Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[Addy]

Praise God!

I'll take that and run with it... LOL

 

[Truther]

I'll take that and run with it... LOL

Amen.

 

[marks]

In the Revelation, this period is described in various ways, as a time, times and half a time, as 42 months, and as 1260 days. I think this is the time of Antichrist's uncontested rule, and that on the 1260 days he commits the atrocious crime of murdering the 2 Witnesses, which leads to the beginning of a challenge to his power.

My difficulty with this view is that if the beast is given power to overcome all people, how is it that the 2 witness cannot be killed? These are not speaking of the same 42 months.

If the beast has power to overcome, he can overcome the witnesses. If the witnesses cannot be killed, this shows the beast lacks that power.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That's why in the 5th seal we see martyrs, because the world is being exposed for its hostility towards God. The way they treat Christians is the way they treat God. And ultimately, in the 6th seal we are told the Day of Wrath is arriving. In the 7th Seal this is explained in detail to John.

Revelation 6:9-11
9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Compare this to . . .

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You notice that Revelation 6 speaks of their testimony, while Revelation 12 speaks of their testimony of Jesus Christ. Why do you suppose the difference there?

"until their fellowservants also and their brethren,"

Who are these, who are their fellowservants, and who are their brethren? And why the distinction?

Why are white robes given to them? What does that mean? And why are the "under the altar"?

These were they killed for their trust in God during the dispensation of Law. They will be joined by their brethren, Israelites, and fellowservants, Gentiles, killed under the dispensation of Law to come during these next days. And which survivers will be judged according to that Law at the Sheep/Goats judgment.

Those martyred before Christ had no testimony of Christ, but those martyred during this tribulation will have His testimony.

Much love!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Barney, why to you emulate that magazine over the Bible?

Who exactly are these writers?

Think about it.

Try thinking for yourself for once.

I had to, so you can too.

You can blame the watchtower all you want. The watchtower didn't teach me to read. I guess you and others who believe as you do believe that God when he was stating the punishment for disobedience to Adam, you believe he was talking to a mindless, empty shell body, since you don't believe God was talking to a person. If that's true you're very very seriously brainwashed.

 

[Truther]

You can blame the watchtower all you want. The watchtower didn't teach me to read. I guess you and others who believe as you do believe that God when he was stating the punishment for disobedience to Adam, you believe he was talking to a mindless, empty shell body, since you don't believe God was talking to a person. If that's true you're very very seriously brainwashed.

Just read your Bible, Barney.

You are intelligent enough to read and understand it without a magazine explaining it to you.

I cut all that extra Biblical stuff out myself several years ago and went cold turkey Sola Scriptura.

You, like I have been, will be shocked to find out which areas you have been duped in by the organization.

Try it, Barney...try it.

At first you will get the shakes, then cold chills, then the sweats and delirium, then the withdrawals will eventually subside and the Watchtower will be in the rear view mirror.

 

[Randy Kluth]

OK, I appreciate your sharing how you see this! So then you see the seals as describing in an overall sense revealing the state of Humanity's rebellion to God? Something like what might be called a Historical View? That these seals describe the events over the centuries as mankind becomes worse and worse?

Yes, I'm not a historicist interpreter in every case, but in this particular case, I don't pin the 7 sealed Scroll to any particular event, apart from the Return of Christ. And I do this because by my method of interpretation, I let the prophecy speak for itself. No particular event is mentioned, with no time frame. This is all pre-Coming.

My understanding of this 7 sealed scroll is that it marks the beginning of God's judgment upon the earth. Jesus prophesied false christs and prophets, famines and earthquakes and disease, wars and rumor of wars, not yet the end, but in escalating birth pangs.

I think that the escalating birth pangs of the present time will be enacted as judgments against the earth dwellers in the opening of these seals. In the 4 horsemen, false christs and false prophets, who seek their rule over the people, will become the Beast, conquering. The wars and rumors of wars will become violence spread throughout humanity. Famines and inflation/devaluation, and diseases, animal attacks, will all become extreme.

In short, the overall destabilization of the world shown in Jesus' prophecy of birth pangs, stopping, starting, increasing, will become continuous world conditions.

The on-again/off-again nature of the hostility of ecology to man, for instance, in the opening of the 4th seal the ecology will become simply hostile to man over 1/4 of the earth.

Yea, mention of 1/4th the earth is pretty specific, and I can't say why in my more historicist way of looking at this. It does sound like a particular event, but I'm not sure it has to be.

I don't tie the 7 Seals of Revelation to the Birth pains of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, although I do see a similarity between them. I believe the Birthpains were preliminary to the 70 AD judgment, and had to do, primarily, with Israel. But this judgment upon Israel just set the tone for how Christians all down through history would have to deal with paganism in their own society.

The 7 Seals of Revelation, therefore, represent a more universal scope, presenting birth pains of the coming Kingdom--not just preliminary to Israel's judgment. The world is about to be judged for the way they've treated Israel and for the way they've treated the Church.

Pagan nations or apostate Christian nations have been conquered and judged. Peace has not endured on this wayward world. Because they've not asked help from God, starvation and economic deprivation is a perennial problem. And because of their insistence on going their own way alone, their wickedness has increased, lending to great judgment in 1/4 of the world. I don't know what 1/4 of the world this refers to--it's just 1/4th of the world, perhaps throughout history. I'm open on this one.

In the opening of the first 4 seals, Government, Society, Economy, and Ecology are each transformed fundamentally to become hostile to humanity.

In the opening of the 5th seal I see a changing of the dispensation. I can explain that more if you like.

I'm always willing to hear ideas. That's what makes me go. :)

And in the opening of the 6th seal I see the sudden destruction that marks the beginning of the end as prophecied by Jesus, Paul, others.

In the opening of the 7th seal I see the beginning of the 70th Week, with the 144,000 Israelites sealed, and with the church standing before the throne of God in heaven.

I avoid conflation between different prophecies. I know there is a place for relating them, but it can also be a problem. I don't see the 70th Week as a future prophecy. I believe it was historically fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Jesus, which was cut off in the "midst of the Week." So the 70th Week was never meant to be completed. But it was completely fulfilled in history.

The 3.5 years is a completely different time frame, mentioned in Dan 7, and has to do with the Antichrist. It is not, I feel, Daniel's 70th Week.

The 144,000 is another subject best reserved for another place. I don't see it as literal, but as a symbolic preservation of a remnant of Israel down through history. At the end of the age, this Jewish remnant of Christian believers sets the stage for the full conversion of national Israel to a Christian state. This is the "Jewish Hope," foretold in the Prophets.

So in summary, I see the opening of the scroll to bring about the earthly conditions which will exist in during the 70th Week, and marking the beginning of God's judgment of this world.
Much love!

I see the Scroll as an initial blueprint of world conditions leading to world judgment at the coming of Christ, the beginning of a new age. And I see it as very general, which is explained in greater detail in the 2nd major vision of the book--the Beast Vision. The Beast Vision explains how world conditions will be in the last 3.5 years of the age, constituting a war between Christ and the Antichrist.

Thanks for your thoughts on this! :)

 

[marks]

I avoid conflation between different prophecies.

Why, I just lump them all together in one big prophecy ball!

Much love!

;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

I've studied and debated these things for many many years. And my view isn't exactly Calvary Chapel Standard Eschatology. But I follow as closely as I can an historical/grammatical hermaneutic.

Much love!

I appreciate that! Most often students/scholars look at previous theologies and eschatologies first. I don't at all think that's wrong. Others who have gone before have already beaten down a path for us. But we should, I think, go to them only for confirmation--not for the actual interpretations. We should let the Bible interpret itself!

For example, the Olivet Discourse, Daniel's 70th Week, and the 144,000 are so worn down by previous views that it's difficult to look at them from the Bible alone. We should, of course, look to how others before us have seen it. I seriously doubt God would wait for us to be born before instructing the Church in Scriptural truth! ;)

 

[marks]

Is the Rapture of the Gentile Church at the Second Coming of Christ?

I suggest this would be impossible according to Scripture.

When Jesus returns, the "chosen" are gathered. After Jesus sits on His throne, the nations are gathered. Imagine you lived in that day when Jesus spoke these words. Imagine you are an Israelite, and you've known all your life that out of all the nations, Israel had been chosen by God.

Imagine you, an Israel, of the chosen nation, heard Jesus prophesy, the chosen will be gathered, and then the nations will be gathered and judged.

Who are the chosen, and who are the nations? I suggest the answer is evident, the chosen nation Israel, and all the other nations, the Gentiles.

Some will say the chosen who are gathered in Matthew 24 includes the Gentile church. Could this be true? The problem with this suggestion is we have to go on to ask, "Who then are the 'righteous', the sheep, in Matthew 25?"

These are declared the righteous from among the nations. But if the gentile righteous - the church - are gathered along with Israel, there are no sheep. They've already been gathered.

This would again be no surprise to the Israelites, who, from Joel 3, may well be expecting that God would return them to their land, and then gather and judge the Gentiles.

And then also, how are the nations judged? By their trusting in Jesus' death and resurrection? By being born again? No. They are judged according to how they treated other people, specifically, Jesus' brothers.

Who are Jesus' brothers in this context? Having already shown these are the Israelites gathered at Jesus' return, and the Gentile nations gathered when Jesus takes His throne, the Gentiles will be judged by how they treated the Isrealites, Jesus' brothers according to the flesh.

Specifically, this separation of the sheep from the goats is predicated not upon whether they believed in and received Jesus, it is based on whether they supplied or did not supply the needs of the Jews, Jesus' brothers. Those who did not are declared wicked, and will be sent away into punishment. Those who did will be declared righteous, and will be invited into the kingdom. This is a judgment of righteousness based on works.

I can only guess what the 2 witnesses will be prophesying. But one speculation I have is that they will be informing the world that Israel is God's chosen nation, and is to be treated accordingly.

And I can guess that the witnesses will be aiding the Jews flight from Judea by striking the beast armies with plagues, as the woman is carried by the wings of an eagle, same as how they were removed from Egypt.

The dragon will be getting ready to kill the woman, but the witnesses will be striking the earth with plagues preventing the armies of the beast from stopping her. Those who believe Jesus' prophecy will flee to the wilderness, where Elijah will be with them, preparing a people for the Lord, His bride making herself ready.

After the witness are killed, and ascend into heaven, angels begin to fly through the sky, as God's witness continues to be preached. I find God's instructions for this time in Matthew 10:

39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40) He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41) He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

I think this chapter gives instructions to the disciples as they were sent out, then the Apostles, then those at the end of the age, and finally, those during the great tribulation.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

There are, I think, a number of underlying conclusions we've reached on various things.

You've mentioned that Jesus defined the great tribulation as the diaspora.

In Matthew, Jesus prophesied that following the abomination of desolation, a future event at that time, there would be 'great tribulation', more than at any other time. And immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns and stops it.

So I follow along with Jesus' description of the time from the Abomination of Desolation to the time when Jesus returns as the time of greatest tribulation, or in the vernacular, the great tribulation.

Some see this abomination of desolation as "Satan sits in the hearts of the Christians" as an historical view idea.

But I see it as what Jesus said, the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place, and that this sets off a series of events ending with His return at Israel's request.

Regarding the 70th week, I've known several who have held to that view, all that remains is the "short trib", as one of them would say. I don't find that supported in Scripture myself.

Much love!

Yes, I'll get to the Great Tribulation and AoD later, because you ask about it later too.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What does this mean? I've been wondering that.

My main ways of learning Bible prophecy is firstly asking God for understanding, and then both reading and rereading chapters and books so I know what they all say, and can meditate on how they all work together, and by studying the words in detail, so I know what I'm reading and rereading means what I think it means.

And then I just follow along with what it all says.

Much love!

I do think we need to ask God for wisdom in how to *know* something. Earlier in my life I had a problem with double-mindedness. Every time someone with clout questioned my view, I doubted what I think God had shown me. 1st step: pray for wisdom. 2nd step: stop doubting *if* God has already shown you something *clearly.* Clarity comes not from a supposed "prophecy" from God, but rather, from a clear rationale.

3rd step: tracing the source of the author's thoughts. The Bible has an amazing way of developing motifs that can be traced all through the Scriptures. A major one is the redemption of Man after the Fall. It involves our relationship with God, as Adam had with God in the garden

A 2nd major theme is the covenant God made with Abraham. You will see this all through the Scriptures. In the OT Israel is in focus as a major player in this Covenant. But in the NT age, the Church is the other major player in this Covenant, and it includes both Israel and all nations.

So trace the origin of a theme in the Bible. And then stay consistent in applying it, recognizing that later Bible authors are seeing things the same way. What is seen in the OT is seen the same way in the NT, even though there is now an additional player.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There are certainly a number of different ways people look at the 70 weeks. But I again point to the timeline of the 2 witnesses and the power of the beast. This shows two back-to-back 3.5 year periods, with some of these plagues occuring during the first, and some during the second.

So I use the less ambiguous to help me understand the more ambiguous.

Much love!

So here is how I apply my interpretive method in this case. The origin of the 3.5 year period, mentioned in Revelation, is in Dan 7, where the Antichrist's Reign is being described. There is some confusion with a similar length of time being equated in the same book in connection with the reign of Antiochus 4. But basically, the 3.5 year time period comes from Dan 7 and Dan 12.7, all other 3.5 years periods largely relegated to the prophecy of Antiochus 4.

So if this theme of a 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist is to remain consistent from OT to NT, then we have to see John's Revelation as referring to this in just this way. Trying to add up two different sets of 3.5 years in the Revelation is just an unnecessary complication, and in fact, we are not explicitly told that there is a 7 year period, nor are we made to believe two sets of 3.5 years must be added together. I just let, in this case, the Bible speak for itself, and not add anything.

The 70th Week is looked at pretty consistently by the Church Fathers from an historicist perspective. All except perhaps two notable Church Fathers saw this as fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Jesus, and in the following massacre of the Jews in 70 AD. To someone transport a dated prophecy, that began in 457 BC and lasted for approx. 490 years, we cannot arrive in some time after the year 2020!

Anyway, this is how my own logic works, and how I believe God has helped me personally over a period of wrestling with these subjects for many years! ;)

 

[marks]

I appreciate that! Most often students/scholars look at previous theologies and eschatologies first. I don't at all think that's wrong. Others who have gone before have already beaten down a path for us. But we should, I think, go to them only for confirmation--not for the actual interpretations. We should let the Bible interpret itself!

For example, the Olivet Discourse, Daniel's 70th Week, and the 144,000 are so worn down by previous views that it's difficult to look at them from the Bible alone. We should, of course, look to how others before us have seen it. I seriously doubt God would wait for us to be born before instructing the Church in Scriptural truth! ;)

I was of course taught certain things at certain times. I find that I like to understand and consider all different views. There are often various ways to understand a single Scripture. Some people who seem to have the most outlandish views in my opinion have still contributed to my understandings.

So I look at the commentators and book writers, and speakers, and the Greek scholars, and the prophecy scholars, and yes, to take in the benefit of those who have gone before. Like you say, or, like Paul says, Did the Word of God come to me first? No.

But at the end of the day, the more views I enumerate, the more views which I can compare to the Scriptures. I find error is most often readily evident by it's contradiction to the text, but I find the real teachings seem to be more elusive, requiring a greater search, and submission to God's truth.

Do we have a dog in the fight? I don't. Truth sets us free. Truth is knowing God. There is no benefit to holding any false view for a moment. If I can discover an error I'm making I've gained tremendously!

But I also realize that bodies of doctrine have been built up over centuries, and I have no issue with the idea that as Christology seemed to occupy the first few centuries, that eschatology could similarly occupy the last few. And like Daniel wrote, there will be much increase in knowledge.

I completely agree with the Bible interpreting itself, even down to defining it's own words. It's all there. But I don't feel that the prophecies are difficult to look at for what they themselves, and the Bible itself, say in their own right.

We can understand all the different views and ways of approaching these prophecies, and then go on to read them and see if any or maybe none of them fit the text.

A simple example would be the abomination of desolation, as spoken by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place. I've heard people suggest that this was actually referring to Daniel's prophecy as fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. But when we compare to the prophecy, Jesus spoke in a futurist tense, "when you see", and so on. I'm not saying you think this, only that I've come across it. An easy example.

I've read Rosenthal and Gundry and others, Goodgame, I find it all very fascinating! But not even close to my fascination with the Bible itself. Again, for me, it's all about reading it all so much that I can know what all the parts say. And to study the words themselves so I have the best concept of what the writer originally meant when he wrote them.

And as I read about pre-wrath or post-trib or whatever other view, I can compare in my mind as I'm reading what the Bible says concerning the assertions made.

Goodgame is another easy example. He talks about the "earthquake rapture", that is, that the rapture happens during the worldwide earthquake, or immediately before it. He supports this idea with the assertion that all the resurrections in Scripture that were to immortal life were accompanied by earthquakes.

If we know the Scriptures, we can reflect through all the resurrections, and other passages which may have a bearing. Jesus' resurrection was with an earthquake. The resurrection of those when Jesus died was with an earthquake. The resurrection of the two witnesses will have an earthquake. Now, temper this list with the fact that we don't know of a certainty that those who came alive when Jesus died, that these were raised immortal. Certain church tradition holds that they ascended to heaven when Jesus did. But the Bible itself is not explicit about that.

IF Elijah and Enoch were given immortality when they were taken into heaven, there was no earthquake mentioned. But we don't know for a fach either way for both men.

And, there is a worldwide earthquake foretold just before an innumerable multitude from all peoples and nations appears in heaven before God's throne.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I couldn't find this, where Jesus said the great tribulation would be the diaspora, could you be more specific where you are looking in that chapter?

Much love!

So here I'll explain how my method of interpretation treats this. I have to say this because lately espousing my view has been very unpopular. I don't blame people for not trusting me. Unfortunately, current prophetic views dominate, and lack any historical depth in looking at this.

I would urge you to not just look at this as *my view,* but as an "historical view," because I don't believe God waits for you and me to speak Scriptural truth to the Church in history. If He gave the Church Scriptures, it is not logical that nobody in history would be able to interpret it properly or to even apply it in their lives. It was given them precisely so that it *would* help them!

The Olivet Discourse sets the context for its prophecy pretty plainly. It is about the 70 AD destruction of the temple--it's about Jewish punishment!

Luke 21.5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

Jesus is being asked to conflate 2 prophecies together, the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and his 2nd Coming at the end of the age. Jesus answered by stating, matter of fact, that he was going to visit judgment upon Jerusalem *in this generation,* ie in the generation of his apostles, generally speaking. He actually waited patiently until the very end of a "generation" to bring about this judgment.

Jesus indicated his Coming was less a timing matter, but more a matter of staying spiritually and morally prepared for eternal judgment all the time. The timing of his Coming is incidental to staying spiritually prepared by living a clean life. By contrast, the 70 AD judgment had signs all around to indicate war was coming, and Israel would be judged. Their sins were transparent and terrible--judgment was positively coming soon.

So here we have Jesus explain the "Jewish punishment," describing it as an age-long "Great Tribulation." It was "great" not because it was more deadly than other judgments, but only because it would *last longer* than any other period of punishment in Jewish history.

Luke 21.20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Keep in mind the time frame here. This is still OT, and Israel is still God's exclusive Chosen People. So Jesus is here acting as a prophet to Israel, telling them about their future as a nation, just as the Prophets had done before him.

But this also has value for the Church, because Jewish believers would have to go through at least some of the troubles caused by this Jewish sin and by this Jewish punishment. They also would suffer exile--they would have to escape. And they would be persecuted by the majority of Jews rejecting Jesus.

This is an example for Christians in other nations all down through the ages, because Christian nations have formed, just like Israel, who were chosen nations of God. And they, like Israel, fell into apostasy, and persecuted the righteous. Christians can really learn from the Olivet Discourse!

I do believe the Great Tribulation is a Jewish Punishment, in the context of the Olivet Discourse. But in principle, it is a period that extends throughout the NT age, far beyond 70 AD, and includes all nations and all believers. And it will, of course, also encompass the last 3.5 years of the age. Only I think that we have to apply the terminology pretty much as Jesus used it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

My difficulty with this view is that if the beast is given power to overcome all people, how is it that the 2 witness cannot be killed? These are not speaking of the same 42 months.

If the beast has power to overcome, he can overcome the witnesses. If the witnesses cannot be killed, this shows the beast lacks that power.
Much love!

So many times I run into issues that can be resolved by understanding the biblical use of exaggerated language. This does not mean we can't take truth literally--it's just that language forms are intended to be applied less technically at times. If I say "the whole world's in a mess," it is intended to be a general statement. It is not intended to mean that literally every house in the world is turned upside down, and is disgustingly filthy from floor to ceiling. ;)

The whole world, generally, will worship the Beast. It means that the world will remain dominated by sin and its interests until the coming of Christ's Kingdom. That's true now, and will be true when the Beast rises.

This does not mean that the Beast will control every person in the world, and have every Christian killed. On the contrary, we are told some Christians will "remain until he comes." And we know, from Daniel, that the Beast's empire is limited to only 10 nations and 7 leaders.

When the Scriptures say the Beast seems indomitable, it is only saying he is a superpower, with nations disinclined to challenge his power and authority. In the end, obviously his unquestioned authority is challenged, and Armageddon eventually erupts.

At the end of 3.5 years of unquestioned power, the Antichrist will kill the 2 prophets who have through this time been warning the world about him. This may be the thing that sets in motion God's intention to bring the world against him. It may be the last straw in what God allows him to do, after he has already had many Christians murdered in Europe. To put to death these 2 major witnesses against him is an attempt to end the testimony of the Gospel against him, and God decides to put an end to his own boastful claims.

After the 1260 days I personally believe there will be a small period of time when nations gather to Armageddon. How long this mobilization of great nations will take I don't know, but it won't be in one day! I base this on:

Rev 11.14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

That little statement, "coming soon," may indicate the period of time it takes for Armageddon to mobilized.

Rev 16.12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

[marks]

3rd step: tracing the source of the author's thoughts. The Bible has an amazing way of developing motifs that can be traced all through the Scriptures. A major one is the redemption of Man after the Fall. It involves our relationship with God, as Adam had with God in the garden

We have to be careful with this one. Some people I know equate the spiritual state of the born again child of God to be exactly the same as Adam before the fall, but I do not.

Adam met with God in the cool of the day. We are united with God as His spiritually born children. Adam was God's creation, called beni Elohim as were the angels, but Adam was never said to have been begotten by God, as we were.

Redemption places us in a very different state than what Adam experienced, I think. Perhap had Adam eaten from the tree of life before having eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? But then he would have been immortal and uncorrupted. We have eternal life, but we are not yet immortal. We remain in corrupted bodies, but have God living inside us.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Revelation 6:9-11
9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Compare this to . . .

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You notice that Revelation 6 speaks of their testimony, while Revelation 12 speaks of their testimony of Jesus Christ. Why do you suppose the difference there?

"until their fellowservants also and their brethren,"

Who are these, who are their fellowservants, and who are their brethren? And why the distinction?

Why are white robes given to them? What does that mean? And why are the "under the altar"?

These were they killed for their trust in God during the dispensation of Law. They will be joined by their brethren, Israelites, and fellowservants, Gentiles, killed under the dispensation of Law to come during these next days. And which survivers will be judged according to that Law at the Sheep/Goats judgment.

Those martyred before Christ had no testimony of Christ, but those martyred during this tribulation will have His testimony.

Much love!

I don't see these martyrs as OT saints, but rather, as Christian saints perhaps in addition to the OT saints. In my view the 1st major vision, the Scroll Vision, deals with generalities about the entire NT age before Christ's Kingdom. The 2nd major vision, the Beast Vision, specifies the endtime context in which this all comes to an end in a final 3.5 year period.

The "saints yet to be killed" are those who will be killed in Europe by the Beast. That is why the Great Harlot Babylon, who is Rome, is mentioned.

Rome existed, of course, in the time of Christ, but extends all the way to the end of the age, as Daniel depicts it in ch. 7. This 4th and last Beast appears in the last days under Antichrist's control.

This Antichristian Empire persecutes Christians in the last days, and is what John is describing in the Beast Vision. Ultimately, the Antichrist Empire is judged for doing that in the 7 Vial judgments. These saints, also "to be martyred," are Christians who suffer under the Antichrist.

 

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So trace the origin of a theme in the Bible. And then stay consistent in applying it, recognizing that later Bible authors are seeing things the same way. What is seen in the OT is seen the same way in the NT, even though there is now an additional player.

I'd have to know more what you mean specifically here. Love is first mentioned as the love of a father for the son he must sacrifice. Love is consistenly mentioned in this theme, and applies to all of us.

Promised land allotments are not for the gentiles, however, not as I understand things. God has various ways of doing things with different people and in different times. There are prophecies for Israel which will be fullfilled with Israel. Being a "child of faithful Abraham" does not give me, a gentile, a land grant in Israel. But it will give one to the Israelite who receives Jesus when He comes again.

But then, we, the gentile church, will have put on incorruptability, and immortality, and why will we care about a plot of ground? But the Israelites, and the gentiles who survive the tribulation, and Jesus' judgment, they will receive places in the earth. Israel will be for the Jews, with the 12 Apostles judging the 12 tribes, and David as king over them. Jesus is the King of Kings, and will rule the earth from Jerusalem, and every cooking pot in Jerusalem will be used for temple service.

Much love!

 

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So many times I run into issues that can be resolved by understanding the biblical use of exaggerated language. This does not mean we can't take truth literally--it's just that language forms are intended to be applied less technically at times. If I say "the whole world's in a mess," it is intended to be a general statement. It is not intended to mean that literally every house in the world is turned upside down, and is disgustingly filthy from floor to ceiling. ;)

The whole world, generally, will worship the Beast. It means that the world will remain dominated by sin and its interests until the coming of Christ's Kingdom. That's true now, and will be true when the Beast rises.

This does not mean that the Beast will control every person in the world, and have every Christian killed. On the contrary, we are told some Christians will "remain until he comes." And we know, from Daniel, that the Beast's empire is limited to only 10 nations and 7 leaders.

You are speaking of the reach of the beast's power, I'm speaking of the nature of the beast's power. It will have power to overcome any and all. Now, it if doesn't get it's hands on someone, if they elude the beast, the beast cannot enact its power over them.

The thing of it is, the 2 witness cannot be hurt, much less killed. So it's not about whether the beast can get to them or not, even if it does, it can't kill them. The beast will not have the power to hurt these two.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

For 3.5 years, the beast will not be able to make war with these 2 saints, and will not be able to overcome them. So by the plain meaning of what I'm reading, the beast will not have been given that power while those 2 saints CANNOT be harmed.

Not that they are successfully hiding, rather, the beast lacks the power to hurt them.

Much love!