Romans

[bbyrd009]

Inevitable why though?

Well...its like we have settled for the idea that we will never BE like Jesus, or can never be like Jesus, in this life. And yet He is our example of how to walk on earth.

And we have settled for the idea that no human can be law abiding in their heart while on earth, therefore Gods law is done away with.

so, Jesus from our pov was a sinless god/man, right, but see how the argument could be made that He broke every, single one of the Decalogue, too.

So then what is sin, if not a perception? Either our own, or others?
What is the fruit of "the knowledge of good and evil" iow?

and notice that maybe we are guilty of murder even if we have only "done murder" in our hearts bc maybe we will inevitably manifest actions that comport with our feelings there, and not just bc we have had a thought of murder?

plus i guess an overactive conscience might also play into this, as we are trained into perfectionism, rigt, by society? Mistakes are "bad" supposedly? Mistakes are even a "sin?"

 

[stunnedbygrace]

so, Jesus from our pov was a sinless god/man, right, but see how the argument could be made that He broke every, single one of the Decalogue, too.

Yes, sinless. Yes, with human understanding we could make that argument.

He showed us that we could do nothing without God, and everything with Him. He showed us what it looks like to walk in complete and unwavering trust and dependence on God.

 

[101G]

He showed us that we could do nothing without God, and everything with Him. He showed us what it looks like to walk in complete and unwavering trust and dependence on God.

not meaning to get into your conversation, but did our Lord and God break every Decalogue?, NO, I say again NO. "breaking" and "not keeping" is two different animales. our Lord did not break man's law, but he "Kept" God's Law.

was any Laws broken that was set by God or what man said that God said according to MAN?

no, he did not keep any or every false law of MAN, which is not of God. but men laws that was not of God he did not keep. so, not keeping man laws that is not in accordance with God laws is ok not to keep. Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" ... nor, Hebrews 13:9 "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein."

so yes, follow Jesus and in doing so ye fulfills God Joy, for obedience is better than sacrifice.

PICJAG

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I didnt follow bbyrds statement very far. My mind said, oh, he means that Jesus had anger in His heart at men when He overturned the tables, so yes, human reasoning could say that. But He judged rightly. His anger was...Gods anger.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, sinless. Yes, with human understanding we could make that argument.

He showed us that we could do nothing without God, and everything with Him. He showed us what it looks like to walk in complete and unwavering trust and dependence on God.

ok ya, but that is not how it will usually be perceived by those in the camp, right?
You will be called all kinds of sinner by well-meaning ppl eh

 

[stunnedbygrace]

ok ya, but that is not how it will usually be perceived by those in the camp, right?
You will be called all kinds of sinner by well-meaning ppl eh

Yes, but as I asked, why is inevitable? I mean, I know why for some. But why is it that even men who have received the Holy Spirit will fight against true teachings? Why will THEY insist that there is no walk in holiness as a possibilty?

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, sinless. Yes, with human understanding we could make that argument.

He showed us that we could do nothing without God, and everything with Him. He showed us what it looks like to walk in complete and unwavering trust and dependence on God.

iow you are going to get crucified for that right

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, but as I asked, why is inevitable? I mean, I know why for some. But why is it that even men who have received the Holy Spirit will fight against true teachings? Why will THEY insist that there is no walk in holiness as a possibilty?

ah well then we have the other end, who insist that once they are saved they cannot possibly sin, right

so i mean i could posit some reasons for both, surely there are more than one for each though, that we can all more or less relate to, or at least to experience with yeh? As you say, you know for some right, but there are prolly others too. And why do those on the other end of the bell-curve there feel the opposite? My guess is that it is best to experience both, and deny neither, that both may be overcome, basically

 

[Agios]

I agree. I have this thought that we will ACTUALLY fulfill the law if our faith grows enough.

We don't fulfill the law, Jesus already did that. Yet, the OP is talking about righteousness and now you've jumped to sinlessness.

Which one are you trying to convey?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We don't fulfill the law, Jesus already did that. Yet, the OP is talking about righteousness and now you've jumped to sinlessness.

Which one are you trying to convey?

I'm trying to talk about BOTH.

I guess fulfill versus keep vs being law abiding is not a matter I would want to count frog hairs on.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

iow you are going to get crucified for that right

Yes. Willingly, as strange as it sounds.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

ah well then we have the other end, who insist that once they are saved they cannot possibly sin, right

Hmm....yes, one side says it will always be impossible to not sin and the other side says it is impossible to ever sin again.

Of course, there are a lot of nutty variations on a theme too, but you have broken it down quite accurately.

 

[marks]

stunnedbygrace said: ↑

Yes, sinless. Yes, with human understanding we could make that argument.

He showed us that we could do nothing without God, and everything with Him. He showed us what it looks like to walk in complete and unwavering trust and dependence on God.

iow you are going to get crucified for that right

Why? That's the basic's of Christianity.

:

 

[Agios]

I'm trying to talk about BOTH.

I guess fulfill versus keep vs being law abiding is not a matter I would want to count frog hairs on.

It is worth splitting hairs when Jesus already fulfilled the law in us, and your statement says that maybe we will actually fulfill the law.

What Jesus did for us is grace, we just need to realize this law is already fulfilled in us, through the work of Christ, and walk as He walked in righteousness.

People believe grace is something that is given and then we don't have to apply the grace given to us. It's like if a child climbs a tree and can't get back down, Father's arms are outreached to catch you, but you have to jump into them. So it is grace, but what will we do with that grace?

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes. Willingly, as strange as it sounds.

ya, i guess we just have to rely on justice after the fact, so to speak
seems weird until the shoe is on the other foot i guess huh
i mean thats how i learned anyway

Hmm....yes, one side says it will always be impossible to not sin and the other side says it is impossible to ever sin again.

Of course, there are a lot of nutty variations on a theme too, but you have broken it down quite accurately.

ha but a little kid, she could wipe her diaper all over our walls and get a pass right lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Why? That's the basic's of Christianity.

:

well, my guess would be bc the world is not pleased with being shown up for what they rep or whatever?
I mean, why was Christ crucified, marks? And why are we called to follow by picking up our own cross?

 

[marks]

well, my guess would be bc the world is not pleased with being shown up for what they rep or whatever?
I mean, why was Christ crucified, marks? And why are we called to follow by picking up our own cross?

I have no idea how you would answer those questions. Or what they even mean to you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It is worth splitting hairs when Jesus already fulfilled the law in us, and your statement says that maybe we will actually fulfill the law.

What Jesus did for us is grace, we just need to realize this law is already fulfilled in us, through the work of Christ, and walk as He walked in righteousness.

People believe grace is something that is given and then we don't have to apply the grace given to us. It's like if a child climbs a tree and can't get back down, Father's arms are outreached to catch you, but you have to jump into them. So it is grace, but what will we do with that grace?

Okay you win. Jesus kept Gods law so we don't have to be law abiding.

 

[amadeus]

Yes, but as I asked, why is inevitable? I mean, I know why for some. But why is it that even men who have received the Holy Spirit will fight against true teachings?
Why will THEY insist that there is no walk in holiness as a possibilty?

If they really are insisting this and/or they are fighting against 'true teachings'[what are these?], then either they have never received the Holy Spirit... or they have moved deeply into delusion.

I try to be very careful to avoid pointing at someone and saying they do not have the Holy Spirit. Of course IF God has made it clear to me that that is the case and He has also made it clear to me that He wants me to expose them then I cannot fight against God... But otherwise it may be best to remain silent. In actual experience God has shown me some who claimed having the Holy Spirit and be led by the Holy Spirit, who did not and were not... but God has not thus far had me openly declared such a thing to a person... His time and His place for His purpose!

 

[Agios]

Okay you win. Jesus kept Gods law so we don't have to be law abiding.

I have NO idea where this comment came from.

Jesus fulfilled the law in us, doesn't mean we don't follow the law of the Spirit. It means ALL the Old Testament laws were fulfilled in Jesus.

Do you want to keep all the 600 laws of the Israelites? Of course not, that's why they were all fulfilled in Christ and now we follow the law of the Spirit.

No Christian should ever say they follow the law (Mosaic and they should never say they are "under law"). We are free in Christ, in Christ is how we walk as Jesus walked.