Pentecostalism

[rockytopva]

So I could be your grandmother!! My younger daughter is 56!!! LOL

I remember sitting on my grandpa's lap. ( back in England)
He lost half his arm in the Boar War, a bullet went UP the barrel of his rifle.
( do you remember reading of that war?)

All my uncles were in World War 1

My dad was in World War 11.

I was only 3 but remember some things from the war days in England.
There was a bomb site near our house.

My dad and us too, were Pentecostal Holiness ...in the 60's.
Saw many healings...real ones ones that didn't vanish.

ByGrace, love your postings, keep up the good work. I feel for the folks here who never did get religion in the old time Pentecostal Holiness way. In which, in the words of George Clark Rankin (The Life of George Clark Rankin), who received this kind of religion similarly in Methodist ways, "During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life." - George Clark Rankin

 

[Berserk]

Yoga is an Eastern spiritual practice. Just because it is now used as exercise primary does not change its foundational facts.

First, I know of no Pentecostals who practice Yoga.

Second, to use your logic, Jesus and Paul were both occultists immersied in cultic practices.
Paul laid hands on handkerchiefs owned by the sick who couldn't travel to hear him. When these handkerchiefs were treturned, the sick were healed! That is a practice borrowed from contagious magic: the blessing applied to an object is transferred to the owner.
In Jesus' healing art employs gimmicks borrowed from Near Eastern magic: e.g. anointing with oil, anointing with spittle and clay, laying on hands--all standard gimmicks used by contemporary magicians! When Jesus feels energy surging through his body into the woman with the menstrual bleeding problem, that by your logical should be interpreted as the rise of kundalinit energy from his spine. Indeed, the sacrament of Holy Communion has no close parallel in Jewish practice, but is adapted from pagan mystery cult meals in which the food and drink symbolizes mystical participation in the dying and rising god. For these reasons, the Jews dsmiss Jesus as a magician and use that as grounds for His crucifixion.

In other words, your absurd application of paralllelomania to Pentecostalism would also repudiate Jesus and Paul. But then that it is to be expected because you are a text book case of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[illini1959]

First, I know of no Pentecostals who practice Yoga.

Second, to use your logic, Jesus and Paul were both occultists immersied in cultic practices.
Paul laid hands on handkerchiefs owned by the sick who couldn't travel to hear him. When these handkerchiefs were treturned, the sick were healed! That is a practice borrowed from contagious magic: the blessing applied to an object is transferred to the owner.
In Jesus' healing art employs gimmicks borrowed from Near Eastern magic: e.g. anointing with oil, anointing with spittle and clay, laying on hands--all standard gimmicks used by contemporary magicians! When Jesus feels energy surging through his body into the woman with the menstrual bleeding problem, that by your logical should be interpreted as the rise of kundalinit energy from his spine. Indeed, the sacrament of Holy Communion has no close parallel in Jewish practice, but is adapted from pagan mystery cult meals in which the food and drink symbolizes mystical participation in the dying and rising god. For these reasons, the Jews dsmiss Jesus as a magician and use that as grounds for His crucifixion.

In other words, your absurd application of paralllelomania to Pentecostalism would also repudiate Jesus and Paul. But then that it is to be expected because you are a text book case of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Paul didn't 'lay hands on' anything. Acts 19:11-12 says "God was performing miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out."

Jesus' healing employs 'gimmicks...'? Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Berserk]

Paul didn't 'lay hands on' anything. Acts 19:11-12 says "God was performing miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out."

Jesus' healing employs 'gimmicks...'? Am I understanding you correctly?

Jesus uses "gimmicks" like the application of spittle, clay, and oil, gimmicks used in contemporary Greco-Roman magic or occult arts. I prefer to call these Values to release faith and bypass futile efforts to try and believe. When Paul lays hands on aprons or handherchiefs that are returned to the sick person, he is employing a method used in contagious magic, which is based on the principle that a blessing applied to a possession then spreads like a "contangion" to its owner. Of course, Christians believe that God uses such "techniques" (as well as the laying on of hands) to impart healing energy and trigger a faith response. I myself have aslked a prayer group to lay hands on me as a proxy for a distant person in need of a healing touch, which resulted in a miracle. My point is this: don't reject a paranormal experience simply because someone effectively uses it that you don't consider a Christian.

 

[CoreIssue]

Jesus uses "gimmicks" like the application of spittle, clay, and oil, gimmicks used in contemporary Greco-Roman magic or occult arts. I prefer to call these Values to release faith and bypass futile efforts to try and believe. When Paul lays hands on aprons or handherchiefs that are returned to the sick person, he is employing a method used in contagious magic, which is based on the principle that a blessing applied to a possession then spreads like a "contangion" to its owner. Of course, Christians believe that God uses such "techniques" (as well as the laying on of hands) to impart healing energy and trigger a faith response. I myself have aslked a prayer group to lay hands on me as a proxy for a distant person in need of a healing touch, which resulted in a miracle. My point is this: don't reject a paranormal experience simply because someone effectively uses it that you don't consider a Christian.

The problem is Pentecostalism adds to the claims and does not function in any way they can show in the Bible.

Such as slain in the spirit and babbling like an idiot and calling it tongues, which Paul forbid.

 

[illini1959]

Jesus uses "gimmicks" like the application of spittle, clay, and oil, gimmicks used in contemporary Greco-Roman magic or occult arts. I prefer to call these Values to release faith and bypass futile efforts to try and believe. When Paul lays hands on aprons or handherchiefs that are returned to the sick person, he is employing a method used in contagious magic, which is based on the principle that a blessing applied to a possession then spreads like a "contangion" to its owner. Of course, Christians believe that God uses such "techniques" (as well as the laying on of hands) to impart healing energy and trigger a faith response. I myself have aslked a prayer group to lay hands on me as a proxy for a distant person in need of a healing touch, which resulted in a miracle. My point is this: don't reject a paranormal experience simply because someone effectively uses it that you don't consider a Christian.

I've never heard anyone refer to Jesus' methods of healing as 'gimmicks', hmm.

As I mentioned before, pointing out Paul didn't 'lay hands' on anything, per the verse in Acts.

I do believe God heals, I believe many times He uses extraordinary measures; I believe in scriptural laying on of hands.

The proxy thing....no proxy was needed when Jesus healed the centurion's servant. The power of His name knows no distance.

Thanks for explaining your comment.

 

[CoreIssue]

I've never heard anyone refer to Jesus' methods of healing as 'gimmicks', hmm.

As I mentioned before, pointing out Paul didn't 'lay hands' on anything, per the verse in Acts.

I do believe God heals, I believe many times He uses extraordinary measures; I believe in scriptural laying on of hands.

The proxy thing....no proxy was needed when Jesus healed the centurion's servant. The power of His name knows no distance.

Thanks for explaining your comment.

Many do not realize the laying on of hands, anointing with oil, and other practices were ancient customs not ordained by God.

Nor were those practices usually for anything relating to God.

Exactly on the centurian.

A friend I helped to escape the The Catholic Church fell down and broke his arm and the bone pierced the skin. He cried out to God and was instantly healed.

I was once instantly healed with no laying on of hands. All by myself.

God does it the way he wants to do it.

At Armageddon it appears Jesus just commands the enemy to die and they do.

 

[Stranger]

Many do not realize the laying on of hands, anointing with oil, and other practices were ancient customs not ordained by God.

Nor were those practices usually for anything relating to God.

Exactly on the centurian.

A friend I helped to escape the The Catholic Church fell down and broke his arm and the bone pierced the skin. He cried out to God and was instantly healed.

I was once instantly healed with no laying on of hands. All by myself.

God does it the way he wants to do it.

At Armageddon it appears Jesus just commands the enemy to die and they do.

The Lord's Supper is an ancient custom. Faith in God and Jesus Christ is an ancient custom. We get these from the ancient Book, The Bible.

Why should I believe you of this miraculous healing of you and your friend all by yourself's?

Stranger

 

[CoreIssue]

The Lord's Supper is an ancient custom. Faith in God and Jesus Christ is an ancient custom. We get these from the ancient Book, The Bible.

Why should I believe you of this miraculous healing of you and your friend all by yourself's?

Stranger

I really don't care if you believe me or not.

And I'm talking about ancient customs many centuries old than the Lord's table.

Nor did all of those practices originate in Israel.

 

[Stranger]

I really don't care if you believe me or not.

And I'm talking about ancient customs many centuries old than the Lord's table.

Nor did all of those practices originate in Israel.

Good, because I don't believe you.

Laying on of hands was done by the apostle's and early church. It is Biblical. Do you disbelieve God?

Who cares? There were believers around long before Israel.

Stranger

 

[CoreIssue]

Good, because I don't believe you.

Laying on of hands was done by the apostle's and early church. It is Biblical. Do you disbelieve God?

Who cares? There were believers around long before Israel.

Stranger

Yes there were. But not with the revelation given to Israel and the church.

 

[Berserk]

illini: "I've never heard anyone refer to Jesus' methods of healing as 'gimmicks', hmm."

You need to read the various Gospel texts where Jesus employs the gimmicks (spittle, clay, oil) mentioned and then ask yourself, "Why does Jesus use these gimmicks in these cases instead of just praying for the physical ailments or just laying on hands?"
That's why Catholic priests use blessed holy water to build up faith.

As I mentioned before, pointing out Paul didn't 'lay hands' on anything, per the verse in Acts.
Illini: "The proxy thing....no proxy was needed when Jesus healed the centurion's servant. The power of His name knows no distance."
So why does Paul use "The proxy thing" instead of just praying for the absent sick people?

 

[Stranger]

Yes there were. But not with the revelation given to Israel and the church.

Laying on of hands is Biblical. Why do you reject it?

Stranger

 

[CoreIssue]

Laying on of hands is Biblical. Why do you reject it?

Stranger

I never said I rejected it.

I was just showing it was not a God demand method.

Like praying. Hands up, down or folded. It is still prayer.

 

[illini1959]

illini: "I've never heard anyone refer to Jesus' methods of healing as 'gimmicks', hmm."

You need to read the various Gospel texts where Jesus employs the gimmicks (spittle, clay, oil) mentioned and then ask yourself, "Why does Jesus use these gimmicks in these cases instead of just praying for the physical ailments or just laying on hands?"
That's why Catholic priests use blessed holy water to build up faith.

As I mentioned before, pointing out Paul didn't 'lay hands' on anything, per the verse in Acts.
Illini: "The proxy thing....no proxy was needed when Jesus healed the centurion's servant. The power of His name knows no distance."
So why does Paul use "The proxy thing" instead of just praying for the absent sick people?

I've read the Gospel texts, thanks :)

One has to take into consideration who Jesus was ministering to - the culture of the time. Jewish Rabbis of the day considered saliva a treatment for blindness. Jesus did what He did to show people He was who He said He was.

Of course there were times Jesus healed immediately, by His word alone, e.g. Matt. 15:28 "Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly."

"Holy water" doesn't build up faith....

Paul didn't use the proxy thing. Again, the verses say "God was performing miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick..."

Paul didn't 'lay hands' on anything...God's power was so great here that these things 'were even carried' from his body to the sick. No proxy on Paul's part.

 

[farouk]

I've read the Gospel texts, thanks :)

One has to take into consideration who Jesus was ministering to - the culture of the time. Jewish Rabbis of the day considered saliva a treatment for blindness. Jesus did what He did to show people He was who He said He was.

Of course there were times Jesus healed immediately, by His word alone, e.g. Matt. 15:28 "Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly."

"Holy water" doesn't build up faith....

Paul didn't use the proxy thing. Again, the verses say "God was performing miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick..."

Paul didn't 'lay hands' on anything...God's power was so great here that these things 'were even carried' from his body to the sick. No proxy on Paul's part.

Interesting to see that that sign gifts in Acts occurred when the canon of Scripture was not yet complete. Now we have sufficient authority to confirm the faith, from the complete Scriptures.

 

[Berserk]

I've read the Gospel texts, thanks :)

Illini: "Jewish Rabbis of the day considered saliva a treatment for blindness."

You are pontificating from ignorance and can quote no ancient rabbi who makes that clai

Illini: "Holy water" doesn't build up faith...."

You are not Catholic and are again pontificating from ignorance.

(1) Blessed holy water applies Jesus' principle of using props like spittle, clay, and oil to aid the faith of the sick person.
(2) Holy water has proven itself as an effective tool in outing the demon during effective Catholic exorcisms.

Illini: "Paul didn't 'lay hands' on anything...God's power was so great here that these things 'were even carried' from his body to the sick. No proxy on Paul's part."

You can cite no academic commentary on Acts that agrees with you! Acts 19:12 says, "God did extraordinary things through the hands of Paul. so that the handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched his skin were brought to the sick, their diseases lef them."
Obviously the role of Paul's hands are mentioned because the contact with the handkerchiefs and aprons was with the skin of Paul's hands. Thus, Ernst Haenchen rightly observes in his magisterial Commentary on Acts, p. 561:
"The power is created by direct contact (laying on of hands)."
This fits the general practice of the apostles of healing through the laying on of hands: e .g.
"Through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders happened among the people (Acts 5:12)."
of course, the transfer of healing efficacy from Paul's hands to the handkerchiefs and aprons to the absent sick people is adaptged from the principle of contagious magic.

 

[Stranger]

I never said I rejected it.

I was just showing it was not a God demand method.

Like praying. Hands up, down or folded. It is still prayer.

Post #(47). You stated they did not originate with God. You trivialize the act. Now you say you don't reject it.

If it is of God then why do you come against it? If churches practice it, why speak ill of it?

No, your crawfishing now.

Stranger

 

[CoreIssue]

Post #(47). You stated they did not originate with God. You trivialize the act. Now you say you don't reject it.

If it is of God then why do you come against it? If churches practice it, why speak ill of it?

No, your crawfishing now.

Stranger

Laying on of hands predated Israel

 

[Stranger]

Laying on of hands predated Israel

So what? Sacrifices pre-dated Israel. Prayer pre-dated Israel.

Stranger