The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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We all believe, in our reading and study and interpretation, we let scriptures interpret scriptures. So as I said, it is the Holy Spirit who will settle the truth in each child of God. And that, in God’s time, as He wills.
Tong
R2083
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Apparently you are having trouble with the concept of transcendence, and I apologize for not being able to explain it in a way that is understandable.
At this point, in order to move the conversation forward, I should ask you to explain God's mercy. I assume we both agree that each and every person who ever existed, except for Jesus Christ, is guilty of sin and deserves punishment? Granting this, then why mercy? Explain mercy in a way that is not contingent on merit of any kind. Or do you think some people deserve to be saved?
I see mercy the same way as most Protestants, I suppose. I don't see anything telling us mercy is merited. But I also think in order to call God merciful, he would have to be "fair" and either offer salvation to all or none. The difference between my beliefs and some is that I suspect God is much more merciful than I can fathom. God has set a condition for mercy, that is belief in Jesus as Savior and all that entails, as much as we can understand it. I don't think it's a matter of meeting that condition meriting us anything, but it's God's prerogative to set whatever condition he wishes.
No. There is one and the same Spirit who gives understanding and guides the child of God into all truth. But He gives understanding according to His will and in His time. And there is one and the same truth, not many and different.
There could be a number of reasons why different interpretations come about. But it all boils down to this, that such is not the work of God, but of His enemies, whose father is the father of lies. Now, we all who sincerely and truthfully seek the truth written in scriptures, must be wise in his ways. On my part, I use this among others as a check with regards my interpretation: Does it glorify God or the creature? For I am convinced that the truth glorifies God and not the creature.
Tong
R2084
How do you suppose God hardens a person such as Pharaoh?
When scriptures says God hardened Pharaoh, do you take that as God’s doing or not?
And if you consider Romans 9:17 where it says “the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”, what does “raised you up” mean to you and what is your take on that statement in bold?
Tong
R2085
<<<But I also think in order to call God merciful, he would have to be "fair" and either offer salvation to all or none.>>>
On my part, I don’t see that as a necessity, not to mean that God is not fair or is not just, for He is. For one, God did not really offer salvation to man, rather, it was His sovereign will, purpose, and pleasure to save a people, those He have chosen consistent to His nature.
<<<God has set a condition for mercy,>>>
A conditional mercy? I don’t have the same view regarding the mercy of God.
Tong
R2086
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I believe what John 3:16 says, That God loved the world so much that he sent his Only-begotten Son that whosoever exercises faith in him will not perish but have Everlasting life.
I see nothing in the scriptures that refutes that God sent his Only-begotten Son to the world of mankind because of his love for the world of mankind. Just because many choose to not be one of Jesus sheep doesn't mean that those people were not included in the love God had for the world of mankind. It doesn't mean Jesus didn't die for those who choose not to be Jesus sheep.
Of course, it is written in Isaiah 9:6 that the son that was given shall have the name of "The everlasting Father"; which indicates that that is who He is.
<<<I believe what John 3:16 says, That God loved the world so much that he sent his Only-begotten Son that whosoever exercises faith in him will not perish but have Everlasting life.>>>
I believe that too.
<<<I see nothing in the scriptures that refutes that God sent his Only-begotten Son to the world of mankind because of his love for the world of mankind. >>>
Me too. Only that, my take on “world” there is that it refers to mankind, the creature kind that is the human being ~ man.
<<< ....those who choose not to be Jesus sheep.>>>
In my view, being a sheep of Jesus is not the result of man’s choice. It is God’s choice that one is a sheep of Jesus, for scriptures says regarding the sheep, that the Father had given them to the Son. That means, why they are sheep of Jesus is because God had chosen them and gives them to Jesus to be His sheep.
Yes, man make the choice between God and the Devil. Those who come to choose God, only does so, because they were first chosen by God.
Tong
R2088
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I believe there's a fold of the sheep that belong to Jesus that is called a little flock of the sheep that God chooses by his Holy Spirit bearing witness with their spirit that they have been called by God, so yes this little flock of sheep are chosen by God. They are the ones born again and will be in heaven with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom that Jesus has been made king of. They will rule over Earth in that heavenly Messianic kingdom as kings,priests and judges.
The other sheep that are not of this fold some will pass through Armageddon into the new Earth without dying the rest of the sheep will be resurrected onto this new Earth.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
more on Rom 5:18
Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Now there is another group who opposes God Truth, known as the Universalist, who corrupt the Gospel Truth to teach that all without exception will be eventually saved based upon Rom 5:18 !
However in this context Paul makes clear that only those receiving vs 17 Gods Gift belong to Christ, meaning those who believe through Grace..
Rom 5:17
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Acts 18:27
27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
The words as and so tells us that Paul's aim is not that of number of each group, but as to the method or manner, of either sin or righteousness being imputed because of one representative's headship to its group.
So the First All men refers to all who were in Adam, while the second All men refers to who were in Christ, and only God is responsible for the all men in both Representative Heads.
We did not will ourselves into Adam, neither do men will themselves into Christ, God chose who was to be in Adam [have physical being] in like manner, God chose who was to be in Christ Eph 1:4 and have spiritual being.
All the Men chosen in Christ before the foundation, are the ones receiving the gift of righteousness and the Justification unto life.
So the universalist is in error as much as the freewiller162
Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Now there is another group who opposes God Truth, known as the Universalist, who corrupt the Gospel Truth to teach that all without exception will be eventually saved based upon Rom 5:18 !
However in this context Paul makes clear that only those receiving vs 17 Gods Gift belong to Christ, meaning those who believe through Grace..
Rom 5:17
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Acts 18:27
27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
The words as and so tells us that Paul's aim is not that of number of each group, but as to the method or manner, of either sin or righteousness being imputed because of one representative's headship to its group.
So the First All men refers to all who were in Adam, while the second All men refers to who were in Christ, and only God is responsible for the all men in both Representative Heads.
We did not will ourselves into Adam, neither do men will themselves into Christ, God chose who was to be in Adam [have physical being] in like manner, God chose who was to be in Christ Eph 1:4 and have spiritual being.
All the Men chosen in Christ before the foundation, are the ones receiving the gift of righteousness and the Justification unto life.
So the universalist is in error as much as the freewiller162
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Tong, I owe you an apology. There's something about you're writing style that really frustrates me, and it is wrong of me to allow it to be thus. I make this apology in public for a reason: I have indulged in unduly impatient behavior toward you which also affects those who are onlookers. I will try to do much better and I hope you can forgive me. :)
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Perhaps, but it doesn't mean that He did, either. I think we have to go outside John 3:16 to understand what is said in John 1:29. :)
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How does the concept of God arbitrarily picking some people for heaven and some for hell glorify him?
I take it as God's strengthening the resolve of a person who is already hardened due to his own rebellion.
It is important to note that the Hebrew word chazaq (translated as “harden” in English) does not carry the same connotation in Hebrew that it does in English. Chazaq is usually translated as “encourage”, “strengthen”, “repair”, “fortify” and “assist”.
It is a term that is frequently used in the Old Testament (They document 55 examples outside of Exodus). The only time chazaq is translated as “harden” is in reference to Pharaoh in Exodus. In all other occurrences, chazaq is translated as “strengthen”, “encourage”, “repair”, “fortify”, etc.
Here are a few examples:
- Joshua is encouraged (Deut 1:38).
- Jonathan helps David find strength in God (1 Samuel 23:16).
- The neighbors assisted Judah (Ezra 1:6).
- The Levites helped the priests complete a task (2 Chron 29:34).
God did not change Pharaoh’s heart to make him want to kill the Hebrews. Pharaoh already wanted to kill them. What God did was give Pharaoh the courage to follow through with what he already desired to do. Pharaoh was an evil man, but he was also timid and fearful of the Hebrews and their God. God simply gave Pharaoh the tenacity to follow through with the desires of his evil heart.
I see no problem with God raising Pharaoh up for this purpose, knowing what pharaoh would do. God often used evil men in spite of themselves. In other words he brings goodness out of their bad intentions, by inserting himself into the situation.
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