The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Renniks]

not putting you down - explaining what follows from your belief.. do you want me to go step by step ?

I am the one who gets constantly demonized in here .. as the majority share your literalist perspective - but I can handle the heat.

You want to say that Jesus and God are the same - equal in all ways - no difference .. OK .. then that was Jesus - doing the dirty deeds. You can't handle the thought of Jesus dolling out OT style punishment ? .. Ohh .. but Jesus isn't like that anymore now is he .. turned a new leaf e did ... and good thing too. Jesus didn't love the world so much back then tho did he ?

Not much love was felt when supposed Church of Jesus got power now was there. ... was this God's grand Plan ? .. was Jesus back to his old ways ?

OK .. hmmm .. once Jesus is elevated to the status of the Most High .. and my Church gets power .. then will the 1000 years of horror begin .. led by my Church ... surely this was God's grand Plan ... and from this era comes the dogma you worship..

cept one branch of Christianity .. What is referred to today as Orthodox - who managed to not engage in the horrors of the Catholic branch of the Universal Church.

This branch also believes in Faith - but works are there too
This branch also believes in the Trinity .. but slightly different than the Catholic version .. and they have maintained a little of the mysticism of the old church .. the last remnants of subordinatism just under the surface.

Perhaps there are not more than one way to skin a cat .. perhaps there are .. spin the wheel .. which one do you choose ?

I don't see what your issue is, honestly. You are just making stuff up. I never said Jesus wasn't the one "doing the dirty deeds" although I would not call them dirty, but justice. God has always been both love and justice and as the only one who can judge men's hearts, he obviously knows who can be saved and who can't. What is physical life to an infinite being?
I also never claimed the Catholic church didn't stray terribly from the teachings of scripture. And I never said works weren't important. So...who are you arguing with?
I'm not orthodox but I can appreciate some of their teachings. I don't buy regeneration by water or icons, because they are not scriptural, IMO.

 

[Renniks]

What literal history in genesis did Jesus treat as such ? Don't recall Jesus mentioning much about the Flood . you have brought up an interesting point though..

What does Jesus mention about the OT that you were thinking about ?

I just keep assuming you know the Bible. My bad.

"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Of course .. that is what James is saying - and this is clear in the text with out insertions but - yes that is what the text means.

Do you see James speaking of two justifications here, one by faith and another by works, both being necessary for salvation, or do you see him talking about a single justification accomplished in believing and then working?

 

[ChristisGod]

I just keep assuming you know the Bible. My bad.

"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Yes Jesus refers to Genesis creation account and the writings of Moses numerous times in the N.T.

Only a blind person would deny the obvious.

 

[brightfame52]

Considering all the scriptures you posted, we find that the requirements of salvation are:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:10)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47 KJV)

On condition we remain steadfast until the end:
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (Hebrews 3:6 KJV)

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Hebrews 3:14 KJV)

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (Matthew 10:22 KJV)

Luke 8:13 tells us those who fall away initially believed.
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (Luke 8:13 KJV)

Conclusion:
1) No one can be certain of their salvation until they meet with the Lord in Glory.

2) The faint-hearted believer who did not continue long in the faith still believed initially.

3) The unbeliever, (the atheist) CANNOT fall away because they never believed and are already lost. The people in peril are believers who lose faith, their end is worse than their beginning, it would have been better if they had never been born. As they did once believe they cannot be accused by OSAS of never believing. The teaching of OSAS that people cannot fall by the wayside as taught by Jesus in parable is false.

In summery, we are warned against losing faith, we are enjoined to believe until the end, and neither can we be certain of our salvation until we meet the Lord in Glory.

There's no requirement for salvation that Christ the Saviour didn't meet. If He died for one that in and of itself saves them with a everlasting salvation.

 

[Cooper]

There's no requirement for salvation that Christ the Saviour didn't meet. If He died for one that in and of itself saves them with a everlasting salvation.

Very true.

Whether or not we accept Christ's gift of eternal salvation by believing in Him and accepting Him into our heart and life, is down to the individual.

 

[Heyzeus]

I just keep assuming you know the Bible. My bad.

"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

NO mention of every land creature being killed .. all good in the hood :) And only an idiot thinks someone has to know every passage in the Bible from Memory to "know the Bible"..

 

[Heyzeus]

I don't see what your issue is, honestly. You are just making stuff up. I never said Jesus wasn't the one "doing the dirty deeds" although I would not call them dirty, but justice. God has always been both love and justice and as the only one who can judge men's hearts, he obviously knows who can be saved and who can't. What is physical life to an infinite being?
I also never claimed the Catholic church didn't stray terribly from the teachings of scripture. And I never said works weren't important. So...who are you arguing with?
I'm not orthodox but I can appreciate some of their teachings. I don't buy regeneration by water or icons, because they are not scriptural, IMO.

Your system of justice is quite warped .. violating Gods Law - that children are not to be killed for the sins of their parents .. This picture of Jesus turns him into a flip flopper as well. I just don't buy the irrational flip flopping God idea.

OK .. so you are not a sola fide adherent .. my bad if this is not your position.

Each faction has their idiosyncratic things ... I am more interested in doctrinal issues but I would not go so far as to say icon's are not scriptural.. perhaps not the pictures as we have them .. but certainly that the past souls are watching .. and perhaps helping out with a vision from time to time. Such as when the spirit of Samuel visits Saul.. Does not Paul claim to have visitations from the Holy Spirit .. there are also times when other spirits -- are talked about - along with other divinities and angels.

 

[brightfame52]

Very true.

Whether or not we accept Christ's gift of eternal salvation by believing in Him and accepting Him into our heart and life, is down to the individual.

It hasn't nothing to do with accepting. God accepted what Christ done to save His people. Since God accepted Christ Blood, all Salvation will be applied automatically to the ones He died for. Christ fulfilled all requirements

 

[Heyzeus]

I may not know everything about church history, but I know what my Bible says...

It says that the Holy Spirit forbad Paul to go and preach to Bithynia (Acts of the Apostles 16:7)...which was in the east...the descendants of those who lived in Bithynia would be the Eastern Orthodox Church.
.

Yes .. its what the Bible says - that the early Christian Churches spoke Greek - were in Greece - and were Greek - Letter the Corinthians - Greeks . Letter to the Thessolonians Greece Thessaloniki .. this is in northern Greece - Macedonia

At the time of the Roman Empire, about 50 A.D., Thessaloniki was also one of the early centers of Christianity; while on his second missionary journey, Paul the Apostle visited this city's chief synagogue on three Sabbaths and sowed the seeds for Thessaloniki's first Christian church. Later, Paul wrote two letters to the new church at Thessaloniki, preserved in the Biblical canon as First and Second Thessalonians. Some scholars hold that the First Epistle to the Thessalonians is the first written book of the New Testamen Thessaloniki - Wikipedia

Not sure what more to tell you mate - This was the early Church.

 

[BarneyFife]

So I must conclude that you don't believe the blood of Christ in and of itself applies salvation to those it was shed for. You believe instead that man's act of faith or believing does.

Nearly every time a sentence begins with "So I must conclude" a warning is given that a straw man argument will surely follow.

If one wishes to be taken seriously in debating, all-or-nothing thinking must be done away. If I insist my opponent has only choices A or B when there might possibly be a C or D, etc. choice available, I establish or support an existing adversarial system of discussion. It is is like saying "there are only two ways of viewing this subject and anyone who picks the one which is not my view is the enemy." We might as well be arguing Democratic vs. Republican politics. There is no kind, loving way to do this. It always alienates, no matter how politely or tastefully it is attempted. The participants of this thread have for nearly 2000 posts volleyed the same proof texts back and forth, over and over again. Nothing of any substance has been settled. Nothing.

Basically, one side believes that salvation is instant and irrevocable.

The other side believes that salvation can be received and later forfeited.

The arguing over these two positions causes all manner of misunderstanding about what grace, faith, salvation, works, etc. are. All kinds of accusations are made about other's beliefs without foundation.

How can Christ be honored by such a display of striving?

 

[ChristisGod]

NO mention of every land creature being killed .. all good in the hood :) And only an idiot thinks someone has to know every passage in the Bible from Memory to "know the Bible"..

so says the king of excuses

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes .. its what the Bible says - that the early Christian Churches spoke Greek - were in Greece - and were Greek - Letter the Corinthians - Greeks . Letter to the Thessolonians Greece Thessaloniki .. this is in northern Greece - Macedonia

At the time of the Roman Empire, about 50 A.D., Thessaloniki was also one of the early centers of Christianity; while on his second missionary journey, Paul the Apostle visited this city's chief synagogue on three Sabbaths and sowed the seeds for Thessaloniki's first Christian church. Later, Paul wrote two letters to the new church at Thessaloniki, preserved in the Biblical canon as First and Second Thessalonians. Some scholars hold that the First Epistle to the Thessalonians is the first written book of the New Testamen Thessaloniki - Wikipedia

Not sure what more to tell you mate - This was the early Church.

oh boy anyone with any claims of being a serious bible student knows for a fact that wiki is the most unreliable source and would not use it to make any case from the bible.

 

[brightfame52]

Nearly every time a sentence begins with "So I must conclude" a warning is given that a straw man argument will surely follow.

If one wishes to be taken seriously in debating, all-or-nothing thinking must be done away. If I insist my opponent has only choices A or B when there might possibly be a C or D, etc. choice available, I establish or support an existing adversarial system of discussion. It is is like saying "there are only two ways of viewing this subject and anyone who picks the one which is not my view is the enemy." We might as well be arguing Democratic vs. Republican politics. There is no kind, loving way to do this. It always alienates, no matter how politely or tastefully it is attempted. The participants of this thread have for nearly 2000 posts volleyed the same proof texts back and forth, over and over again. Nothing of any substance has been settled. Nothing.

Basically, one side believes that salvation is instant and irrevocable.

The other side believes that salvation can be received and later forfeited.

The arguing over these two positions causes all manner of misunderstanding about what grace, faith, salvation, works, etc. are. All kinds of accusations are made about other's beliefs without foundation.

How can Christ be honored by such a display of striving?

Huh? Are you going to answer the question

 

[Heyzeus]

oh boy anyone with any claims of being a serious bible student knows for a fact that wiki is the most unreliable source and would not use it to make any case from the bible.

Agreed that wiki can sometimes be unreliable .. but everything posted from wiki about the Church in Thessoloniki is true.

You have some serious denial going on.

 

[Cooper]

It hasn't nothing to do with accepting. God accepted what Christ done to save His people. Since God accepted Christ Blood, all Salvation will be applied automatically to the ones He died for. Christ fulfilled all requirements

I have never, ever read anything like that before. It is wrong on so many counts. Do you have scriptures for all that? If so, tell it to me.

 

[brightfame52]

I have never, ever read anything like that before. It is wrong on so many counts. Do you have scriptures for all that? If so, tell it to me.

None that you would believe. How were they perfected forever here in Heb 10:14

 

[Cooper]

None that you would believe. How were they perfected forever here in Heb 10:14

I see where you are coming from, I need to get my books out and study that and similar scriptures in the next few days, but for now, it is light out time. There are many strands in scripture and they all need to come together in unison as a complete whole. Good night.

 

[Heyzeus]

None that you would believe. How were they perfected forever here in Heb 10:14

I wouldn't bet the farm on that passage. This passage did not come from Paul's hand - and seems to express a later theological perspective - but either way .. something here does not make sense .. as there is no free pass through judgement .. no being made perfect while here on earth .. Our sin can be washed away and we be made perfect once we have passed through judgement.

That we must pass judgement is made clear by Jesus in the Synoptics - but Paul too says we must go through judgement in Romans - "The Jews first - and then the Gentiles" - paraphrasing - the Jews by the Law .. and the Gentiles by the law unto their conscience ..

 

[brightfame52]

I wouldn't bet the farm on that passage. This passage did not come from Paul's hand - and seems to express a later theological perspective - but either way .. something here does not make sense .. as there is no free pass through judgement .. no being made perfect while here on earth .. Our sin can be washed away and we be made perfect once we have passed through judgement.

That we must pass judgement is made clear by Jesus in the Synoptics - but Paul too says we must go through judgement in Romans - "The Jews first - and then the Gentiles" - paraphrasing - the Jews by the Law .. and the Gentiles by the law unto their conscience ..

So you ignored me question