Gabriel’s message to Daniel is extremely relevant

[Randy Kluth]

[Enoch]No you are not willing to learn or be corrected! As is true for all those who refuse to allow the Bible to show them the truth.

That's judgmentalism. All I can do is tell you I'm willing to be corrected, and am seeking more proof that a "future" interpretation of Daniel's 70th Week existed *all through Christian history?*

Rather than divert this discussion into something personal, why don't you deal with this question?

[Enoch]
I showed you from Scripture why the Gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel is a divine necessity. And you continue to post this garbage about Francisco Ribera. And then add "Catholic" for good measure, as though Catholics are never able to grasp Bible truth.


You are reading info into my post that I *did not say,* nor did I even infer it. I as a habit rely on a lot of Catholic material, despite the fact I am a Protestant. There is no necessary "gap" between the 69th and the 70th weeks. That is irrational, in my opinion. But to say it is a "divine necessity" goes over the top! Now you're turning a reasonable discussion into a mandate from God with you being the prophet?

[Enoch]
The fact of the matter is that the Protestant Reformers continued to teach the false doctrines of the Catholic Church regarding Bible prophecy. But Ribera actually studied the Bible and exposed the falsity of your beliefs. Here is what he proposed, which is totally scriptural:

"Then, he proposed,the antichrist, a single individual, would:

• Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
• Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
• Abolish the Christian religion.
• Deny Jesus Christ.
• Be received by the Jews.
• Pretend to be God.
• Kill the two witnesses of God.
• Conquer the world."

So what you should now do is post a public apology to Ribera (and myself) since he was right on the money.

Apologize for what? I didn't address those things--I was addressing the "Gap" notion regarding the 69th and 70th Weeks! ;)

I never said I had a problem with Catholic Ribera--*you* said that! My problem with him is that he proposed this "Gap" theory of Daniel's 70th Weeks. I don't even have the book--I wish I did!

I'm fully on board with his Futurism. I don't agree with my fellow Protestants in history who believed the Catholic Church was THE Antichrist--the Antichrist was, as yet, future in that time!

I am indeed a futurist, just as Ribera was. And I'm thankful for his contribution. I'm also grateful for Darby's contribution to the future hope of Israel. And yet, I would criticize his Pretrib doctrine, as well. I can chew gum and walk at the same time. I can criticize somebody and like some things they said at the same time.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The only way I can see it is the 69th week was the first Triumphant Week where in the middle Christ died on the Cross. The 70th week is the Second Coming, the next Triumphant Week. This has not happened yet, because Satan interrupts the week, and given a 3.5 year period of terror on earth. Neither have happened yet. So, by logic alone, nothing has happened to the degree that the 70th week has been completed. The 70th week is still in the future and has been since Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead. So if the weeks happened back to back, the last 1990 years would not exist.

Yea, that is a more reasonable approach, that the 70th Week was not actually completed. I used to hold to that position, but don't any longer. Since it seems unreasonable for me to treat a "70 Weeks Period" as though divided up, I had to deal with the 70th Week differently. Now I see the 70th Week as fulfilled not as a whole Week, but only as a half Week. It ended when Jesus was "cut off." Following that, the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in that generation.

 

[Timtofly]

Yea, that is a more reasonable approach, that the 70th Week was not actually completed. I used to hold to that position, but don't any longer. Since it seems unreasonable for me to treat a "70 Weeks Period" as though divided up, I had to deal with the 70th Week differently. Now I see the 70th Week as fulfilled not as a whole Week, but only as a half Week. It ended when Jesus was "cut off." Following that, the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in that generation.

The point is that Daniel 9:24-26 says:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and for your holy city for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place.
25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks,Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.

That takes care of 69 weeks. 7 weeks until restoration. Then 62 weeks until The Cross. 62 plus 7 equals 69. But the destruction of the temple in 70AD is included in that thought. The 70th week has nothing to do with Titus. Daniel 9:27:

27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

This 7 year period was not any 7 years surrounding Titus and the destruction in 70AD. For one Titus killed millions of Jews nonstop from April to August. That was 5 months not years. There was no 7 year treaty between Rome and the Jewish rebellion. In fact the Jews themselves did not even get along, and when one did kill the other is when Titus took advantage of the situation and attacked. That last week of years and a single 7 day period has never happened until now. The 7 years started last October or November when covid19 started. There will only be 3.5 years of God’s judgments and then 3.5 years of Satan to desolate the earth. Then the 70th week will all be over. The church age and all governments will have come to an end as well.

Logically it is impossible for you to say it already happened when you pointed out someone in the 1500's thought it was in the future. My hunch is that he would be more correct than you trying to correct him. Not to mention the NT was still not a Canon until at least the 200's, and the early church itself would have claimed 70AD was the 70th week. Since they did not, and it is happening now, speculation can come to an end.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The point is that Daniel 9:24-26 says:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and for your holy city for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place.
25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks,Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.

That takes care of 69 weeks. 7 weeks until restoration. Then 62 weeks until The Cross. 62 plus 7 equals 69. But the destruction of the temple in 70AD is included in that thought. The 70th week has nothing to do with Titus. Daniel 9:27:

27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

This 7 year period was not any 7 years surrounding Titus and the destruction in 70AD. For one Titus killed millions of Jews nonstop from April to August. That was 5 months not years. There was no 7 year treaty between Rome and the Jewish rebellion. In fact the Jews themselves did not even get along, and when one did kill the other is when Titus took advantage of the situation and attacked. That last week of years and a single 7 day period has never happened until now. The 7 years started last October or November when covid19 started. There will only be 3.5 years of God’s judgments and then 3.5 years of Satan to desolate the earth. Then the 70th week will all be over. The church age and all governments will have come to an end as well.

Logically it is impossible for you to say it already happened when you pointed out someone in the 1500's thought it was in the future. My hunch is that he would be more correct than you trying to correct him. Not to mention the NT was still not a Canon until at least the 200's, and the early church itself would have claimed 70AD was the 70th week. Since they did not, and it is happening now, speculation can come to an end.

No, on several counts.
1) The canon clearly existed before it officially became canon. It makes no difference when it officially became canonized Scripture! The word of the apostles and of the early Christian leaders is sufficient authority to establish Christian doctrine. And Jesus clearly interpreted the 70 Weeks as already fulfilled when he, in Luke 21, identified the Abomination of Desolation as the 70 AD event and as the endpoint of the 70 Weeks prophecy.

2) The fact someone in the 1500s said something about a future interpretation of the 70 Weeks is not authoritative and hardly commends it as the orthodox teaching. Before that, the best I know is that the 70th Week was fulfilled in the death of Christ.

3) Jesus is said to be "cut off" after the 69 Weeks. This doesn't mean he was cut off *during* the 69 Weeks but only *afterwards,* which would logically be in the 70th Week!

4) The prophecy of the 70 Weeks does *not* say that the fall of Jerusalem takes place *within* the 70 Weeks. The prophecy of Jerusalem's destruction, along with the temple, is implied to *follow* the 70 Weeks prophecy. It is the outcome of many years of Jewish rebellion, culminating in the rejection of Chirst.

 

[Timtofly]

No, on several counts.
1) The canon clearly existed before it officially became canon. It makes no difference when it officially became canonized Scripture! The word of the apostles and of the early Christian leaders is sufficient authority to establish Christian doctrine. And Jesus clearly interpreted the 70 Weeks as already fulfilled when he, in Luke 21, identified the Abomination of Desolation as the 70 AD event and as the endpoint of the 70 Weeks prophecy.

2) The fact someone in the 1500s said something about a future interpretation of the 70 Weeks is not authoritative and hardly commends it as the orthodox teaching. Before that, the best I know is that the 70th Week was fulfilled in the death of Christ.

3) Jesus is said to be "cut off" after the 69 Weeks. This doesn't mean he was cut off *during* the 69 Weeks but only *afterwards,* which would logically be in the 70th Week!

4) The prophecy of the 70 Weeks does *not* say that the fall of Jerusalem takes place *within* the 70 Weeks. The prophecy of Jerusalem's destruction, along with the temple, is implied to *follow* the 70 Weeks prophecy. It is the outcome of many years of Jewish rebellion, culminating in the rejection of Chirst.

The biggest fault in your arguments is the point of the Second Coming. Are you saying that happened 2000 years ago? Are we in the new heavens and earth now? I am sorry, but the 70th week is now, not thousands of years ago.

 

[Nancy]

[QUOTE="Enoch111, post: 730145
[/QUOTE]

Not that I know allot about end times but, I still find it very interesting. When reading"
"26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

And, who destroyed the city in AD 70? Rome...So, at least during that time, the "people of the prince" (prince meaning Satan) were those who destroyed the city and the temple - Rome...seems all roads lead to Rome, lol

 

[Randy Kluth]

The biggest fault in your arguments is the point of the Second Coming. Are you saying that happened 2000 years ago? Are we in the new heavens and earth now? I am sorry, but the 70th week is now, not thousands of years ago.

No, you seem to be assuming that the 70 Weeks was supposed to lead to the New Heavens and the New Earth? That doesn't follow. The 70 Weeks were intended to lead to Jesus being "cut off," and then the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary." The prophecy, in other words, was intended to be fulfilled historically.

Of course I'm not saying the 2nd Coming happened 2000 years ago! What happened 2000 years ago is Jesus died and the temple fell. The Jews went into Great Tribulation, which is the Jewish Diaspora, and will only fully end at Christ's Return.

Most people today seem to think the Great Tribulation is the reign of Antichrist. It isn't. That is only the end of the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the Jewish Punishment that Jesus said would come upon the Jewish People after 70 AD. And it was a judgment for having rejected their Messiah. The Jews will be restored as a spiritual nation, but only after Christ returns.

 

[Timtofly]

No, you seem to be assuming that the 70 Weeks was supposed to lead to the New Heavens and the New Earth? That doesn't follow. The 70 Weeks were intended to lead to Jesus being "cut off," and then the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary." The prophecy, in other words, was intended to be fulfilled historically.

Of course I'm not saying the 2nd Coming happened 2000 years ago! What happened 2000 years ago is Jesus died and the temple fell. The Jews went into Great Tribulation, which is the Jewish Diaspora, and will only fully end at Christ's Return.

Most people today seem to think the Great Tribulation is the reign of Antichrist. It isn't. That is only the end of the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the Jewish Punishment that Jesus said would come upon the Jewish People after 70 AD. And it was a judgment for having rejected their Messiah. The Jews will be restored as a spiritual nation, but only after Christ returns.

I am just saying that week 69, was Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Week 70 is the Second Coming.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I am just saying that week 69, was Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Week 70 is the Second Coming.

OK, thanks for clarifying. You seem to have misunderstood what I believed? Obviously, I view things differently, having a different underlying assumption than you do.

 

[Timtofly]

OK, thanks for clarifying. You seem to have misunderstood what I believed? Obviously, I view things differently, having a different underlying assumption than you do.

You did not mention the Second Coming nor when it happened. I do not understand how it figures into what you believe.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Re-Post by Bobby Jo:

OK, -- to be specific, please allow me to ONCE AGAIN provide SOME of the FAILURES of the Daniel 9 FALSE "JESUS AGENDA":

1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Solomon biyn (Ref. 1 Kings 3) to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

3. Per Young, the Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather an edict directly from GOD.

4. The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration.

5. The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration.

6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.

7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.

8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.

9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.

10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.
​

So anyone (commentators INCLUDED) who tells you the Prophecies of Daniel are ANCIENT, -- are LIARS. Perhaps some are willing to accept their BEST LIES, but I prefer to obey the angel's instructions as given in 12:4 & 9, to discover the TRUTH of GOD's Word in accordance with History.

Bobby Jo​

AND ... there's no expectation that @Enoch111 will ever be intellectually honest and answer each of the Scriptural and Historical contradictions to his purported "ex-spert" opinions, which are more like a urinary track infection "spurt".

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

As I said, the evidence I have for the future interpretation of Daniel's 70th Week is that Ribera taught it. But I have little on it--2nd hand info. If you discover more, I'd be grateful if you share it with me. Until then, the argument that "all through history" a future interpretation existed does not hold water.

This is significant because if the 70 Weeks was normally interpreted in a sequential way, as is reasonable, then it is not likely that a future 70th week is either true or an acceptable way of interpreting that prophecy.

The seventy are uninterrupted, -- a continuous chronology which has been fulfilled in the era approximate to 1948. But each of the five blind men have their own "perspectives", and that's why they're called blind men.

Bobby Jo

 

[Randy Kluth]

You did not mention the Second Coming nor when it happened. I do not understand how it figures into what you believe.

My interpretation of the 70 Weeks is historical. Jesus' 2nd Coming is future. They do not go together, except that Jesus compared them in the Olivet Discourse. There, Jesus was focusing primarily on the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which took place in 70 AD. And Jesus indicated that his 2nd Coming would be like this, requiring moral preparation in our present lives.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Re-Post by Bobby Jo:

OK, -- to be specific, please allow me to ONCE AGAIN provide SOME of the FAILURES of the Daniel 9 FALSE "JESUS AGENDA":

1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Solomon biyn (Ref. 1 Kings 3) to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

3. Per Young, the Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather an edict directly from GOD.

4. The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration.

5. The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration.

6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.

7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.

8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.

9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.

10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.
​

So anyone (commentators INCLUDED) who tells you the Prophecies of Daniel are ANCIENT, -- are LIARS. Perhaps some are willing to accept their BEST LIES, but I prefer to obey the angel's instructions as given in 12:4 & 9, to discover the TRUTH of GOD's Word in accordance with History.

Bobby Jo​

AND ... there's no expectation that @Enoch111 will ever be intellectually honest and answer each of the Scriptural and Historical contradictions to his purported "ex-spert" opinions, which are more like a urinary track infection "spurt".

Bobby Jo

Calling those with different opinions "liars" is a bit strong in my opinion. It's not conducive to Christian witness to the truth of Christian love.

I mean, if a lie is being told to cover up the saving truths about Christ, I could justify some righteous indignation. But this is more like personal rage.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The seventy are uninterrupted, -- a continuous chronology which has been fulfilled in the era approximate to 1948. But each of the five blind men have their own "perspectives", and that's why they're called blind men.

Bobby Jo

You're blind only if you lack the love of Christ. Find that, and then get back to me. I'll be happy to discuss anything.

 

[Stranger]

This is significant because if the 70 Weeks was normally interpreted in a sequential way, as is reasonable, then it is not likely that a future 70th week is either true or an acceptable way of interpreting that prophecy.

Understanding the 70th week as yet future, and, is that 7 year Tribulation period, is interpreting (Daniel) in a sequential way.

Stranger

 

[Timtofly]

My interpretation of the 70 Weeks is historical. Jesus' 2nd Coming is future. They do not go together, except that Jesus compared them in the Olivet Discourse. There, Jesus was focusing primarily on the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which took place in 70 AD. And Jesus indicated that his 2nd Coming would be like this, requiring moral preparation in our present lives.

Jesus covered AD 70, Daniel covered AD 70, and the church did not, because AD 70 was already covered. What is not covered is the 70th week of Daniel. AD70 was covered with the 69th week event. The Second Coming is the 70th week. All people everywhere can protest that fact night and day for the next 3 years. Then they will realize at the Second Coming, they just wasted 3 years.

 

[Timtofly]

Re-Post by Bobby Jo:

OK, -- to be specific, please allow me to ONCE AGAIN provide SOME of the FAILURES of the Daniel 9 FALSE "JESUS AGENDA":

1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Solomon biyn (Ref. 1 Kings 3) to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

3. Per Young, the Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather an edict directly from GOD.

4. The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration.

5. The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration.

6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.

7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.

8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.

9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.

10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.
​

So anyone (commentators INCLUDED) who tells you the Prophecies of Daniel are ANCIENT, -- are LIARS. Perhaps some are willing to accept their BEST LIES, but I prefer to obey the angel's instructions as given in 12:4 & 9, to discover the TRUTH of GOD's Word in accordance with History.

Bobby Jo​

AND ... there's no expectation that @Enoch111 will ever be intellectually honest and answer each of the Scriptural and Historical contradictions to his purported "ex-spert" opinions, which are more like a urinary track infection "spurt".

Bobby Jo

So 1948 + 70 = 2018. Are you the one in 2018 who received the newly revealed sealed up Scripture?

 

[Bobby Jo]

Calling those with different opinions "liars" is a bit strong in my opinion.

AGREED! :) But when they VIOLATE angelic instructions; VIOLATE what Scripture and History present; and KNOW they don't have the TRUTH and instead present their BEST LIE, -- then they're LIARS.

...the truth of Christian love ...

The TRUTH IS LOVE.

... But this is more like personal rage.

Challenge me. If there's any TRUTH to what they lie about, then I'll GLADLY apologize. And if I PROVE they're LIARS, then YOU apologize. Fair enough?


Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

You're blind only if you lack the love of Christ. Find that, and then get back to me. I'll be happy to discuss anything.

Great! We're there!

MANY versions present Daniel's "seven" and "sixty-two" as though it were one number (i.e., "sixty-nine"). Newton said it does "VIOLENCE" to Scripture, as there is no Scriptural or Societal precedent for summing numbers in that fashion. I.e., a pair of shoes does not cost "seven and sixty-two dollars (plus tax), -- they cost SIXTY-NINE dollars.

But the RSV correctly presents what Scripture demands:

Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing​

... and so we find TWO separate durations, with TWO separate "anointed ones". -- AGREED?


And please recall that these prophecies are not ancient. They're preserved (Dan. 12:4 & 9) for the era approximate to 1948.
Bobby Jo