An Unknown Tongue

[amadeus]

Thanks for your concern, but God's Word is the Measure of all things, and the Acts 2 example of the cloven tongue ain't no gibberish unknown tongue.

My point was if a person came up to you and spoke to you in a language you had never learned or even heard before it might sound like gibberish to you, but if he spoke in the same words to someone from his homeland it would make perfect sense to that person. We should not be quick to put God into a box. He really will not fit...

I won't waste further words with you with regard to tongues as you have already made up your mind about what is from God and what is not.

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

 

[Davy]

My point was if a person came up to you and spoke to you in a language you had never learned or even heard before it might sound like gibberish to you, but if he spoke in the same words to someone from his homeland it would make perfect sense to that person. We should not be quick to put God into a box. He really will not fit...

I won't waste further words with you with regard to tongues as you have already made up your mind about what is from God and what is not.

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

And my point was that Acts 2 reveals how the real cloven tongue of Pentecost manifested. Everyone present, and I mean everyone, heard in their own dialect of their language of birth. That means even in the accents of where they were born. God knows how we hear and speak. So if someone goes to preach The Gospel to another group of people not knowing their language, and that group hears in their own dialects of their languages, then that is the sign of the true cloven tongue. God is not the author of confusion as written. And likewise, I won't waste my time with you either, since you've made up your mind to believe what you want instead of staying with God's Word on the matter.

 

[amadeus]

And my point was that Acts 2 reveals how the real cloven tongue of Pentecost manifested. Everyone present, and I mean everyone, heard in their own dialect of their language of birth. That means even in the accents of where they were born. God knows how we hear and speak. So if someone goes to preach The Gospel to another group of people not knowing their language, and that group hears in their own dialects of their languages, then that is the sign of the true cloven tongue. God is not the author of confusion as written. And likewise, I won't waste my time with you either, since you've made up your mind to believe what you want instead of staying with God's Word on the matter.

But I have not made up my mind absolutely on everything. Over the years I have been serving God my mind and heart have been changed on many things. I live by faith rather than by knowledge although I believe I do have some knowledge. The trouble is we don't always know the difference between what we believe and what we know. This is why I keep going back to the "lowest room".

I have never yet on this forum pushed the button on anyone to shut them out of my display. God will use people, even people with whom we to strongly disagree to send His message to us. Who am I to put my mind in opposition to that?

 

[amadeus]

Cornelius spoke at least two languages obviously, Aramaic/Hebrew and his own common latin. What tongues was this spoken and for whose benefit and did anyone interpret? Was it necessary to interpret?

It is necessary to interpret when a person is unable to understand the natural language of the message or the hidden underlying message of God within words spoken in his own language... if the message is intended for that person. Did Jesus speak to the people in a naturally foreign language? Why did even his closest followers ask him to interpret his words for them?

"Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?" Matt 15:15-16

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given" Matt 13:11

Jesus knew who was supposed to understand the mysteries and who was not.

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus knew who was supposed to understand the mysteries and who was not.

i like the passage chiefly for the cognitive dissonance it portrays, as the Apostles so obviously did not understand, then or later. Only finally. And we have to assume that Christ knew they did not understand, also. So then a conundrum is introduced, that must be contemplated

 

[bbyrd009]

Did Jesus speak to the people in a naturally foreign language? Why did even his closest followers ask him to interpret his words for them?

gee Wally, i guess bc one can speak the same language, and still be speaking in tongues, huh? :)

 

[amadeus]

gee Wally, i guess bc one can speak the same language, and still be speaking in tongues, huh? :)

Exactly! I believe you and I had this discussion before. In addition to the common languages of the people for each ethnic group and/or some political entities, there are other groups which have there own little language... such medical jargon, or the Social Security jargon I spoke when I was still working for a living, etc.

 

[bbyrd009]

"
The "theology" of Israel differed from that of the surrounding nations in that the Jews worshipped a deity called Information, and recognized information technology as a holy endeavor and free conversation as a form of worship. In stead of demanding a forced polarization upon some narrow religious creed, they maintained that broad human convention allows ultimate psycho-diversity and is a city for everyone to live in and to live in peace, security and ultimately in the presence of the Creator (Psalm 87:3, HEBREWS 12:22, REVELATION 21:2)..."

(Logos = Information, not much of a stretch at all; ah, here it is-)
"
Our verb λαλεω (laleo) is contrasted by the verb επω (epo), which means to say or tell, with a stronger emphasis on the actual message or topic, and the verb λεγω (lego), meaning to speak or convey, with the emphasis on the transfer of information (information is known by the noun λογος, that is Logos or Word), irrespective of the way in which this happens, albeit mostly by verbal presentation..." The gift of gab: are women to keep silent in the churches?

(lying was punishable by death back then)

 

[FHII]

VictoryinJesus,
Without agreeing or disagreeing, I appreciate your post and don't think its too far fetched. Jesus did indeed speak of unknown things. After all, it was the start of a new covenent!

 

[Davy]

But I have not made up my mind absolutely on everything. Over the years I have been serving God my mind and heart have been changed on many things. I live by faith rather than by knowledge although I believe I do have some knowledge. The trouble is we don't always know the difference between what we believe and what we know. This is why I keep going back to the "lowest room".

I have never yet on this forum pushed the button on anyone to shut them out of my display. God will use people, even people with whom we to strongly disagree to send His message to us. Who am I to put my mind in opposition to that?

I thought you said you were done wasting time in coversation with me?? What is it that you want now? You want bragging rights on how long you've served God or something?

We're supposed to live by Faith and... Knowledge (knowledge of God's Word through His Son Jesus Christ. Not bread alone, remember?).

When I'm not sure of something in God's Word (and there are still many things), then I put it on a shelf until God helps me understand per His Word. But the things I am sure about, I am sure about. So there's NO reason to go backwards for someone who has yet to come to terms with His Word and also be sure about a matter too.

So if you're still unsure of this matter about the cloven tongue, then I strongly suggest you study God's Word more on Acts 2 (even in the Greek) and stop listening to the world about it, or those who may claim to speak it. Let God's Word as written be your sole Judge, for it is the measure, not miraculous signs and wonders (those we were warned about in the last days).

 

[amadeus]

I thought you said you were done wasting time in coversation with me?? What is it that you want now? You want bragging rights on how long you've served God or something?

Have you ever regretted having said something? I have.
Have you ever changed your mind? I have. I am sorry if you were offended by my choice of words. On the other hand with your attitude as it is I won't discuss tongues and cloven tongues with you.

I would like to know is why you always seem to be in the 'attack mode'. If that is not where you are, I do apologize, but it is how it appears to me. I can understand why some people would back away from you. That was my own reaction to you, but I am back.

You insult me when I do not believe I gave you any reason to do so. If I did and it would not put me against God to do it, let me know where and how I did and I will apologize.

We're supposed to live by Faith and... Knowledge (knowledge of God's Word through His Son Jesus Christ. Not bread alone, remember?).

Yes, but how much do we really know... and I do include myself in that "we"? I know that there is much that I do not know and likely some of the things I think I know are wrong. If you are really doing better than that, I am glad to hear it.

When I'm not sure of something in God's Word (and there are still many things), then I put it on a shelf until God helps me understand per His Word. But the things I am sure about, I am sure about. So there's NO reason to go backwards for someone who has yet to come to terms with His Word and also be sure about a matter too.

I also still put some things on the shelf for the moment. I believe that it is a good practice.

As to going backwards, I am a little more willing I guess to do that. I consider the parable in Luke 14:7-11 and hold onto the words: "sit down in the lowest room" [verse 10] as a new starting point for me each time I get together with the God. Over the years since I first believed at all in Him and His Way, I have changed, that is God has changed things in me that I previously believed were set in concrete. But that's me. I cannot speak for others.

So if you're still unsure of this matter about the cloven tongue, then I strongly suggest you study God's Word more on Acts 2 (even in the Greek) and stop listening to the world about it, or those who may claim to speak it. Let God's Word as written be your sole Judge, for it is the measure, not miraculous signs and wonders (those we were warned about in the last days).

I know what I believe and what I know as well as why I believe what I do with regard to cloven tongues, but I have no desire to argue the point with you or anyone. I come to this forum to learn and/or to teach as God would have it.

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

 

[VictoryinJesus]

A new tongue:

Proverbs 8:6-9
[6] Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. [7] For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. [8] All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. [9] They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Zephaniah 3:9
[9] For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord , to serve him with one consent.

John 16:25
[25] These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

 

[bbyrd009]

"i'll stop talking here in a minute, and start showing you"
is what i read there

 

[Frank Lee]

Everything God has done He yet does. Those that deny what is written deny His word, deny Him. Those that deny His gifts deny His grace.

Those that deny the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the always accompanying gift of tongues deny His provision for spiritual warfare. A question is to them that deny him His gift of tongues. Where did you learn your denial? From the Bible or a man?

 

[Frank Lee]

Whatsoever God does is forever. Ecclesiastes 3:14.

Before I could be told the things God no longer does He did them for me. Because no one ever told me that God loved me and sent Jesus for me for a sacrifice He came and did that Himself. Ezekiel 34th chapter.

Tongues is a gift received when you are baptized in the Holy Spirit. Reference the book of Acts. Those in the 19th chapter of Acts were already believers and then were baptized in water. They then were baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues.

That you do not receive the fullness of the gift of the Holy Spirit at salvation is evidenced by what Jesus told the disciples, to wait for the promise. Also in acts chapter 19.

Brother Cornelius and company was baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues only after Peter preached to him and his friends. He was baptized in water later.

This was my case. Fortunately no denomination had reached me to tell me all the things God no longer does, wants to do etc. The very same denominations I suppose that never told me of the love of God. The same denominations that were oh so ready to tell me that unless I believed what they believed I was a goner. Dead works. Unless it is spoken by the good doctor it can't be so.

I often wonder who and what people defend and why. I wonder why a denomination and it's doctrine is held to over the very word of God. (scratching head)

Tongues are a simple subject to them that believe. The greatest experts however seem to be those that deny the gift, those that know absolutely NOTHING about it.

Isaiah 32:4 KJVS
The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.

stammerers refers to those that pray in the spirit - in tongues.

I was praying in tongues when the lord gave me the interpretation saying my wife was pregnant with the son He had promised us. After 14 years with no pregnancies she was pregnant. We went to the lab and it was so. Her body had been allergic to my sperm and killed it on contact. She got a baby book that same week and wrote his name in it. He was born right at 9 months later.

I have been building up my spirit by praying, speaking in tongues since the fall of 1977 when He cared enough to come save me. Until you have experienced God's gift for yourself you have no right to criticize it. It's like a childless woman explaining childbirth to a mother of three. You certainly have the ability to speak but do so without wisdom and appear unwise at the least to those that have believed and received.

Denominational people would come every so often on "VISITATION"

Visitation; a forced outreach by denominational church goers that are induced to go and tell people that they should go to their church. They never tell about the love of God.

I won't try to convince anyone of God's gift. I'm sorry that denominations and their doctrines are taken above God's word. But the natural man does not receive we are told.

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJVS
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned.

How peculiar that unbelievers propose to tell me the things I've experienced are not for today or that they are not from God. They have no care for me. They hold to their doctrine to their denomination rather than God's word.

Brother Jude spoke to them.
Jude 1:19-20 KJVS
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. [20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Prayer in the Holy Ghost is prayer in the spirit, prayer in tongues.

Paul said we may be praying in either tongues of men or of angels. South Korea, the largest Christian nation in the east has many spirit filled churches. A man visiting a church there heard a woman speaking in tongues. English. She was praising and glorifying God.

1 Corinthians 14:37-39 KJVS
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
[38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
[39] Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

FORBID NOT. Pardon me for yelling this.

Since I read the King James I often hear the Lord in the KJV vernacular. More in the past than now. I just hear His voice in straight up English. This may be the same for others.

If denominational believers deny God's gifts I'm sorry for them. But God's gifts are for those that believe. The unbelievers were even represented in the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:13 KJVS
Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

There will always be mockers - always.

To the mockers doctrines of their denomination are more persuasive in their life than the word of God.

With Paul;

Acts 4:20 KJVS
For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

There are workings, implementations of the anointing of the Holy Spirit that I will not go into amongst the unbelievers. They are scattered in the books of the Bible. They include a call to intercessory prayer in the spirit, tongues that is, and others very clearly outlined in Job.

If others don't want to receive, to believe then fine. But don't try to convince believers to unbelieve. Too late.

 

[Frank Lee]

All tongues are known to the Lord.

Contrary to an earlier post speaking in tongues - prayer in the spirit - is indeed a pure language.

Zephaniah 3:9 KJVS
For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord , to serve him with one consent.

Our spirit man is not our fleshly man. Our spirit man has been redeemed, forgiven, made Holy by the Lord who has caused us to be born again of incorruptible seed. The language God gives believers who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and given is a PURE language.

This is the ONLY way you can pray without ceasing.

THE ONLY way. How long can you pray with your understanding? How long before you start repeating yourself? Right. How long? Consider this point. I can praying the spirit for hours. It us a pure language. It cannot be understood by the devil and cannot be corrupted by the mind of the natural man.

You that are like believers with brother Jude know whereof I speak. To believers no explanation is necessary. To unbelievers and deniers no explanation is sufficient.

Unbelievers cannot lecture believers on subjects of God's spiritual gifts that are denied. You are out of place.

 

[Triumph1300]

Unbelievers cannot lecture believers on subjects of God's spiritual gifts that are denied. You are out of place.

That's so true.

 

[amadeus]

In the KJV of 1 Corinthians 14, the word "unknown" was added by the translators. It is not in the Greek New Testament texts.

But that phrase, "unknown tongue", those who speak a gibberish speech use that added adjective "unknown" to support their idea that gibberish no one can understand is the real cloven tongue of Pentencost when it is not.

In 1 Cor.12 thru 14, Apostle Paul is speaking of known languages of the world, not a gibberish unknown tongue. In Acts 2, they weren't speaking gibberish either. They were speaking normally, but it went out by The Holy Spirit to the peoples in their own dialects of their languages. In other words, God was the translator to each person when the Apostles spoke on Pentecost.

Even so as God is the translator/interpreter for messages given in "unknown" tongues by one believer and in the common language by another. Is our God not able?

 

[amadeus]

All tongues are known to the Lord.

Contrary to an earlier post speaking in tongues - prayer in the spirit - is indeed a pure language.

Zephaniah 3:9 KJVS
For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord , to serve him with one consent.

Our spirit man is not our fleshly man. Our spirit man has been redeemed, forgiven, made Holy by the Lord who has caused us to be born again of incorruptible seed. The language God gives believers who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and given is a PURE language.

This is the ONLY way you can pray without ceasing.

THE ONLY way. How long can you pray with your understanding? How long before you start repeating yourself? Right. How long? Consider this point. I can praying the spirit for hours. It us a pure language. It cannot be understood by the devil and cannot be corrupted by the mind of the natural man.

You that are like believers with brother Jude know whereof I speak. To believers no explanation is necessary. To unbelievers and deniers no explanation is sufficient.

Unbelievers cannot lecture believers on subjects of God's spiritual gifts that are denied. You are out of place.

Also at times there are prayers that need to be prayed that we could not pray because of our personal feelings and/or biases. As for example when my father was dying in English I was praying for God to spare him, but I suspect that my prayer in an unknown tongue was different because God knew it was time for my father to leave this world of flesh.

 

[tabletalk]

Whatsoever God does is forever. Ecclesiastes 3:14.

Before I could be told the things God no longer does He did them for me. Because no one ever told me that God loved me and sent Jesus for me for a sacrifice He came and did that Himself. Ezekiel 34th chapter.

Tongues is a gift received when you are baptized in the Holy Spirit. Reference the book of Acts. Those in the 19th chapter of Acts were already believers and then were baptized in water. They then were baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues.

That you do not receive the fullness of the gift of the Holy Spirit at salvation is evidenced by what Jesus told the disciples, to wait for the promise. Also in acts chapter 19.

Brother Cornelius and company was baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues only after Peter preached to him and his friends. He was baptized in water later.

This was my case. Fortunately no denomination had reached me to tell me all the things God no longer does, wants to do etc. The very same denominations I suppose that never told me of the love of God. The same denominations that were oh so ready to tell me that unless I believed what they believed I was a goner. Dead works. Unless it is spoken by the good doctor it can't be so.

I often wonder who and what people defend and why. I wonder why a denomination and it's doctrine is held to over the very word of God. (scratching head)

Tongues are a simple subject to them that believe. The greatest experts however seem to be those that deny the gift, those that know absolutely NOTHING about it.

Isaiah 32:4 KJVS
The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.

stammerers refers to those that pray in the spirit - in tongues.

I was praying in tongues when the lord gave me the interpretation saying my wife was pregnant with the son He had promised us. After 14 years with no pregnancies she was pregnant. We went to the lab and it was so. Her body had been allergic to my sperm and killed it on contact. She got a baby book that same week and wrote his name in it. He was born right at 9 months later.

I have been building up my spirit by praying, speaking in tongues since the fall of 1977 when He cared enough to come save me. Until you have experienced God's gift for yourself you have no right to criticize it. It's like a childless woman explaining childbirth to a mother of three. You certainly have the ability to speak but do so without wisdom and appear unwise at the least to those that have believed and received.

Denominational people would come every so often on "VISITATION"

Visitation; a forced outreach by denominational church goers that are induced to go and tell people that they should go to their church. They never tell about the love of God.

I won't try to convince anyone of God's gift. I'm sorry that denominations and their doctrines are taken above God's word. But the natural man does not receive we are told.

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJVS
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned.

How peculiar that unbelievers propose to tell me the things I've experienced are not for today or that they are not from God. They have no care for me. They hold to their doctrine to their denomination rather than God's word.

Brother Jude spoke to them.
Jude 1:19-20 KJVS
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. [20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Prayer in the Holy Ghost is prayer in the spirit, prayer in tongues.

Paul said we may be praying in either tongues of men or of angels. South Korea, the largest Christian nation in the east has many spirit filled churches. A man visiting a church there heard a woman speaking in tongues. English. She was praising and glorifying God.

1 Corinthians 14:37-39 KJVS
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
[38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
[39] Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

FORBID NOT. Pardon me for yelling this.

Since I read the King James I often hear the Lord in the KJV vernacular. More in the past than now. I just hear His voice in straight up English. This may be the same for others.

If denominational believers deny God's gifts I'm sorry for them. But God's gifts are for those that believe. The unbelievers were even represented in the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:13 KJVS
Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

There will always be mockers - always.

To the mockers doctrines of their denomination are more persuasive in their life than the word of God.

With Paul;

Acts 4:20 KJVS
For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

There are workings, implementations of the anointing of the Holy Spirit that I will not go into amongst the unbelievers. They are scattered in the books of the Bible. They include a call to intercessory prayer in the spirit, tongues that is, and others very clearly outlined in Job.

If others don't want to receive, to believe then fine. But don't try to convince believers to unbelieve. Too late.

You said:" Isaiah 32:4 KJVS
The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.

stammerers refers to those that pray in the spirit - in tongues."

How do you come to interpret 'stammerers' to mean speaking in tongues?