Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Renniks]

And I agree 100% with those verses!

Yes we have to hear teh words of truth in order for faith to be given to us .

Yes we must place our trust in christ in order to be saved.

But once again, we cannot do that of ourselves!

Romans 8:5-8
King James Version

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


The unsaved only have the flesh!

Romans 7:18
King James Version

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The flesh has nothing good in it!

1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We do not even receive the things of God as unsaved!

So knowing these biblical truths, how does a natural person choose Jesus????

He responds to the Holy Spirit's call. If there's no choice, then saying we must put our trust in God is ridiculous. That would be God putting his trust in himself.
The Spirit convicts, and we either submit or resist. If we have no free will, then any talking of resisting or submitting is nonsense.

"Ye stiffnecked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost! As your fathers did, so do ye!"

"Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."

 

[Renniks]

The bible says God impels us- I care not what Jacob Arminius or Calvin says. The only condition is faith or trust!

No wonder why you believe in free will. YOu believe that Jesus really didn't die for all your sins! If you believe you can lose your salvation then you are stuck accepting the fact that some of your sins were not paid for by Jesus!

He chose individuals who make up the group! You can't see the trees for the forest!

Your answers are extremely simplistic.
And you didn't tell me where the Bible says God impels us to believe. You be also have no understanding of what corporate election actually means. You have a deterministic universe where God is doing everything and we are just along for the ride... That's Atheistic theory, except they substitute evolution for God...and it's not biblical.
God requires us to cooperate in our salvation. Otherwise, we are just pawns being moved around the board. And God is good and evil at the same time. Calvinist thought is based on Gnostic beliefs. The very early church had no concept of determinism, they believed in free will wholeheartedly.

 

[Renniks]

You need to read the Old Testament. Israel was and still is Gods covenanted nation! He also dealt with Israel far differently than He deals with the Church! Two different dispensations with two different set of rules

I've read the entire Bible, more than once. And you just skipped over my objection, so let me try to re-word it. God chose Israel, but Israel often chose to rebel against God. This is corporate election, that is, Isreal was chosen, but individual Jews were not compelled to believe. How could God kill many of his own people in the OT if he had irresistibly chosen them? As Paul later says: 6 It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children.
8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.…

Israel is the clay in Romans 9. It's not about individuals chosen for salvation or damnation. And the clay, as we know from where Paul pulls the concept from, determines how God treats it. . 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

What's the conclusion of Romans 9? "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;...Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved."

The whole thing in Roman's nine is an explanation about how God worked out the plan of salvation through Israel in spite of their rebellion and The conclusion is that salvation comes by faith, not by works. That's the point Paul is making and once you understand that, you will never read it as being about some individuals be picked for salvation and some being passed over.

 

[justbyfaith]

No you haven't but given your animosity and false accusations, it is time to put you on ignore! You are really lousy at reading minds and an expert at bearing false witness.

Usually when someone is placed on Ignore by someone, it is because that person now being ignored got through to the person who is placing them on Ignore, and they didn't like the truth that they were shown.

Well show me a verse that says we have free will as lost sinners

I will show you four.

Joshua 24:15, John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, Revelation 22:17.

Did the Israelites have free will when Joshua gave the invitation that he gave in Joshua 24:15?

Yes they did, they were gods covenanted people! so they had free will restored in my opinion. They and not the gentiles had the capacity to serve god or not serve God! Once again the bible teaches that once someone is born again, they have their free will restored! Only a believer has the capacity to choose to do things that pleases God. The unbeliever does not have that capacity as Paul clearly said in Romans 8

So, your teaching is that the Israelites were born again of the Holy Spirit before Joshua gave the invitation.

Can you please tell me how that is possible, since the Holy Spirit was not even given until after Jesus rose from the dead (John 7:39)?

So knowing these biblical truths, how does a natural person choose Jesus????

When the Holy Spirit draws them they can make a free will decision to either receive or reject the salvation that is offered by the Lord.

If you believe you can lose your salvation then you are stuck accepting the fact that some of your sins were not paid for by Jesus!

I have to admit that I do not understand this argument.

Remember God is omniscient!

<fify>

We have nothing in Scripture that God gives people

<fify>

 

[marks]

God chose Israel, but Israel often chose to rebel against God. This is corporate election, that is, Isreal was chosen, but individual Jews were not compelled to believe.

Good example!

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

And in conclusion then, the cult of Calvinism is a CROCK - a DISTORTION of Christianity and not a real part of Christianity itself.

 

[Cooper]

And I am glad He did!

All you write is very sweet sounding and sentimental and filled with nice sounding platitudes. but it is not biblical Even Jesus said that we have to enter in the small gate for the super majority go down the broadway to damnation. If He chose all and some reject His choosing- you are saying that our will is stronger than Gods.

Jeremiah was abducted before He was even conceived, Paul was separated in his mothers womb! We are the chosen before the foundation of the world.

Look again:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

chosen by Him to be holy and without blame!
Predestined- not by our choice, but according to the good pleasure of HIS will (not ours)
And another verse that is harsh to our egos.

Romans 9:
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

So it is not of us who will it (free will) but of God!

The disciples, were elected (chosen) by God to win souls for the Kingdom of Heaven. The command was to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Clearly the people of the whole earth were unelected (not saved) from the foundation of the earth.

Those who were elected of God in scripture, in both the Old and New Testaments were chosen by Him for a specific reason and purpose. Do you think the elect of God today (the saved) are working out the Lord's plan and purpose, and if so how do you think they are doing, and indeed what precisely are they doing? Or are the true elect, those teachers, ministers, pastors and evangelists who work tirelessly for the Kingdom of God, are they the real elect?

The redeemed follow Jesus, the disciples, and other leaders down the ages. I am one of those, I am saved and redeemed, but I am not like my father who worked full time and led many a soul to the Lord while living in faith, with no income the same as the Apostle Paul and the other apostles, living hand-to-mouth like they did, answering the call of God. They are the true elect of God, called to do a work. I thank God for them and look up to them. Will our names go down in history as being one of God's elect? I know my name will not, but I do know my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life and I thank Him for all the ways in which He has helped me, a child of God. Praise His wonderful name.
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You know where this is from right?
Exodus 33....where Moses gets in an argument with God and wins.
You read it a certain way, because you have been trained to read a certain way probably by a Calvinist Bible college.

And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

God's actions towards humans are conditioned by their actions, according to scripture.

Wow you are filled with all sorts of assumptions you have no clue what you are talking about!

So mans actions determines Gods Will to you then?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

He chose us "in Christ". This says to me that God did not choose me for being me, rather, He chose me only in Christ. This has nothing to do with God treating me any differently than anyone else. But it does say that in Christ, I am chosen.

It doesn't say that God chose me to be in Christ, but that I am chosen in Christ. So the underlying fact that support all else is that I am in Christ.

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

It is in Christ that we receive all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. The material blessings, lots of them are waiting, like the redemption of our bodies.

Why would God tell Adam to not eat from a tree God knew He would eat from?

Much love!

He chose you because He chose you! We do not deserve it, earned it or merit it! He did it because HE decided to do it!

And you are in Christ because He chose you to be in Christ! As Jesus said "All that the Father has given to me shall come to me, and all who come to me I will in no wise cast out!".

As for God, Adam and the Tree? I can give you my speculations, but they are only speculations. God didn't bother telling us why He has done so many things that He knew in advance (for He knows all in advance). Maybe in eternity He will tell us, or He will say "It's nonya."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The disciples, were elected (chosen) by God to win souls for the Kingdom of Heaven. The command was to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Clearly the people of the whole earth were unelected (not saved) from the foundation of the earth.

Those who were elected of God in scripture, in both the Old and New Testaments were chosen by Him for a specific reason and purpose. Do you think the elect of God today (the saved) are working out the Lord's plan and purpose, and if so how do you think they are doing, and indeed what precisely are they doing? Or are the true elect, those teachers, ministers, pastors and evangelists who work tirelessly for the Kingdom of God, are they the real elect?

The redeemed follow Jesus, the disciples, and other leaders down the ages. I am one of those, I am saved and redeemed, but I am not like my father who worked full time and led many a soul to the Lord while living in faith, with no income the same as the Apostle Paul and the other apostles, living hand-to-mouth like they did, answering the call of God. They are the true elect of God, called to do a work. I thank God for them and look up to them. Will our names go down in history as being one of God's elect? I know my name will not, but I do know my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life and I thank Him for all the ways in which He has helped me, a child of God. Praise His wonderful name.
.

Well Ephesians 1 proves you wrong!

Ephesians 1
King James Version

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Unless you contend that now the apostles and the Ephesians were chosen from before the foundation of the World.

Romans 8:29-30
King James Version

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Also says you are wrong unless you contend that not all of the church is predestined so they will be conformed to the image of Jesus. Thats very JW teaching.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I've read the entire Bible, more than once. And you just skipped over my objection, so let me try to re-word it. God chose Israel, but Israel often chose to rebel against God. This is corporate election, that is, Isreal was chosen, but individual Jews were not compelled to believe. How could God kill many of his own people in the OT if he had irresistibly chosen them? As Paul later says: 6 It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children.
8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.…

Yes Israel is a national election. but it is an election of God.

Israel is the clay in Romans 9. It's not about individuals chosen for salvation or damnation. And the clay, as we know from where Paul pulls the concept from, determines how God treats it. . 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Here is where you err.

Romans 9:

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

See verse 24??? He is now bringing the example of Israel in the prior verses and applying it to all starting in verse 19.

 

[marks]

He chose you because He chose you! We do not deserve it, earned it or merit it! He did it because HE decided to do it!

And you are in Christ because He chose you to be in Christ! As Jesus said "All that the Father has given to me shall come to me, and all who come to me I will in no wise cast out!".

As for God, Adam and the Tree? I can give you my speculations, but they are only speculations. God didn't bother telling us why He has done so many things that He knew in advance (for He knows all in advance). Maybe in eternity He will tell us, or He will say "It's nonya."

I'm thinking in eternity these sorts of questions will be behind us.

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

Wow you are filled with all sorts of assumptions you have no clue what you are talking about!

So mans actions determines Gods Will to you then?

What part of this is hard to understand?

And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

Determinism is nonsense according to scripture.
God often makes "if" "then" statements to his people.

IF My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN will I hear from Heaven and heal their Land.”

IF you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, (THEN) you may say to this mountain, “Remove from here to over there; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”

When ye stand praying, forgive, IF ye have anything against anyone, so that your Father also, which is in Heaven (THEN) may forgive you your trespasses. But IF you do not forgive others, (THEN) neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

 

[Ronald Nolette]

He responds to the Holy Spirit's call. If there's no choice, then saying we must put our trust in God is ridiculous. That would be God putting his trust in himself.
The Spirit convicts, and we either submit or resist. If we have no free will, then any talking of resisting or submitting is nonsense.

"Ye stiffnecked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost! As your fathers did, so do ye!"

"Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."

Then why didn't He say so?

You still haven't shown biblically how an unsaved man who is in the flesh and thereby cannot please god is able to make any choice towards god! Especially in light of the Scriptures I have posted about we cannot even come to Christ unless impelled!

what about all the billions who died without Christ who never even heard a tiny part of teh gospel? Where was their choice? They are lost and never had a choice.

 

[Renniks]

Yes Israel is a national election. but it is an election of God.




Here is where you err.

Romans 9:

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

See verse 24??? He is now bringing the example of Israel in the prior verses and applying it to all starting in verse 19.

Nope, who is talking here?:

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Not the reader.

I'll give you a hint, it's the same person that's talking here:
Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

 

[Renniks]

Then why didn't He say so?

He did, as I already showed you.

 

[marks]

What part of this is hard to understand?

And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

Determinism is nonsense according to scripture.
God often makes "if" "then" statements to his people.

IF My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN will I hear from Heaven and heal their Land.”

IF you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, (THEN) you may say to this mountain, “Remove from here to over there; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”

When ye stand praying, forgive, IF ye have anything against anyone, so that your Father also, which is in Heaven (THEN) may forgive you your trespasses. But IF you do not forgive others, (THEN) neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

That's one of my issues also. God says, IF this, and IF that, and that all becomes window dressing, meaning, completely devoid of meaning, if we aren't making choices.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your answers are extremely simplistic.
And you didn't tell me where the Bible says God impels us to believe. You be also have no understanding of what corporate election actually means. You have a deterministic universe where God is doing everything and we are just along for the ride... That's Atheistic theory, except they substitute evolution for God...and it's not biblical.
God requires us to cooperate in our salvation. Otherwise, we are just pawns being moved around the board. And God is good and evil at the same time. Calvinist thought is based on Gnostic beliefs. The very early church had no concept of determinism, they believed in free will wholeheartedly.

Because it is simple! Why try to complicatre Divine Glorious Simplicity! The Words inspired are not hard or complicated!

NO I understand the corporate election of Israel despite your benighted conclusion of me.

NO I have not a deterministic universe. Just a biblical universe.

YOur last paragraph is just a vain lashing out with no merit. Ephesians 2 shows we do not cooperate. It is not God and our free will.

I keep telling you I care not what Calvin thinks. But Predestination, election and foreknowledge on an individual baisi is the way God saves people in the NT based on teh blood of Jesus and the determinate counsel of His will.

Paul and Jesus both had a predestination view of soteriology. Maybe the 3 and 4th century churches strayed and held to free will, but it is not biblical.

How can a man dead in sin have free will. How can a man enslaved to sin have free will? How can a man with a nature incapapble of pleasing God have free will? The only free he has is to continue living not pleasing god!

We are the elect from before Creation, we are predestined, and foreknown according to His will. That is the bible.
YOu offer philosophical reasonings without suppoort from Scripture.

show me one verse where unsaved men had free will. Do not go back to OT Israel for they were under a national election and had a different disepnsation with different rules than the church.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Usually when someone is placed on Ignore by someone, it is because that person now being ignored got through to the person who is placing them on Ignore, and they didn't like the truth that they were shown.

Well you are free to make any false assumptions about why I placed grail hunter on ignore you wish.

I will show you four.

Joshua 24:15, John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, Revelation 22:17.

Wrong, Joshua was speaking to the elect nation.

Teh other three are simply statements of fact. They do not say HOW a person can come or how a person receives. It just makes a simple statement that whoever does believe or come etc. God does things. they neither show free will or election . Grammar and voice and mood and tense are imprtant.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, your teaching is that the Israelites were born again of the Holy Spirit before Joshua gave the invitation.

Can you please tell me how that is possible, since the Holy Spirit was not even given until after Jesus rose from the dead (John 7:39)?

No it is not my teaching.