What Keeps Us From Sinning In Heaven?

[Giuliano]

Not sure how it could be anymore obvious?
it’s taken about four years to get some of these weeds out of my head.

It took me a while to "unlearn" some things. . . . When I read Revelation and saw how John heard a trumpet and then was caught up to Heaven, that helped resolved a lot of questions I had had. John made it really obvious.

 

[Waiting on him]

Seems to me there may have been 5 living creatures at God's throne.

The Ox is the pinnacle of domestic animals, the lion the pinnacle of wild animals, the eagle of the birds, the man the pinnacle over these, leaving . . . another cherub . . . the dragon . . . the pinnacle of the reptiles.

Just a thought.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

 

[amadeus]

All the prayerful study could be vexation of spirit if the words of Solomon apply. Try unlearning some things instead of trying to learn more. Eve was trying to learn more -- look where she wound up.

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

 

[BarneyFife]

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

So, back to hijack the thread, then. Ok

 

[BarneyFife]

All the prayerful study could be vexation of spirit if the words of Solomon apply. Try unlearning some things instead of trying to learn more. Eve was trying to learn more -- look where she wound up.

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

So, since we seem to be off-topic, what have you unlearned lately?

 

[BarneyFife]

@BarnyFife
May I ask, since you included Lucifer, do you believe the elect angels could not sin? if so, what keeps them from sinning?

Tong
R1020

All of God's sentient creatures with higher powers of reasoning have free will. Period. (This is not an invitation to debate Calvinism). This is open to argument among various folks but not to my mind. Scripture indicates that the conflict between Christ and Satan is settled for the angels. The "elect angels" concept is based on one verse and lots of speculation. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates any angel will switch sides. Sinless nature + knowledge of Calvary = protection from future rebellion.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Honestly, what will our edge over Lucifer, and Adam and Eve be?

UPDATE: I can't understand why Christian people are so ready to tell people (even other Christians) whom they don't even know that they "don't understand the Gospel?" I'm not asking for informational purposes, and it's not meant to be a quiz or imply that I have knowledge unavailable to other Christians or even other people, in general. For many people, the Gospel is as simple as "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8) and for them, the rest is just window-dressing. More power to them, I say. I like to dig a little deeper, myself. My purpose here is simply to provoke thought and stimulate discussion. That's all. I'm not looking to "school" anybody. Honestly. I have a theory, but I'm not sure I'm anxious to put a bullseye on it right away. I don't believe that helps to encourage participation in a positive way. Whenever a line in the sand is drawn in a thread by the OP the conversation will (9 times out of 10) descend into a partisan debate, which is when the barbs really start to come out flying.

The thought question is very simple (however frustrating and elusive it may be to some):

What tangible thing will we have at our disposal that the 3 original sinners did not have that will keep us from falling as they did?

There are implications to this question that will occur to many, such as: fairness to the original 3 (e.g. will our advantage constitute unfairness to them?) For some of us, these implications can't just be summarily dismissed. God's honor must be vindicated. Many feel that full disclosure is very important to Him, à la John 16:12. The original 3 fell to temptation, albeit Lucifer somehow must have tempted himself and apparently did not repent as did the Edenic pair. I do not believe an explanation that involves just any theorized difference between our glorified nature and theirs is satisfactory. I pondered this question for over 40 years before stumbling onto an article that made me think there might actually be a solution.

Fact is both Adam and Eve could have chosen to be faithful to the True God. God didn't create Adam with the desire to sin. Still they sinned by being disobedient to The True God Jehovah. The Angels in heaven weren't created with the desire to sin yet one of those Angels became Satan the devil and he convinced other Angels to join him. The humans who will be living on earth after the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ will be without sin like Adam and Eve before they sinned yet they will still have free will. It doesn't mean they will have the desire to sin in them but just as Adam chose to be disobedient those sinless humans who are living on Earth after the Thousand year reign of Jesus Christ can still choose to be disobedient for some reason, the difference is that anyone who is disobedient at that time who is unrepentant will be destroyed by the True God Jehovah he will year allowing the rebellion to spread as it has for the last six thousand years of our time.

 

[Tong2020]

All of God's sentient creatures with higher powers of reasoning have free will. Period. (This is not an invitation to debate Calvinism). This is open to argument among various folks but not to my mind. Scripture indicates that the conflict between Christ and Satan is settled for the angels. The "elect angels" concept is based on one verse and lots of speculation. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates any angel will switch sides. Sinless nature + knowledge of Calvary = protection from future rebellion.

@BarnyFife
I was not asking if they have free will or not, as that is not the issue. My simple questions were "do you believe the elect angels could not sin? if so, what keeps them from sinning?"?

You said "There is nothing in Scripture that indicates any angel will switch sides." Does that mean you believe that those with Satan will remain to be with Satan, and those with God will remain to be with God? With regards the latter, since the subject of this thread is with those at the side of God, what keeps them in remaining to be at God's side and keep them from sinning?

Tong
R1021

 

[Giuliano]

View attachment 10282

Yes, indeed Dan is said to be a serpent. Have you noticed the tribe of Dan is missing in Revelation? Replaced. . . .

I would say the eagle nearby is said to have a serpent in its mouth. No, eagles don't eat serpents, but they can kill them. Confusion exists in some modern versions of the Bible when they substitute "vultures" for "eagles" -- but Jesus did say eagles, and he meant eagles.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, for even the unclean animals were saved from the flood. The ones outside of the ark died.

I wasn't talking about the ark.

 

[Giuliano]

So, since we seem to be off-topic, what have you unlearned lately?

There is not much left for me to unlearn. I feel confident of knowing only one thing for sure. The rest? Who knows? They could be like spots on a mirror obscuring the view so I see as through a glass darkly.

My opinion of you is changing however, but I'll remain mum on that, at least for now.

So, back to hijack the thread, then. Ok

Actually, we may be more on topic than many suppose. Eve was not content with not knowing. She did so long to be as wise as God. How many theologians read that in Genesis and say, "Maybe I should stop what I'm doing." No, they skip the lesson and go on. Then they spin theories about God as if they know what they're talking about.

We do not become perfect and sinless though the intellect alone. Indeed that path is a path in the wrong direction, one of vanity. Have faith in God that He has provided us everything we need. Be like the lilies of the field. God will take of you if you are like the lilies of the field. If you are a lily, do you need to understand what the sun is and how light works and how crophyll works? Or do you just praise God for having roots in the dirt and for being provided light, air and water?

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

If only Eve had accepted the fact that there are secret things which belong to God. . . . She may have found He revealed some of them to her later if she had done what she had been advised to do.

All of God's sentient creatures with higher powers of reasoning have free will. Period. (This is not an invitation to debate Calvinism). This is open to argument among various folks but not to my mind. Scripture indicates that the conflict between Christ and Satan is settled for the angels. The "elect angels" concept is based on one verse and lots of speculation. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates any angel will switch sides. Sinless nature + knowledge of Calvary = protection from future rebellion.

I guess that leaves Satan, Adam and Eve off the hook.

Some angels will change sides. You can even call them "gods" if you like. In the end, many of the fallen angels (or gods) will be restored to their proper positions after they repent.

Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

 

[Waiting on him]

There is not much left for me to unlearn. I feel confident of knowing only one thing for sure. The rest? Who knows? They could be like spots on a mirror obscuring the view so I see as through a glass darkly.

My opinion of you is changing however, but I'll remain mum on that, at least for now.

Actually, we may be more on topic than many suppose. Eve was not content with not knowing. She did so long to be as wise as God. How many theologians read that in Genesis and say, "Maybe I should stop what I'm doing." No, they skip the lesson and go on. Then they spin theories about God as if they know what they're talking about.

We do not become perfect and sinless though the intellect alone. Indeed that path is a path in the wrong direction, one of vanity. Have faith in God that He has provided us everything we need. Be like the lilies of the field. God will take of you if you are like the lilies of the field. If you are a lily, do you need to understand what the sun is and how light works and how crophyll works? Or do you just praise God for having roots in the dirt and for being provided light, air and water?

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

If only Eve had accepted the fact that there are secret things which belong to God. . . . She may have found He revealed some of them to her later if she had done what she had been advised to do.
I guess that leaves Satan, Adam and Eve off the hook.

Some angels will change sides. You can even call them "gods" if you like. In the end, many of the fallen angels (or gods) will be restored to their proper positions after they repent.

Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

Byrd post the other day that when men assemble r t hey desire to build towers, but Jesus desires that all valleys be filled and all mountains be leveled.

 

[Taken]

there is NO SIN IN HEAVEN we have reached our final stage of sanctification. if you think we have sin in heaven .i feel sorry for you and you need to read your Bible ..what do you think the glorified body is? it sure aint flesh and blood..

Not sure why you sent that post to me.
Of course there is no sin in Heaven.
I never said otherwise.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BarneyFife]

Hate nah, Jesus never needed to use big words, He had no one to impress. Jesus spoke plain and simple, you will never find Jesus telling anyone to exegete this or that, for Him its imply, this is the way it is, take it or leave it.

So you don't hate me; you just think I feel like I have to impress people. lol

 

[BarneyFife]

Fact is both Adam and Eve could have chosen to be faithful to the True God. God didn't create Adam with the desire to sin. Still they sinned by being disobedient to The True God Jehovah. The Angels in heaven weren't created with the desire to sin yet one of those Angels became Satan the devil and he convinced other Angels to join him. The humans who will be living on earth after the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ will be without sin like Adam and Eve before they sinned yet they will still have free will. It doesn't mean they will have the desire to sin in them but just as Adam chose to be disobedient those sinless humans who are living on Earth after the Thousand year reign of Jesus Christ can still choose to be disobedient for some reason, the difference is that anyone who is disobedient at that time who is unrepentant will be destroyed by the True God Jehovah he will year allowing the rebellion to spread as it has for the last six thousand years of our time.

You might want to check that last part of your hypothesis against the last few chapters of Revelation. Death and sinners are going to be a thing of the past.

 

[bbyrd009]

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Almost cheating, isn't it?

No son of man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins, dies

like candy from a baby, yeh
ok so i cheated, a little; but the premise remains
bc Jesus, as opposed to Christ i guess hmm

Bible Search: Jesus died for our sins
and lets face it we are mostly Jesus worshippers eh
Christ def takes a backseat most of the time
for me anyway

so anyway try again, sort of
no actual person literally died for our sins, to appease a capricious and vengeful God; that is Molech, eh?

and besides that we have a problem in our varying definitions of what constitutes an absolute truth i guess; so we need to clear that up. Objective evidence would be a min requirement i would think?

 

[BarneyFife]

@BarnyFife
I was not asking if they have free will or not, as that is not the issue. My simple questions were "do you believe the elect angels could not sin? if so, what keeps them from sinning?"?

You said "There is nothing in Scripture that indicates any angel will switch sides." Does that mean you believe that those with Satan will remain to be with Satan, and those with God will remain to be with God? With regards the latter, since the subject of this thread is with those at the side of God, what keeps them in remaining to be at God's side and keep them from sinning?

Tong
R1021

I gave the closest thing I could to a straight answer to the questions you posed. I don't give direct answers to questions which dictate terms or seem to be fishing for certain answer options. They often prove to be traps. This was Christ's way. When he objected to questions from the religious rulers of the day, He gave answers that protected his integrity. Some here like to call this "dodging." It is of no consequence to me how my answers are judged. I plant, another waters, and if the seed is good, God will give the increase.

As I have said before, the blood of Christ is the eternal antidote for sin. Even the angels that attend the throne room of God are not safe, except as they look to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world.

 

[BarneyFife]

No son of man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins, dies

like candy from a baby, yeh
ok so i cheated, a little; but the premise remains
bc Jesus, as opposed to Christ i guess hmm

Bible Search: Jesus died for our sins
and lets face it we are mostly Jesus worshippers eh
Christ def takes a backseat most of the time
for me anyway

so anyway try again, sort of
no actual person literally died for our sins, to appease a capricious and vengeful God; that is Molech, eh?

and besides that we have a problem in our varying definitions of what constitutes an absolute truth i guess; so we need to clear that up. Objective evidence would be a min requirement i would think?

No proof of God in a test tube, BByrd. Emperical evidence for God Himself doesn't exist, and He is the Arbiter of truth. If we're talking basic apologetics, I confess I've got one foot in the presuppositional camp.

 

[BarneyFife]

No son of man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins, dies

Paradox