
Ezekiel 32
7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
It is therefore no surprise to see our Lord employing this type of idiom to convey the significance of the destruction of earthly Jerusalem and the OT era, and its transcendence by heavenly Jerusalem and the NT era.
Last edited:
No one knows exactly. But keep your eyes and ears open for that time of the great tribulation; keep your eyes on Jerusalem. This great tribulation (apostasy) will happen before the second coming of Jesus Christ the Messiah. Be alert and ready for this to happen so you won’t be deceived. Jesus tells us:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NKJV) 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [that Day will not come] unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Yes, Christ warns us to be ever watchful and wait on Him with patience, as He comes at an hour which we do not expect.
Then for us, this will be true, that DAY of Christ will not come on us unawares as we were on watch, waiting for the master, we were not falling back and indulging in a life of sin.
1 Thessalonians 5
New King James Version
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and [c]edify one another, just as you also are doing.
Luke 12
The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant
35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. 38 And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would [g]have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food [h]in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Davy
Well-Known Member
WARNING BRETHREN:
This particular thread is about support of man's false Pre-trib Rapture Theory.
That idea that we are not appointed to God's Wrath with their quoting that single verse out of the 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter by Apostle Paul is their vain attempt to 'suggest' that the Church is 'raptured' PRIOR to the "great tribulation".
Well, Lord Jesus Himself revealed that the time of His coming and gathering of His saints, will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION, not prior to it (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).
Beware also of the false Pre-trib Rapture theory pushing their vanity of 3 comings by Lord Jesus when they try... to say that He comes prior to the great tribulation to gather the Church, and then after the tribulation comes again as His "second coming" to reign over the nations. If you have common sense and can count, then you should easily know their "second coming" idea means a 3rd Coming, and not a 2nd Coming!
______________________________________________________
What The Bible Actually Teaches:
1st Coming -- Christ's birth and Ministry here on earth, and then His crucifixion and resurrection.
2nd Coming -- Christ's coming AFTER the "great tribulation", to gather His faithful Church, and begin His literal reign over all nations.
Zechariah 9:9-10 also declares only those 2 Comings by Lord Jesus.
_____________________________________________________
What Man's False Theory of a Pre-Tribulational Rapture Teaches:
1st Coming -- Christ's birth and Ministry here on earth, then His crucifixion and resurrection.
2nd Coming -- Christ's coming to gather His Church, but PRIOR... to the "great tribulation". (Pre-trib school refuses to admit this is actually a 2nd coming, but that's what their theory is actually suggesting, regardless of what they claim it is.)
3rd Coming -- Christ's coming AFTER... the "great tribulation", WITH His elect Church that He had already gathered before the tribulation. And they try... and claim this is His "second coming" of Bible Scripture, but their theory actually makes this one a 3rd Coming.
_________________________________________________________
It's really that EASY folks. The false pre-trib rapture theory from men ADDS another Coming by Lord Jesus that DOES NOT EXIST IN THE WRITTEN BIBLE SCRIPTURES. What was it that Lord Jesus warned about those who ADD to His Word?
This particular thread is about support of man's false Pre-trib Rapture Theory.
That idea that we are not appointed to God's Wrath with their quoting that single verse out of the 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter by Apostle Paul is their vain attempt to 'suggest' that the Church is 'raptured' PRIOR to the "great tribulation".
Well, Lord Jesus Himself revealed that the time of His coming and gathering of His saints, will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION, not prior to it (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).
Beware also of the false Pre-trib Rapture theory pushing their vanity of 3 comings by Lord Jesus when they try... to say that He comes prior to the great tribulation to gather the Church, and then after the tribulation comes again as His "second coming" to reign over the nations. If you have common sense and can count, then you should easily know their "second coming" idea means a 3rd Coming, and not a 2nd Coming!
______________________________________________________
What The Bible Actually Teaches:
1st Coming -- Christ's birth and Ministry here on earth, and then His crucifixion and resurrection.
2nd Coming -- Christ's coming AFTER the "great tribulation", to gather His faithful Church, and begin His literal reign over all nations.
Zechariah 9:9-10 also declares only those 2 Comings by Lord Jesus.
_____________________________________________________
What Man's False Theory of a Pre-Tribulational Rapture Teaches:
1st Coming -- Christ's birth and Ministry here on earth, then His crucifixion and resurrection.
2nd Coming -- Christ's coming to gather His Church, but PRIOR... to the "great tribulation". (Pre-trib school refuses to admit this is actually a 2nd coming, but that's what their theory is actually suggesting, regardless of what they claim it is.)
3rd Coming -- Christ's coming AFTER... the "great tribulation", WITH His elect Church that He had already gathered before the tribulation. And they try... and claim this is His "second coming" of Bible Scripture, but their theory actually makes this one a 3rd Coming.
_________________________________________________________
It's really that EASY folks. The false pre-trib rapture theory from men ADDS another Coming by Lord Jesus that DOES NOT EXIST IN THE WRITTEN BIBLE SCRIPTURES. What was it that Lord Jesus warned about those who ADD to His Word?
MA2444
Well-Known Member
MA2444
Well-Known Member
MA2444
Well-Known Member
And it's one of those signs that start the countdown. The day a new man which is well liked comes into the political arena and brokers a covenant or treaty between Israel and several other nations. That will be huge because Israel is not big on signing treaty's. So it will be covered by the media worldwide. That man is the Anti-Christ. from the date the treaty is signed it will be 1260 days until the AoD. Then from that date starts the Great Tribulation and 1260 days later Jesus comes backs and stops the Great Tribulation and takes over the rule of the world. That's the end date of the Great Trib. The only reason we do not know the exact date yet is because it has not started with the siging of the treaty yet.
Damacus is still there as a city and hasnt even been destroyed yet. It will. I suspect it will be Israel nuking Damascus and all those terrorists. They will all need a peace treaty in that region before the GT starts. But once it starts, the treaty gets signed you can set your alarm clock for the coming of Jesus.
The great restoration hasn't even taken place yet! Any construction wise people will know that any remodel begins with the demolition of the old. First thing. So apparently Jesus is timing it to be able to arrive when enough demo has been done to prepare the earth for a great restoration. And the meek will inherit the earth for 1000 years under Jesus's rule. The millenial reign.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Yes. It appears that there are some on these forums that claim that there is no pretribulation rapture.
When they are challenged with scripture that they are wrong......they always run and hide instead of standing up to the challenge and PROVING with scripture that they are correct.
Ok. The gathering from heaven and earth are after the tribulation.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Who is gathered from heaven. The Church is gathered from heaven. Who is gathered from the earth. The 12 tribes across the earth which are the seed of the woman are gathered from the earth as they go through the tribulation as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Here are the Jews singing the song of Moses as they get victory over the beast with the blood of the lamb.
Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Jesus comes at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
This the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal. It is seen in Rev 14
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
All believers are in heaven during the 1-year wrath of God.
Jesus will return with the armies of heaven AFTER the marriage supper of the lamb. He will return to the earth and set His feet on the Mount of Olives. This is the second advent.
Great.
2nd Coming - Christ's coming AFTER the "great tribulation", to gather His faithful Church, from heaven as they were raptured in an hour that you think not. The seed of the woman, Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth are raptured from earth as Jesus comes after the tribulation for the gathering from heaven and earth. The 12 tribes that get victory over the beast with the blood of the Lamb are singing the song of Moses as seen in Rev 15.
All are in heaven for the marriage supper.
Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Here are those verses. Please explain how these verses declare only 2 Comings by Lord Jesus.
Zechariah 9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
OK.
No. The Lord comes in secret and is not seen. The second coming is after the tribulation when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper.
Christs 3rd coming will be AFTER THE WRATH OF GOD. The wrath of God is the Day of the Lord. Christs returns at the end of the Day of the Lord for Armageddon and then He will set up His kingdom on the earth.
You have no clue. What does the Lord say about those who take away from the words of this prophecy.
Revelation 22
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Do you not believe the Word that says He will come in an hour that you think not?
The Light
Well-Known Member
Well, not really. I wanted to use your exact answer to Covenantee as I wanted to see His argument against you. I noted that the light went on and he gave you a thumbs up. All the while, he fails to realize that he just shot his own argument in the foot.You just learned that from me. I guess maybe you are teachable, after all.
Exactly, and this proves that the great tribulation did not occur in 70AD as Covenantee claims.
The Light
Well-Known Member
In other words, you are in error. The word says that the great tribulation is after the beginning of sorrows which is wars and rumors of Wars, nation rising against nation, famines and pestilences and earthquakes.............which are the 1st four seals. This has not happened yet.
It seems you've ignored posts 173, 199, and 200, all evidences of Scriptural historical fulfillments.
Visit 'em.
There are no seals in the Olivet discourse, and no Olivet discourse in your seals.
Last edited:
The Light
Well-Known Member
It seems your posts were answered.
Let's pretend that you were actually correct and the great tribulation in Matthew 24 occurred in 70AD. That means immediately after that tribulation Jesus came.
Can you tell me what year Jesus returned?
No pretending involved. The great tribulation of Matthew 24 occurred in 70 AD, as the overwhelming evidence confirms.
Let's first address verse 29, which I've done in post 282. Agreed?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Most postribbers MUST incorporate the "one coming " error.
I suppose they were forced to erroneously add that as they painted themselves into an impossible corner.
Hard to wiggle out of that conundrum that their theory put them in.
Plus all rapture verses are Peace time, everyday life, Commerce, and normal activities.
Now you gotta stop and admit every single component of the postribber "one coming" unscripural theory ,is in defiance of those verses in God's word.
You guys failed in the "setting" of the rapture.
Postribbers Completely blew it.
It was poorly thought out, then came the impossibility , we point out, over and over.
For example. Don't know how long you have been reading the Bible, but however long it's been, not one single time have you ever compared Revelation 6 and the 6th seal with that of Matthew 24:29? How many times should we assume the stars fall from heaven, in any sense? Both accounts involve that, for one thing. And Revelation 6 indicates it pertains to the 6th seal. does it not? Maybe you just don't interpret Scripture with Scripture when applicable? But instead interpret Scripture in isolation?
See post 282.
Do you think that the Acts, Isaiah, and Ezekiel references are Revelation seals?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Do you ever get tired of being childish? Yes, I will address any point you make. I already know that you will not do the same in return because I pointed out how Jesus will have not come as a thief yet as of the time of the sixth vial (Rev 16:12-16) and you clearly had no interest in addressing that since you know that it disproves pre-trib.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It's quite childish of you to try to turn him and I against each other. Amils don't agree on everything just like premils don't agree on everything. You spend just as much time arguing with other premils on here as you do arguing with amils.
If you're talking about the great tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-21, then, yes, it did. Jesus spoke of two different events in the Olivet Discourse which futurists like yourself and preterists don't understand. One was a local event (destruction of the temple buildings) and one was global (destruction of all unbelievers). The disciples asked Him two questions. One related specifically to the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings. The other related to the sign of His second coming and the end of the age.
The difference in scope of the two events can most easily be seen in this passage:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
So, in Luke 21:20-24 we can see a description of great tribulation/distress occurring in Judea with Jesus referring to the desolation of Jerusalem. This passage is parallel to Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20. So, it's clearly a local event only that Jesus was describing there and it relates to the destruction of the temple buildings. And that happened in 70 AD. If you read Luke 21:24 you can see that what followed that event was what is called "the times of the Gentiles" during which "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles". That time period lasts right up until the time of Christ's second coming. You can see that His second coming is a global event, unlike what is described in Luke 21:20-24, by the reference to the "distress of nations" upon the earth.
You think that the reference to "the tribulation of those days" in Matthew 24:29 is a reference to what is described in Matthew 24:15-21. But, remember. Christ's second coming is a global event, not a local event. And Matthew 24:15-21 only describes a local event which in Luke 21 is described as "great distress in the land" of Jerusalem. So, "the tribulation of those days" that Jesus said His second coming will follow is actually a reference to the "distress of nations" that occurs on the earth just before His second coming which is differentiated from the local tribulation in Judea that Jesus talked about before that. So, you're not recognizing that "the times of the Gentiles" occurs between what is described in Matthew 24:15-22 and Matthew 24:29-31 and the "distress of nations" occurs after what is described in Matthew 24:15-22 and occurs at the end of the times of the Gentiles.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It's not an error. It's taught in scripture. That He is coming in the future only once is indicated here:
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
And here:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Never does scripture reference Him appearing a third time. Never does it say He will come from heaven in like manner that He ascended there and then He will go back to heaven again and return from there again after that.
Yet, you can't even explain what that supposed conundrum even is. You just make this claim with no explanation of what you're talking about. You can't be taken seriously.
What verses? Are you too lazy to even post them? Why don't you take the time to form a coherent argument that you can post here, so we can know exactly what you're talking about? Your claims alone mean nothing. Back them up with scripture. What verses are you talking about?
All you can do is claim that post-tribbers are wrong while doing absolutely nothing to back up your claims. It's a joke.
Similar threads
