Rapture Ready For Partial Rapture?

[marks]

REB Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation and worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you suddenly, like a trap. For that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.

. . . .

Therefore the REB gives the correct translation.

Hi Keraz,

The more I think about it, I think your thoughts on a CME occuring have a lot of merit, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that this is what will fulfill certain prophecies.

On this part above . . .
from Scripture4all.org


ekphugien, the lexical form, ekphugo, a conjoined word from Ek, "out of", and pheugo, A few examples:

Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

Act 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

2Co 11:33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Pheugo itself appears in:

Mat 8:33 And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city,

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

I don't thing "pass through" is the correct understanding here. I think it's more on the lines of, To Run Away.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We are also talking about "worthy." I gather you believe in the pre-trib rapture, but who are those who come out of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 7. Weren't they Christians already going into the GT?

Hi CL,

On this point, "These are they who have come "out of" the great tribulation.

The word translated "out of", "ek", well, there's something to consider. John, in several places, demonstrates that he used "ek", out of, interchangeably with "apo", away from.

One example of this is where Luke quotes Jesus, "If I be lifted up from the earth", idiomatic of crucifixion. The correct meaning is "lift up away from the the earth. "Apo" is used here.

But where John gives the same quote, he wrote with "ek", which, strictly speaking, would have Jesus saying, "If I be lifted up out of the earth", but that wasn't correct. We understand what he meant there, same as Luke, but again, using the words interchangeably.

In Revelation, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation, this then can be understood as either, came out of the great tribulation, or, came away from the great tribulation. In the one case, the more common understanding, they were already in the great tribulation, and they've come out of it. In the other case, they were near to the great tribulation, but have now come away from it. Either understanding is supported by John's writing style.

So then we need to see which harmonizes better with the balance of the Book. For me, I think this innumerable multitude is actually the raptured church, seen in heaven.

We see the martyrs entering heaven in ch. 15, on that same sea of glass, but then mixed with fire.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi CL,

On this point, "These are they who have come "out of" the great tribulation.

The word translated "out of", "ek", well, there's something to consider. John, in several places, demonstrates that he used "ek", out of, interchangeably with "apo", away from.

One example of this is where Luke quotes Jesus, "If I be lifted up from the earth", idiomatic of crucifixion. The correct meaning is "lift up away from the the earth. "Apo" is used here.

But where John gives the same quote, he wrote with "ek", which, strictly speaking, would have Jesus saying, "If I be lifted up out of the earth", but that wasn't correct. We understand what he meant there, same as Luke, but again, using the words interchangeably.

In Revelation, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation, this then can be understood as either, came out of the great tribulation, or, came away from the great tribulation. In the one case, the more common understanding, they were already in the great tribulation, and they've come out of it. In the other case, they were near to the great tribulation, but have now come away from it. Either understanding is supported by John's writing style.

So then we need to see which harmonizes better with the balance of the Book. For me, I think this innumerable multitude is actually the raptured church, seen in heaven.

We see the martyrs entering heaven in ch. 15, on that same sea of glass, but then mixed with fire.

Much love!

In Revelation 6 in the 5th seal (the first seal is the Antichrist) are the martyrs, and I believe those are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 7.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

[marks]

In Revelation 6 in the 5th seal (the first seal is the Antichrist) are the martyrs, and I believe those are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 7.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

And in Chapter 15, what are your thoughts on those?

And why are the tribulation martyrs in heaven before any of the plagues, much less the great tribulution?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

And in Chapter 15, what are your thoughts on those?

And why are the tribulation martyrs in heaven before any of the plagues, much less the great tribulution?

Much love!

When a Christian dies their spirit goes straight to heaven. Do you believe that?

 

[CharismaticLady]

And in Chapter 15, what are your thoughts on those?

And why are the tribulation martyrs in heaven before any of the plagues, much less the great tribulution?

Much love!

Chapter 14 is the second coming after the GT, and 15 then is the wrath of God poured out. The Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God as taught by pre-tribber pastors. As all tribulation it purifies those who I like to say are lukewarm and on the fence. Notice in chapter 7 that they wash their robes in the blood of the lamb. The point it they all have robes already. The heathen are naked. It appears the lukewarm Christians like those of Thyatira have soiled their robes and they need cleansing. Only the Philadelphians will be protected and kept from the tribulation. They don't need cleansing. They already are keepers of the Word of God. But that doesn't mean the Philadelphians will be caught up in some secret rapture. The real rapture is at the actual second coming, and Jesus returns with the souls of the dead in Him. He doesn't return with the living.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@marks I added to my last post.

 

[marks]

Chapter 14 is the second coming after the GT, and 15 then is the wrath of God poured out. The Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God as taught by pre-tribber pastors. As all tribulation it purifies those who I like to say are lukewarm and on the fence. Notice in chapter 7 that they wash their robes in the blood of the lamb. The point it they all have robes already. The heathen are naked. It appears the lukewarm Christians like those of Thyatira have soiled their robes and they need cleansing. Only the Philadelphians will be protected and kept from the tribulation. They don't need cleansing. They already are keepers of the Word of God. But that doesn't mean the Philadelphians will be caught up in some secret rapture. The real rapture is at the actual second coming, and Jesus returns with the souls of the dead in Him. He doesn't return with the living.

Would you call your rapture view "pre-wrath"?

 

[marks]

Only the Philadelphians will be protected and kept from the tribulation.

Actually, if we are reading this prophetically, these will be "kept out of the hour of testing". Not, kept out of the place of testing. Not, kept out of the testing itself. Rather, kept out of the time of the testing, it's hour.

Rather significant, I think!

Much love!

 

[marks]

When a Christian dies their spirit goes straight to heaven. Do you believe that?

No, I don't.

Ephesians 2
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

We are already alive in the heavenly realm. But we experience through our terrestrial senses in this realm.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Would you call your rapture view "pre-wrath"?

No, post-trib. The wrath comes after the second coming. The rapture comes at the second coming.

 

[Enoch111]

CL: When a Christian dies their spirit goes straight to heaven. Do you believe that?
M: No, I don't.

That is rather strange, since the Bible makes it crystal clear that the souls and spirits of the saints go straight to heaven upon death.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Actually, if we are reading this prophetically, these will be "kept out of the hour of testing". Not, kept out of the place of testing. Not, kept out of the testing itself. Rather, kept out of the time of the testing, it's hour.

Rather significant, I think!

Much love!

Were the Israelites taken out of Egypt before the plagues? Or were they supernaturally protected? It is a paradigm of the Great Tribulation.

 

[marks]

No, post-trib. The wrath comes after the second coming. The rapture comes at the second coming.

So then yes, post-trib/pre-wrath.

I find the rapture views I generally hear are:

Pre trib - before the 70th week
Pre wrath - after the truncated great tribulation, before the wrath
Post trib - after everything
No rapture - Jesus gathers everyone on earth after it's all over

I've spent about a decade on a pre-wrath forum discussing these things, not to mention my own research. I think I'm conversant on the different views, fwiw.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

No, I don't.

Ephesians 2
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

We are already alive in the heavenly realm. But we experience through our terrestrial senses in this realm.

Much love!

I always think of this by Paul regarding physical death.

Philippians 1:
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

 

[marks]

Were the Israelites taken out of Egypt before the plagues? Or were they supernaturally protected? It is a paradigm of the Great Tribulation.

As relates to Isreal, not the gentile church.

The plagues were used to deliver Israel. And the deliverance through the Red Sea was what cemented their faith.

On the wings of an eagle . . . I see the Israelites who flee at the abomination that causes desolation will do so under cover of the plagues called down by the 2 witnesses.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I always think of this by Paul regarding physical death.

Philippians 1:
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Yes. Of coursre we are with Him now, He is with us, so this is phenomenal language, that is, he describes what his experience of dying will be. I think that to close our eyes here is to open them there.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

As relates to Isreal, not the gentile church.

The plagues were used to deliver Israel. And the deliverance through the Red Sea was what cemented their faith.

On the wings of an eagle . . . I see the Israelites who flee at the abomination that causes desolation will do so under cover of the plagues called down by the 2 witnesses.

Much love!

You are trying to separate the Church in two. One Gentile, and one Jewish. There is only one church and it started with the Jews. Gentiles were grafted in UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, and THEN all the national Jews will come into the Church and be saved.

 

[Keraz]

PEOPLE being Raptured TO HEAVEN...was YOUR claim!

Why would people who Believe in the Rapture be expected to Defend your claim? A claim they didn't make?

Glory to God,
Taken

The believers in a 'rapture' that I know are quite clear: they believe the Lord will take them to heaven, where they will consciously live until they Return to earth with Jesus for the Millennium reign.
I want to hear your belief, if it isn't the above.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes. Of coursre we are with Him now, He is with us, so this is phenomenal language, that is, he describes what his experience of dying will be. I think that to close our eyes here is to open them there.

Much love!

Yes, but do you believe we will be unconscious in the grave, or immediately in heaven while the rest of us who remain will be on earth?