Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[Taken]

Yes, and faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit we must have before faith can exist.

That doesn't even make sense.

Faith is a Gift from God.
All men begin WITHOUT Faith.
Men who CHOOSE to hear and read;
....BEGIN
Receiving "measures" of faith.
....As they receive "measures" of faith,
....they begin believing

"IF" they continue hearing/reading/receiving Increases of Faith......THEY ARE BEING PREPARED to call on the Lord and Confess Belief IN HIM......at which time "IF" they DO Confess to the Lord, they SHALL BECOME Converted; they shall be made IN "FULL" and "FOREVER" FAITH-FULLNESS In thee Lord God.

The Caveat....IS "IF".

 

[Dave L]

That doesn't even make sense.

Faith is a Gift from God.
All men begin WITHOUT Faith.
Men who CHOOSE to hear and read;
....BEGIN
Receiving "measures" of faith.
....As they receive "measures" of faith,
....they begin believing

"IF" they continue hearing/reading/receiving Increases of Faith......THEY ARE BEING PREPARED to call on the Lord and Confess Belief IN HIM......at which time "IF" they DO Confess to the Lord, they SHALL BECOME Converted; they shall be made IN "FULL" and "FOREVER" FAITH-FULLNESS In thee Lord God.

The Caveat....IS "IF".

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. We nurture it with the Word and exercise it with good works of love. It's that simple.

 

[Dave L]

The message, the good news to go out to the world is that Jesus has died for your sins. Yes, its the message the world considers foolish because it doesn't have the sound of sophistication, it requires no theological approval from anybody.
The Sprit accompanies this message. It takes what men consider foolish and saves those who believe it. Does this mean there is no more to learn? of course not, but it does put mans pride in its place by taking man's sophistication, his high minded theological angles and his clever arguments and exposes them for what they are.....foolishness

It is a lie to tell people Jesus died for their sins if he did not. It is better to tell them Jesus died for the sins of whoever believes in him. If you believe, you have eternal life. Otherwise, you are baiting the self-righteous into thinking they are saved because of something they do.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus offered His Body/flesh for the LIFE of the World.

No need to conjour up a confusion of some, for all, not for all.

Salvation is an OFFERING FOR ALL.

An OFFERING...

ALL men who choose to ACCEPT the Lords "OFFERING" have to REACH OUT, Accept it, Take it.....Before they "Possess it".

World = world to come where all are saved. Or world = Jews and Gentiles alike. Or world = the world itself that Christ saves in the New Heavens and earth. But it doesn't = every single person including those in the flood, the Canaanites, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the untold trillions who never heard the gospel.

 

[Dave L]

Not one biblical reference to support your opinions. How come? Don't you believe the Bible supports your views?

If Jesus died for all, why aren't all saved?

 

[Dave L]

The Greek word for 'faith' in Gal 5:22 means 'faithfulness' as a fruit of the Spirit. The fruit are what grows after salvation. Faith is what happens at salvation (Mk 11:22; Acts 16:31).

The tree must first exist before the fruit. You must have the Holy Spirit before his fruit can exist.

 

[Dave L]

What faith did the Philippian jailer and his household have in Acts 16:31?

He believed or he wouldn't have asked.........

 

[Dave L]

Please provide biblical evidence for these statements. This is coming out of your mind but not with demonstrated biblical evidence.

This is the problem, you cannot support universal atonement with scripture. The atonement pays for sin. If it is universal, and most perish, it didn't pay for any sin.

 

[Dave L]

I didn't say that.

Why then aren't all saved?

 

[bbyrd009]

Faith is what happens at salvation

when you see the light, you can get on the plane even though you still do not understand aerodynamics
belief is all it takes to go to a building deemed church on Soldays

 

[Dave L]

False again.

1 John 2:2 states, 'He Himself [Jesus the Righteous One] is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world' (HCSB).

Jesus appeases the wrath of God (propitiates) the sins 'of the whole world'.

Please tell me how this verse refutes your position.

Oz

Whole world = gentiles and Jews. Did Jesus die for the flood victims? Or the Canaanites? Sodom and Gomorrah? The untold trillions who never heard the gospel?

 

[bbyrd009]

This is the problem, you cannot support universal atonement with scripture. The atonement pays for sin. If it is universal, and most perish, it didn't pay for any sin.

TA-DAA nice Dave. Jesus did not die for your sins--in the manner we have been taught anyway--and that is the truth.
it's a hard truth, but knowledge brings sorrow i guess

 

[Dave L]

TA-DAA nice Dave. Jesus did not die for your sins--in the manner we have been taught anyway--and that is the truth.
it's a hard truth, but knowledge brings sorrow i guess

You believe because Jesus paid for your sins. Had he not, you could not believe.

 

[bbyrd009]

You believe because Jesus paid for your sins. Had he not, you could not believe.

i began with that belief, yes, but i have since learned better. God does not require blood; the law does

1As long as an heir is a child, he is no better off than a slave, even though he owns everything.
2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the date set by his father

 

[Dave L]

i began with that belief, yes, but i have since learned better. God does not require blood; the law does

Why did Jesus shed his blood for our sins if God did not require it?

 

[bbyrd009]

Why did Jesus shed his blood for our sins if God did not require it?

bc we required it, the law required it, just like Scripture says, and God comes to us. i guess i could even demonstrate with Scripture, but the vv i would Quote have been...um, heavily Rorschached, so i would have to ask you to suspend your premises long enough to read The Son of Man must be raised up like a snake on a pole in order to draw all men unto Himself differently. But i mean it's right there in Acts or wherever even; the Chief Priest is the one who condemned Jesus, seeking a scapegoat, right

No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins shall die. This v has not been nullified, and the awful truth is there in every verse imo, if we do not pick up our crosses and follow we could spend the rest of our lives on our knees worshipping Jesus and still be doomed

 

[Dave L]

bc we required it, the law required it, just like Scripture says, and God comes to us. i guess i could even demonstrate with Scripture, but the vv i would Quote have been...um, heavily Rorschached, so i would have to ask you to suspend your premises long enough to read The Son of Man must be raised up like a snake on a pole in order to draw all men unto Himself differently. But i mean it's right there in Acts or wherever even; the Chief Priest is the one who condemned Jesus, seeking a scapegoat, right

No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins shall die. This v has not been nullified, and the awful truth is there in every verse imo, if we do not pick up our crosses and follow we could spend the rest of our lives on our knees worshipping Jesus and still be doomed

“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:29)

 

[bbyrd009]

“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:29)

if we deliberately keep on sinning after we have learned the truth, that would def apply Dave, but we are not, either of us, advocating lawlessness here i don't think. Imo one must still follow Christ, and that will include breaking up Nehushtan at some point, that's all this really is

 

[OzSpen]

If Jesus died for all, why aren't all saved?

Please show me where Scripture says, 'Since Jesus died for all, then all will be saved'.

Please tell me the meaning of Titus 2:11 (NIV): 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people'.

 

[Dave L]

Please show me where Scripture says, 'Since Jesus died for all, then all will be saved'.

Please tell me the meaning of Titus 2:11 (NIV): 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people'.

If Jesus died for our sins, and all are not saved, what gives?

All people = not only Jews, which was the case in the Old Covenant times, but gentiles too.