Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[OzSpen]

The tree must first exist before the fruit. You must have the Holy Spirit before his fruit can exist.

The tree is planted at salvation.

 

[Dave L]

The tree is planted at salvation.

The tree = salvation. It must exist before the fruit can grow.

 

[OzSpen]

This is the problem, you cannot support universal atonement with scripture. The atonement pays for sin. If it is universal, and most perish, it didn't pay for any sin.

You continue to give no Scripture. As long as you do this, I'll not engage further as this is coming out of your mind without Scriptural base.

Oz

 

[Taken]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

We nurture it with the Word and exercise it with good works of love. It's that simple.

For being, so simple, you have overlooked some pertinent facts.

Who is "WE"?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

For being, so simple, you have overlooked some pertinent facts.

Who is "WE"?

God Bless,
Taken

We = the saved.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Faith is a gift from God, not a gift from you to God.

And why do you think He doesn't offer this gift out to everyone?

 

[BreadOfLife]

The epitome of what the Bible teaches is that we are saved by grace through faith.

And that ALL depends on what YOU think “Faith” is.

Faith is NOT simply “believing” – and Scripture is explicitly clear about that.

Faith = Belief + Obedience (Works).

James is adamant about this by telling his readers that just “believing” doesn’t make you any better off than the DEMONS (James 2:19). He goes on to describe what TRUE faith is – and it includes action (James 2:14-26).

Paul, also writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit concurs:

Gal. 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

 

[Dave L]

And why do you think He doesn't offer this gift out to everyone?

He doesn't or all would believe. Here's one of many examples showing God has mercy on whom he will. If you believe, you are one them.

“Although Jesus had performed so many miraculous signs before them, they still refused to believe in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled. He said, “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”For this reason they could not believe, because again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and turn to me, and I would heal them.”” (John 12:37–40)

 

[Jane_Doe22]

And that ALL depends on what YOU think “Faith” is.

Faith is NOT simply “believing” – and Scripture is explicitly clear about that.

Faith = Belief + Obedience (Works).

James is adamant about this by telling his readers that just “believing” doesn’t make you any better off than the DEMONS (James 2:19). He goes on to describe what TRUE faith is – and it includes action (James 2:14-26).

Paul, also writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit concurs:

Gal. 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Another way of stating this: faith is no simply saying "oh yeah, I love God" and then continuing kiss Satan's feet. Rather, faith is about giving your entire self-- you heart, your mind, your might, your soul, to Him. It is all done continually through God's power.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Here's one of many examples showing God has mercy on whom he will. If you believe, you are one them.

“Although Jesus had performed so many miraculous signs before them, they still refused to believe in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled. He said, “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”For this reason they could not believe, because again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and turn to me, and I would heal them.”” (John 12:37–40)

We literally have been over this exact verse this vary thread. It literally says "they still refused to believe in him" - the people are choosing to not listen to the Holy Spirit and choosing to reject the gift of faith. It's not that God didn't offer them the gift, but that they choose to reject it.

To believe that God doesn't offer His gifts to everyone is to believe in a being which created a bunch of people just to hate them and doom them to hell. It's not remotely consistent with the Bible, but rather the result of man not wanting to acknowledge that they need to accept God's gifts.

 

[Dave L]

We literally have been over this exact verse this vary thread. It literally says "they still refused to believe in him" - the people are choosing to not listen to the Holy Spirit and choosing to reject the gift of faith. It's not that God didn't offer them the gift, but that they choose to reject it.

To believe that God doesn't offer His gifts to everyone is to believe in a being which created a bunch of people just to hate them and doom them to hell. It's not remotely consistent with the Bible, but rather the result of man not wanting to acknowledge that they need to accept God's gifts.

They refused because God hardened their hearts.

 

[bbyrd009]

imagine how you feel :)

We = the saved.

"when we aaaaalllll get to heaven..."
lol
i mean are those the twice the sons of hell or the seven worse spirits Dave, the We's that are all going somewhere or becoming immortal someday

 

[Dave L]

imagine how you feel :)

"when we aaaaalllll get to heaven..."
lol
i mean are those the twice the sons of hell or the seven worse spirits Dave, the We's that are all going somewhere or becoming immortal someday

“The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.” (John 3:36)

 

[bbyrd009]

“The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.” (John 3:36)

notice how you are rejecting these posts by not replying to them, and instead asserting what you are comfortable with, Dave?
where have i said to not follow Christ anywhere?

Ps your bad tranny should say "the one who has faith in the Son..." as the Lex will prove, but you don't have to ever break up Nehushtan if you don't want to Dave, and you can believe you will all get to heaven when you die as long as you like, as far as i am concerned anyway

 

[Helen]

False again.

1 John 2:2 states, 'He Himself [Jesus the Righteous One] is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world' (HCSB).

Jesus appeases the wrath of God (propitiates) the sins 'of the whole world'.

Please tell me how this verse refutes your position.

Oz

AMEN!!!
And right there we stick.

....

 

[BreadOfLife]

“The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.” (John 3:36)

This is a great verse – and it applies to those who REMAIN faithful.
However – it does NOT apply to those who fall away – and the Bible is filled with examples of this.

Jesus said that simply calling on His name and believing is NOT enough:

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who DOES the will of my Father in heaven.

 

[Taken]

We = the saved.

Then yes, The saved and born again Converted are prepared with the Holy Spirt to produce Fruit that Glorified God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

This is a great verse – and it applies to those who REMAIN faithful.
However – it does NOT apply to those who fall away – and the Bible is filled with examples of this.

Jesus said that simply calling on His name and believing is NOT enough:

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who DOES the will of my Father in heaven.

If you have eternal life, you wont fall away.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If you have eternal life, you wont fall away.

That is absolutely false.
However you slice it – OSAS, Eternal Security, Eternal Assurance – this is false, man-made invention of the 16th century and is NOTsupported in Scripture.

The Bible assures us that if we STOP believing and STOP being obedient - we LOSE it all (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

Epignosis is the word used in these passages. It implies a full and experiential knowledge of Christ - not just a simple knowledge (gnosis, oida) of the intellect.
Epignosis illustrates a person who has a deep relationship with someone.

Some Protestant encyclopedias even go so far as to define it as "True Faith".

 

[quietthinker]

It is a lie to tell people Jesus died for their sins if he did not. It is better to tell them Jesus died for the sins of whoever believes in him. If you believe, you have eternal life. Otherwise, you are baiting the self-righteous into thinking they are saved because of something they do.

The good news is qualified by 'while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly' What people do with that news is their responsibility. No doubt it will be exploited and turned every which way to flatter mens pride and religious superiority. That is outside of my control. Second guessing another's motives is a messy process and hardly accurate.
We are called to humble ourselves; here we have a work to do.