I'd like to have a calm, rational conversation about End Times...anyone?

[Naomi25]

So...this might be asking too much. I have noticed that for some reason, nothing seems to send people off the deep end like discussing the end times. People just get mad. If I disagree with their eschatology, then I must be the devil!

So...here's where I am. I grew up in a Christian house where we didn't really talk about end times much, but when we did, I suppose it was with a Pre-trib flavour, because that's what my Grandparents where. Once I grew up myself and became serious about my faith, I decided it was a doctrine that shouldn't be ignored, so I looked into it, assuming that I would follow in my Grandparents footsteps...wonderful, godly people that they were! However, I just couldn't read Pretribulationalism into scripture. So, after a few years of wrestling, I landed Amil (yes, I can hear many of you screaming!). And truly, I have not had my decision shaken throughout the years, only strengthened. I cannot...simply cannot, see how anyone can read Dispensationalism into the texts (sorry, no disrespect meant!).

That being said, I fully acknowledge that I'm faaaarrr from a scholar and could be wrong. And that plenty of godly, wonderful Christian people hold to that position. In fact I've just met a lady who is probably one of the smartest I've ever met (she used to be a scientist before she became ill) and she holds to the Pre-trib position. So I'm wondering how? How can she hold to a position that I consider slightly illogical?

So...I was hoping that some people here might answer (calmly...I really don't want to get into a name calling session) some questions I have about Pretribulationalism.

Ok, first one: How can you say that you hold to a 'literal interpretation', when you just don't? If Hal Lindsey can turn giant bugs into helicopters, then that's not being literal. If the 1000 years has to be a literal 1000 years, then when, in the OT, when God says he owns "the cattle on a 1000 hills"...then I suppose we can only assume he only owns them...not all of them (as the text clearly wants us to take away)....you get my drift. It seems you pick and choose 'literal' to suit your purposes, but then criticise us when we do it based on the genre of the book in question. How does that work? Do you have a hermeneutic behind how you pick and choose that I'm not aware of?

2nd: How can you find a 'gap' in the last of Daniel's 70th week? Doesn't your 'literal' interpretation mean that we'd need to be specifically told it's there? Even without specific's I don't see any sort of implication of it. Without specific, or implication, it seems to me that going to the text without a preconcieved notion of a 'gap' and then a seven year Tribulation wouldn't see you come away with one. It isn't there. So I suppose my question here is...where is it that you...exactly...get the gap? If it's simply the fact that "it hasn't happened yet", then I'm not sure that's strong enough. Do you have biblical evidence for there being, very specifically, a gap?

3rd: And this one is just a clincher for me. You believe that once Christ returns (second return, part 2) and ushers in his millennial reign on the earth, that after the thousand years, Satan will be released and that he will lead the 'nations' of the earth in a revolt against Jesus. Are we honestly saying that after our Lord and Saviour has ruled and reigned over us for a thousand wonderful years of peace and harmony, that humankind is going to experience another fall? This is really no small thing we're talking about. Jesus will be King. No one will be opposing him. Sure, you say not all mankind will be 'saved' and we all know what human nature is capable of. But the whole bible is full of dealing with the 'fall out' of the first rebellion. Can we truly believe that one, tiny verse in Revelation is all that the bible has to say about a potential kick in the teeth of Jesus' reign? It's obscene, the very thought of it, isn't it? I suppose what I'm asking for here, again, is what your views have to say on this. Is this view only based on Revelations 20...on that small verse there within?

4th: Probably my final question at the moment. I suppose one of the most baffling things I find about the Pre-trib, is how you manage to separate the two 2nd comings of Jesus. I simply cannot find that in scripture. Yes...I can find proof of the Rapture, the doctrine is clear...when Jesus returns Christians will meet him in the air, where we will be given our new bodies. However, I find nothing that tells me that this will be secretly seven years before his other coming. In fact, everything I find that mentions his return seems to be rather final. The Day of the Lord (2 Pet 3:10), also known as Christ's second coming (1 Cor 15:23-24, 2Thess 1:7) seems to usher in the renewal of the cosmos (2 Pet 3:10), the resurrection of the unjust (John 5:29), final judgment of the unjust (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:6, 8-9) as well as the resurrection of the just (John 5:29), final judgement of the just (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:7) and, of course, the defeat of the last enemy, death (1 Cor 15:23-26).
The same passage that talk about cosmic renewal talk about him coming as a thief...isn't that the term you use to describe the Rapture? You have to, because if you follow, we'll be able to calculate when he'll come next, after the Tribulation starts. He won't be thief-like then, he'll be 7 years to the dot.
So how do you separate all these events? How can Jesus return and Judge the unjust, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and make the cosmos new, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and put an end to death, if it's the Rapture? Where in any of these passages does it allow for a secret return with a seven year gap? I can't see it, and I'm not sure how you do? I'm open to passages and pointers if you have them....

 

[Glen55]

If one believes in the mystery which is Christ in you then the srcond coming is an outwardly phrased event that takes place within us the kingdom of God Luke 17:20-21.
The prodigal son being an example of the divine seed that fell and died/slept in a flesh /far away land while experiencing tribulation which woke him up to where he came from, and dead to his father until his return. It all takes place in you not secular history Galatians 4:24, Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16, 2Cor 3:6.

 

[theophilus]

It seems you pick and choose 'literal' to suit your purposes, but then criticise us when we do it based on the genre of the book in question.

No, we do exactly what you do, consider the kind of writing so we can tell whether the author intended to statement to be literal. Poetry often contains figurative language so we know that many statements in the Psalms are not intended to be interpreted literally. Many of the teachings of Jesus are called parables, so they are not literally true. Historians generally don't use figurative language so historical statements are interpreted literally. Prophecy is history written before the events actually happened so it is generally to be interpreted literally.

How can you find a 'gap' in the last of Daniel's 70th week?

Let's look at what Daniel 9:26,27 says.

And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.

The first sentence speaks of the anointed one, Christ, being cut off. This is the crucifixion, which took place at the end of 69 weeks. This was followed by the destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in AD 70. After that come wars and desolation. This all takes place after the 69th week but before the 70th week. The 70th week begins when the prince makes a 7 year covenant.

Are we honestly saying that after our Lord and Saviour has ruled and reigned over us for a thousand wonderful years of peace and harmony, that humankind is going to experience another fall?

No, humankind doesn't experience a fall. This just shows the those born during the Millenium will inherit Adam's fallen nature and when they have the opportunity they will show their true nature by following Satan.

Yes...I can find proof of the Rapture, the doctrine is clear...when Jesus returns Christians will meet him in the air, where we will be given our new bodies. However, I find nothing that tells me that this will be secretly seven years before his other coming.

Let's look at what Paul says about the rapture.

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

He calls it a mystery, something that had not been previously revealed. When this takes place there will be a separation between the saved and the unsaved. But in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus describes how he will separate the sheep from the goats when he returns. This shows that some time must have elapsed between the rapture and his return so that there will be an opportunity for people to put their trust in him and be saved.

If you want to understand the pretrib position I suggest that you visit this site: Rapture Ready - Rapture resource for the end times

 

[Chase200mph]

The end times is a subject used to drive revenue up for those who cannot muster an honest profession. Out if all the contradiction the Bible offers, this is one of the greatest. Revelation condemned by a large part of Christianity already it represents little more than bantering between the 43000 plus Christian factions. By large Revelation was drawn up in in the Europe and and possibly by 12 year old girl.


There is nothing rational about it and this is why conversations offer the diatribes they often do...

 

[ScottA]

So...this might be asking too much. I have noticed that for some reason, nothing seems to send people off the deep end like discussing the end times. People just get mad. If I disagree with their eschatology, then I must be the devil!

So...here's where I am. I grew up in a Christian house where we didn't really talk about end times much, but when we did, I suppose it was with a Pre-trib flavour, because that's what my Grandparents where. Once I grew up myself and became serious about my faith, I decided it was a doctrine that shouldn't be ignored, so I looked into it, assuming that I would follow in my Grandparents footsteps...wonderful, godly people that they were! However, I just couldn't read Pretribulationalism into scripture. So, after a few years of wrestling, I landed Amil (yes, I can hear many of you screaming!). And truly, I have not had my decision shaken throughout the years, only strengthened. I cannot...simply cannot, see how anyone can read Dispensationalism into the texts (sorry, no disrespect meant!).

That being said, I fully acknowledge that I'm faaaarrr from a scholar and could be wrong. And that plenty of godly, wonderful Christian people hold to that position. In fact I've just met a lady who is probably one of the smartest I've ever met (she used to be a scientist before she became ill) and she holds to the Pre-trib position. So I'm wondering how? How can she hold to a position that I consider slightly illogical?

So...I was hoping that some people here might answer (calmly...I really don't want to get into a name calling session) some questions I have about Pretribulationalism.

Ok, first one: How can you say that you hold to a 'literal interpretation', when you just don't? If Hal Lindsey can turn giant bugs into helicopters, then that's not being literal. If the 1000 years has to be a literal 1000 years, then when, in the OT, when God says he owns "the cattle on a 1000 hills"...then I suppose we can only assume he only owns them...not all of them (as the text clearly wants us to take away)....you get my drift. It seems you pick and choose 'literal' to suit your purposes, but then criticise us when we do it based on the genre of the book in question. How does that work? Do you have a hermeneutic behind how you pick and choose that I'm not aware of?

2nd: How can you find a 'gap' in the last of Daniel's 70th week? Doesn't your 'literal' interpretation mean that we'd need to be specifically told it's there? Even without specific's I don't see any sort of implication of it. Without specific, or implication, it seems to me that going to the text without a preconcieved notion of a 'gap' and then a seven year Tribulation wouldn't see you come away with one. It isn't there. So I suppose my question here is...where is it that you...exactly...get the gap? If it's simply the fact that "it hasn't happened yet", then I'm not sure that's strong enough. Do you have biblical evidence for there being, very specifically, a gap?

3rd: And this one is just a clincher for me. You believe that once Christ returns (second return, part 2) and ushers in his millennial reign on the earth, that after the thousand years, Satan will be released and that he will lead the 'nations' of the earth in a revolt against Jesus. Are we honestly saying that after our Lord and Saviour has ruled and reigned over us for a thousand wonderful years of peace and harmony, that humankind is going to experience another fall? This is really no small thing we're talking about. Jesus will be King. No one will be opposing him. Sure, you say not all mankind will be 'saved' and we all know what human nature is capable of. But the whole bible is full of dealing with the 'fall out' of the first rebellion. Can we truly believe that one, tiny verse in Revelation is all that the bible has to say about a potential kick in the teeth of Jesus' reign? It's obscene, the very thought of it, isn't it? I suppose what I'm asking for here, again, is what your views have to say on this. Is this view only based on Revelations 20...on that small verse there within?

4th: Probably my final question at the moment. I suppose one of the most baffling things I find about the Pre-trib, is how you manage to separate the two 2nd comings of Jesus. I simply cannot find that in scripture. Yes...I can find proof of the Rapture, the doctrine is clear...when Jesus returns Christians will meet him in the air, where we will be given our new bodies. However, I find nothing that tells me that this will be secretly seven years before his other coming. In fact, everything I find that mentions his return seems to be rather final. The Day of the Lord (2 Pet 3:10), also known as Christ's second coming (1 Cor 15:23-24, 2Thess 1:7) seems to usher in the renewal of the cosmos (2 Pet 3:10), the resurrection of the unjust (John 5:29), final judgment of the unjust (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:6, 8-9) as well as the resurrection of the just (John 5:29), final judgement of the just (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:7) and, of course, the defeat of the last enemy, death (1 Cor 15:23-26).
The same passage that talk about cosmic renewal talk about him coming as a thief...isn't that the term you use to describe the Rapture? You have to, because if you follow, we'll be able to calculate when he'll come next, after the Tribulation starts. He won't be thief-like then, he'll be 7 years to the dot.
So how do you separate all these events? How can Jesus return and Judge the unjust, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and make the cosmos new, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and put an end to death, if it's the Rapture? Where in any of these passages does it allow for a secret return with a seven year gap? I can't see it, and I'm not sure how you do? I'm open to passages and pointers if you have them....

Naomi25,

If you enter into this or any debate...a debate you will get. But there is no debate in this matter except in the world. This, and many such topics are simply among those things which God has "confused" among language, and which Christ has placed between parents and their children and brother against brother. This is not a mystery, but a declaration made with reason and purpose. All such matters are the subject of debate for the same reason...and it is within that underlying reason that I believe you ask your own question: Why has God put even his own people in this cycle of debate?

The answer is in the title of the thread, in the words: End Times.

Within the Truth, there is no "Times." We acknowledge that "It is finished" with Christ...and then proceed "in Christ" to speak of times being unfinished as if the end were future. Do you see the problem? There is nothing reasonable here...except from a worldly perspective.

What you are referring to, is "a time, times, and a half of time." And just as there is only "one begotten" there are not many times (subject to debate), but One time: the time of Christ...which...is finished, just as he said. If you believe in Christ, believe also what he said: "It is finished."

As such, the "End Times" are the times of men, the times of the world, and not of God. If you then, seek the truth among men of the world, you will indeed find debate. The only conclusion that can be drawn that does not contradict the truth from God, is that the times of men who are "in Christ" unfold [as] if in time, where there is no [actual] time. The time of Christ has come...and...gone. It is finished.

Why?

Because, by design, these multitude of generations of Christ do indeed unfold. But they do not unfold "in Christ" but in us. This is the manifestation, not of what "was" or "will be"...but what "is" (already finished) in Christ...wherein all positions of future tribulation and end times are in error. We simply experience our own part "in Christ's" ["great"] tribulation in our own worldly times, as designed by God in a way that it may be lived out and experienced just as Christ experience life.

The tribulation? It is finished.

 

[ScottA]

No, we do exactly what you do,

This...is true.

 

[bbyrd009]

If one believes in the mystery which is Christ in you then the srcond coming is an outwardly phrased event that takes place within us the kingdom of God Luke 17:20-21.
The prodigal son being an example of the divine seed that fell and died/slept in a flesh /far away land while experiencing tribulation which woke him up to where he came from, and dead to his father until his return. It all takes place in you not secular history Galatians 4:24, Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16, 2Cor 3:6.

Word

 

[Questor]

So...this might be asking too much. I have noticed that for some reason, nothing seems to send people off the deep end like discussing the end times. People just get mad. If I disagree with their eschatology, then I must be the devil!

I don't think anyone has prophecy completely figured out...we only have a view about what the prophecies that fits each of our ideas of prophecy. I am not entirely a literalist, nor a futurist, nor a preterist, nor an idealist about prophecy, but all of them at once. Some things in prophecy have already been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled again, in a final way.


So if I seem to see some things in Mathew 24 fulfilled already, like AD 70 needing the Believers to head for the hills, that does not mean I do not also see it happening again, soon.

 

[Questor]

So...here's where I am. I grew up in a Christian house where we didn't really talk about end times much, but when we did, I suppose it was with a Pre-trib flavour, because that's what my Grandparents where. Once I grew up myself and became serious about my faith, I decided it was a doctrine that shouldn't be ignored, so I looked into it, assuming that I would follow in my Grandparents footsteps...wonderful, godly people that they were! However, I just couldn't read Pretribulationalism into scripture. So, after a few years of wrestling, I landed Amil (yes, I can hear many of you screaming!). And truly, I have not had my decision shaken throughout the years, only strengthened. I cannot...simply cannot, see how anyone can read Dispensationalism into the texts (sorry, no disrespect meant!).

That's okay with me...I tried very hard for years, and can't see dispensations exactly, although G-d does change how he works with mankind through time, and a pre-trib 'secret' rapture for the church, no matter how passionately some people say it is there, seem ridiculous to me. To me, Pre-Trib advocates have stitched together a few words from one scripture to another, and made a doctrine out of it.


I see a 'catching away' just as Yeshua returns, and that only to meet him in the air as he descends to the Mount of Olives, just as it says in scripture, and being changed to an incorruptible body at the same time.


I don't think meeting Yeshua in the air, as he returns. to be anything except like welcoming the Bridegroom, before following him into the bedchamber!

 

[Questor]

That being said, I fully acknowledge that I'm faaaarrr from a scholar and could be wrong. And that plenty of godly, wonderful Christian people hold to that position. In fact I've just met a lady who is probably one of the smartest I've ever met (she used to be a scientist before she became ill) and she holds to the Pre-trib position. So I'm wondering how? How can she hold to a position that I consider slightly illogical?

Because she wishes to avoid the idea of actually suffering any 'tribulation' prior to Yeshua coming. But Yeshua himself said to expect tribulation, which word means 'pressure'...like peer pressure, and coersion to do as others do. It does not always mean persecution although that happens too.

Over the Centuries, people have died for their beliefs, and will again...indeed, in many places are dying now. It doesn't mean that all people will suffer this way, but they will suffer 'pressure' from the world to change their views, and be more worldly.

One simply has to politely go one's own way, and pray for protection, know that G-d has promised to protect those who are of the Church of 'Brotherly Love', which not all are, nor do we know who G-d will choose to protect, and who he will not, preferring to prepare and use them as a witness, even unto death, so we need to be prepared for that.

It means that your friendships might get scarcer on the ground, and people you see might be mad at you for not agreeing with them. I just don't argue anymore, but explain my views when someone asks.

 

[Questor]

So...I was hoping that some people here might answer (calmly...I really don't want to get into a name calling session) some questions I have about Pretribulationalism.


Ok, first one: How can you say that you hold to a 'literal interpretation', when you just don't? If Hal Lindsey can turn giant bugs into helicopters, then that's not being literal. If the 1000 years has to be a literal 1000 years, then when, in the OT, when God says he owns "the cattle on a 1000 hills"...then I suppose we can only assume he only owns them...not all of them (as the text clearly wants us to take away)....you get my drift. It seems you pick and choose 'literal' to suit your purposes, but then criticise us when we do it based on the genre of the book in question. How does that work? Do you have a hermeneutic behind how you pick and choose that I'm not aware of?

Not everything CAN be treated in a literal manner. Some things in prophecy and in Scripture are literal, and some are euphemisms, others parable, or likenesses, others are figurative language. You have to look at each separate instance, and see what makes sense to a logical mind, always presuming that miraculous things can happen, and also remember that the people seeing visions of the end days were describing them in terms that people of their time would understand.


To give you an example, when the New Jerusalem is described as being all covered with gems, and made of gold that you can see through, it is referencing a beautiful city made of the very best and most expensive materials, that are bright, colorful, and expensive...not that everything is actually made of the gems themselves, or decorated with them.

 

[Questor]

So...I was hoping that some people here might answer (calmly...I really don't want to get into a name calling session) some questions I have about Pretribulationalism.


Ok, first one: How can you say that you hold to a 'literal interpretation', when you just don't? If Hal Lindsey can turn giant bugs into helicopters, then that's not being literal. If the 1000 years has to be a literal 1000 years, then when, in the OT, when God says he owns "the cattle on a 1000 hills"...then I suppose we can only assume he only owns them...not all of them (as the text clearly wants us to take away)....you get my drift. It seems you pick and choose 'literal' to suit your purposes, but then criticise us when we do it based on the genre of the book in question. How does that work? Do you have a hermeneutic behind how you pick and choose that I'm not aware of?

Not everything CAN be treated in a literal manner. Some things in prophecy and in Scripture are literal, and some are euphemisms, others parable, or likenesses, others are figurative language. You have to look at each separate instance, and see what makes sense to a logical mind, always presuming that miraculous things can happen, and also remember that the people seeing visions of the end days were describing them in terms that people of their time would understand.


To give you an example, when the New Jerusalem is described as being all covered with gems, and made of gold that you can see through, it is referencing a beautiful city made of the very best and most expensive materials, that are bright, colorful, and expensive...not that everything is necessarily made of the gems themselves, or decorated with them.

 

[Questor]

2nd: How can you find a 'gap' in the last of Daniel's 70th week? Doesn't your 'literal' interpretation mean that we'd need to be specifically told it's there? Even without specific's I don't see any sort of implication of it. Without specific, or implication, it seems to me that going to the text without a preconcieved notion of a 'gap' and then a seven year Tribulation wouldn't see you come away with one. It isn't there. So I suppose my question here is...where is it that you...exactly...get the gap? If it's simply the fact that "it hasn't happened yet", then I'm not sure that's strong enough. Do you have biblical evidence for there being, very specifically, a gap?

There is a gap covered in the propheicies in Daniel, but it is not specified as a gap. Daniel stated what Gabriel told him, that there would be 70 shavua determined on his people, then stated clearly that there would be 7 shavua, then 62 shavua, then 7 shavua, adding up to 70 shavua. The breaks between the shavua are the gaps, and can be found in the historical record. In history, there was a long gap between Ezra first returning from Babylon to Jerusalem to build the Temple, and Hezekiah returning to rebuild the walls. There has obviously been a gap between that time to Yeshua's advent, and from his death to now.


From the time that the decree went out to rebuild from Artaxerxes, there were 69 shavua that passed...exactly 483 prophetical years worth of days (a prophetical year is 360 days long) until Yeshua appeared in Jerusalem.

I have calculated the 69 weeks of years to the day Yeshua rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, as many have, or to other points in Yeshua's ministry...it depends on your Calendar, and which computer calculator you use, all of which are online, and disagree with each other slightly.

I have published one long article on the matter which describes why it would be to Yeshua returning to Jerusalem, but I am only working with limited human capacity, and am not a scholar, so I can only state what I have found to be true, and let other people judge. We don't have to be exactly right at this time, because we know that calandars are slippery when you try to find evidence to compare them.

My article is here:
How do you ‘Calculate the Days’ to Messiah? at my website
TheGodConspiracy.com


The Computer Calculator I use is at Convert a Date
calendarhome.com

 

[Questor]

3rd: And this one is just a clincher for me. You believe that once Christ returns (second return, part 2) and ushers in his millennial reign on the earth, that after the thousand years, Satan will be released and that he will lead the 'nations' of the earth in a revolt against Jesus. Are we honestly saying that after our Lord and Saviour has ruled and reigned over us for a thousand wonderful years of peace and harmony, that humankind is going to experience another fall? This is really no small thing we're talking about. Jesus will be King. No one will be opposing him. Sure, you say not all mankind will be 'saved' and we all know what human nature is capable of. But the whole bible is full of dealing with the 'fall out' of the first rebellion. Can we truly believe that one, tiny verse in Revelation is all that the bible has to say about a potential kick in the teeth of Jesus' reign? It's obscene, the very thought of it, isn't it? I suppose what I'm asking for here, again, is what your views have to say on this. Is this view only based on Revelations 20...on that small verse there within?

Most people do not read the Prophecies together, as a puzzle is put together. My understanding of the Millennium is that the Remnant of Jews and of the Nations that are not 'saved' at Yeshua's return, but have satisfied Yeshua's requirement of having shown kindness to his brethren, by giving even so little as a cup of water, AND not taking the Mark of the Beast. walk into the Millennium in human form...mortally human, to replenish the earth as the sand of the sea, just as promised to Abraham. Not all the children born to those humans will believe over that period of time, that their sternly, ruling with a rod of Iron King Yeshua is the Messiah. There will be discontent on the earth in the Millenium, and those people that believe in Yeshua must yet be tested as we are being tested by not having the entire time period be easy.


Those Jews and Gentile that trust in Yeshua for their salvation enter the Millenium as incorruptible, changed beings, and when it is said that we rule and reign with Yeshua, it means the DMV, and the Meter Maid, and the Schoolteachers, and Police. They are jobs that must be carried out by those that follow Yeshua's ways, and have the Mosaic Covenant written on their hearts, so that they all keep it sufficiently well to please the Messiah, and stand as an example to others of Believers that have graduated, so to speak, from Kindergarten to First Grade.

 

[Questor]

4th: Probably my final question at the moment. I suppose one of the most baffling things I find about the Pre-trib, is how you manage to separate the two 2nd comings of Jesus. I simply cannot find that in scripture. Yes...I can find proof of the Rapture, the doctrine is clear...when Jesus returns Christians will meet him in the air, where we will be given our new bodies. However, I find nothing that tells me that this will be secretly seven years before his other coming. In fact, everything I find that mentions his return seems to be rather final. The Day of the Lord (2 Pet 3:10), also known as Christ's second coming (1 Cor 15:23-24, 2Thess 1:7) seems to usher in the renewal of the cosmos (2 Pet 3:10), the resurrection of the unjust (John 5:29), final judgment of the unjust (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:6, 8-9) as well as the resurrection of the just (John 5:29), final judgement of the just (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:7) and, of course, the defeat of the last enemy, death (1 Cor 15:23-26).

Well, I don't think that one can have two separate comings of Yeshua...he said he would return at the end of the bad times as specifically stated in Matthew 24, and then more prophecies are given throughout Scripture that describe how bad that time will get. Believers, however, will be protected from the Wrath of G-d given by Yeshua, presumbably the Vial Judgements in Revelation, by being gathered to him as he descends to take care of matters on the ground.


Presumably, Believers in Yeshua are even made part of the army of G-d that accompanies him, even though all the fighting can be accomplished with the sword of Yeshua's tongue, and not with bladed weapons.

 

[Questor]

The same passage that talk about cosmic renewal talk about him coming as a thief...isn't that the term you use to describe the Rapture? You have to, because if you follow, we'll be able to calculate when he'll come next, after the Tribulation starts. He won't be thief-like then, he'll be 7 years to the dot.

So how do you separate all these events? How can Jesus return and Judge the unjust, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and make the cosmos new, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and put an end to death, if it's the Rapture? Where in any of these passages does it allow for a secret return with a seven year gap? I can't see it, and I'm not sure how you do? I'm open to passages and pointers if you have them....

'Coming as a thief' is a figure of speech, not a specific description, as it references the Parable where the thief can come at a time when the householder is not watching for such a person. It is meant to encourage Believers in Yeshua to be ever watchful for his coming, and to be aware that prophecy must be fulfilled as stated, given us the 'signs of the times'.


I am being very general here, so as to start a clear answer to your questions, and because I have an appointment to keep. But I will be back to enter into the 'conversation, in the event my imput would be of any help. And you can always email me at [email protected].

 

[Guestman]

So...this might be asking too much. I have noticed that for some reason, nothing seems to send people off the deep end like discussing the end times. People just get mad. If I disagree with their eschatology, then I must be the devil!

So...here's where I am. I grew up in a Christian house where we didn't really talk about end times much, but when we did, I suppose it was with a Pre-trib flavour, because that's what my Grandparents where. Once I grew up myself and became serious about my faith, I decided it was a doctrine that shouldn't be ignored, so I looked into it, assuming that I would follow in my Grandparents footsteps...wonderful, godly people that they were! However, I just couldn't read Pretribulationalism into scripture. So, after a few years of wrestling, I landed Amil (yes, I can hear many of you screaming!). And truly, I have not had my decision shaken throughout the years, only strengthened. I cannot...simply cannot, see how anyone can read Dispensationalism into the texts (sorry, no disrespect meant!).

That being said, I fully acknowledge that I'm faaaarrr from a scholar and could be wrong. And that plenty of godly, wonderful Christian people hold to that position. In fact I've just met a lady who is probably one of the smartest I've ever met (she used to be a scientist before she became ill) and she holds to the Pre-trib position. So I'm wondering how? How can she hold to a position that I consider slightly illogical?

So...I was hoping that some people here might answer (calmly...I really don't want to get into a name calling session) some questions I have about Pretribulationalism.

Ok, first one: How can you say that you hold to a 'literal interpretation', when you just don't? If Hal Lindsey can turn giant bugs into helicopters, then that's not being literal. If the 1000 years has to be a literal 1000 years, then when, in the OT, when God says he owns "the cattle on a 1000 hills"...then I suppose we can only assume he only owns them...not all of them (as the text clearly wants us to take away)....you get my drift. It seems you pick and choose 'literal' to suit your purposes, but then criticise us when we do it based on the genre of the book in question. How does that work? Do you have a hermeneutic behind how you pick and choose that I'm not aware of?

I will chime in, taking on one subtopic at a time, starting with the "first one" on the "1000 years" in the Bible book of Revelation. The question of whether or not it is literal is a valid one. For example, in Koine Greek, the language that Revelation was written in, has a definite article "the" but does not have an indefinite article such as "a", such as "the man" showing a specific person as opposed to "a man" that leaves it as unclear as to who is spoken of.

At Revelation 20:6, the apostle John uses the definite Greek article ho (the) the ensure no ambiguity with regards to persons and time: "Happy and holy is anyone (literally "the one", having the definite Greek article ho) having part in the (Greek ho) first resurrection (establishing that there is only one "first resurrection"); over these the (Greek ho) second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God (literally "the God", establishing that there is only one "true God", John 17:3) and of the (Greek ho) Christ (only one Christ that serves as "the power of God and the wisdom of God", 1 Cor 1:24), and they will rule as kings with him for the (Greek ho) 1,000 years".

Parallel this with John 1 whereby John writes: "In the beginning was the (Greek ho) Word, and the (Greek ho) Word was with God (literally "the God" or Greek ho theos), and the (Greek ho) Word was a god (no definite article as before God at the beginning of John 1:1, distinguishing "the God" from "the Word" as "a god"). This one was in the beginning with God [literally "the God" or Greek ho theos]".(John 1:1, 2)

In addition, it is good if a person has some familiarity with Bible chronology. Our Maker, Jehovah God, established that the number "seven" has significance, meaning completeness of this or that with regard to his purpose. Seven days completes one week, and at Joshua 6, it says that "seven priests carrying seven ram's horns......marched around the city (of Jericho)......for six days".(Jos 6:13, 14)

But "on the seventh day.......they marched around the city seven times. And on the seventh time, the priests blew the horns" so that city wall fell down flat.(Jos 6:15, 16, 20) Hence, seven in the Bible means completeness with regard to accomplishing something when God is involved.(see Rev 1:20 with regard to the number "seven")

At Genesis 1, it shows that over a period of six "creative" days, God prepared the earth for the crescendo of his creation - man and woman. But at Genesis 2, it establishes that on the "seventh day" God "rested"or desisted from creating anything else.(Gen 2:2) His purpose for the earth, of having it filled with "meek" ones was yet to be fulfilled (Gen 1:28; Ps 37:11, 29), that being accomplished by the end of the "seventh day".

Thus, when one does a critical chronological examination (which I personally could not do, but only with help), based on a pivotal year (such as 14 C.E. when Augustus Caesar died or 539 B.C.E. when ancient Babylon was overthrown), it has been ascertained that Adam was created on 4,026 B.C.E. From that starting point in time, mankind has traveled forward some 6,000 years, placing us in the "last days".(2 Tim 3:1)

These "last days" or "the time of the end" (Dan 2:28; 12:4) is soon to end, for mankind has been in this time frame since 1914 C.E. and in which Jesus paralleled it with the "days of Noah".(Matt 24:37-39) So, counting the 6,000 years of human history and adding "the 1,000 years", this will complete the "seventh (creative) day" of about 7,000 years, as Jehovah has established the number seven as meaning completeness of a particular aspect of his eternal purpose.

Hence, at Revelation 20:6, "the 1,000 years" is literal and not far off from beginning.

 

[LambOfChrist]

Good morning Naomi25.

Are you ready for the ride of your life? There is so much that can be said here. I am not sure where to begin. I assume from your questions that you are not willing to follow a religious version of Christianity. This is the first step in building your relationship with Jesus. Now you have received the love of the truth. Hold it dearly as many will try to deliver you from it. This is your first love.

Now for literal interpretation: this is something that you must rely on the holy ghost for. There are parables in scripture that are not meant to be taken literally and there are some prophecies that cannot be taken literally. However, there are some prophetic scriptures that require revelation to understand and once the revelation comes the text becomes obviously literal. I will come to that soon.

I personally believe the scriptures are true in the original tongue but there is some truth lost in interpretation, though the salvation message holds true in all bibles that I have read. It is the deeper things that require study and revelation. There are some obvious errors in scripture such as the order of one of the bloodlines of Jesus, don't recall which one sorry. But when I compared it to the bloodline in the old testament I found that a couple of names were messed up. Does this take away from the gospel? Not at all. Prophecy proves that the gospel is true. Another error is the demonic that Jesus met, with the legion in him. Matthew says there was one demonic man while Luke says there were 2 men possessed. The story is told exactly the same so this is the same event. The answer to the obvious question is that we are human subject to error. I sit and listen to my sons tell of an event from their childhood and they argue that it went down this way or that way. Obviously it went down but one does not remember correctly. It is the same with some historical events in scripture. But the history is not the word of God, the commandments, the feasts, and the prophecies are from God. The rest is pasted down history. Those who argue over such things are either non-believers or some are still on the milk of the word.

When Joel and John speak of the locust they are obviously symbolic to a point. They are not grasshoppers but they are not helicopters either. These are men but their numbers are so great and they sweep across the land with such efficiency that they are like locust. They have long hair and beards but they have one characteristic that is different. They have teeth like a lion.

Now I will give you a revelation that, if you can receive it, you will see scripture in a different light. I think your second question was answered well by Theophilus. The space between the crucifixion and the destruction of the temple make it obvious that we must wait for the covenant. A covenant or an agreement, not a peace treaty. Did you know that the EU, the original 10 horned beast, made a 7 year covenant with Israel and many other nations in the Middle East in 2007. It is called the European Neighborhood Partnership Instrument. The EU runs on a 7 year budget so it was only a 7 year agreement. It was not a peace treaty, but that is not a scriptural requirement. In the middle of that 7 years nothing happened so it was not Daniel's covenant. However, on January 1st, 2014 they renewed this agreement with strong language and a goal to bring about a 2 state solution to the Palestinian Israeli conflict. I am watching the end of June this year with great anticipation. Is it the Daniel covenant? Only time will tell, but it fits the criteria.

As for question 3: You must understand the roll of Islam in prophecy to understand this. There are 3 main demonic entities in the end times. One is Babylon the Great, this is the Vatican with it's 7 heads which are the 7 mainline religions of the world all under one head, the Pope, and it's New World Order. The second is the EU with it's 10 horns ruled by the Vatican. The third is Islam. Gog and Magog. Have you ever noticed that Ezekiel says that they are destroyed on the mountains by God with fire and that in Rev they are still here at the end of the millennium and then destroyed by God with fire? Curious how virtually every prophecy teacher that I have heard has missed this. So Islam remains an entity for the 1000 year reign of Christ. Absurd you say? No just scriptural. Understand that Muslims expect the second coming of Christ just as Christians do. But they don't see the son of God coming, they see a prophet like Mohammad coming back. So when he comes most Muslims will think that the prophecies of the Quran are being fulfilled and will not serve him as the Christ but as the voice of God. No-one can tell you really what the millennial reign will be like because we don't have enough scripture to declare it to us. We rely on our imaginations and what we think Christ is showing us. What we can surmise from Ezekiel 40.... is that Jesus will rein from Jerusalem but will live north of Jerusalem. The division of the land places him in a section outside of the city. But he will go into the city to sit on his throne. According to Ezekiel he will be doing sacrifices in accordance with the Levitical laws. We are told by Isaiah that the lamb will lay with the lion. (I actually have a goat and a part wolf that play together as we speak). But we don't know if this is during the millennium or after the millennium. We do know from Ezekiel that anyone who does not bring their offerings to the prince, Jesus, will have their land cursed. This is of course if we can accept that the prince in Ezekiel is the Messiah. It says that he will offer sacrifice for his own sins as well as his people. That is curious. However, who else could this prince be?

There is a revelation that may explain some of this but it has been hard for most to receive because of our training. I will give you a small explanation of this. You can read further by visiting my blogspot at tkicbs.blogspot.ca if it catches your attention.

I believe that the earth we live on is not a solid rock or a bunch of broken rocks sliding around a mantle deep below the surface. The whole concept goes against rational thinking. I believe we are living on a hollow earth with an outer crust then a layer of lava and then an inner crust only some 500 miles beneath our feet. On the inner surface there are lakes and rivers and trees and birds and bees and "people"

That should get some comments.

At the very core of the earth there is a star suspended some 3000 miles above the inner surface giving light and energy to the inside. If you have ever watched the movie Journey To The Center of The Earth you will understand the concept. Now this was a very hard belief to accept and I needed proof from scripture and from simple science. But after many years of research and prayer I have become more than convinced and find scripture far easier to understand with the hollow earth. Look at Revelation 9. There is a beast type king who ascends from a bottomless pit. He comes from the north of Israel. I believe that there is a hole in the North Pole that leads inside the earth and one in the south pole as well. These holes are flooded with ocean waters and ice. However, I believe that at certain times the holes open when the earth is closest to the sun and perhaps the other planets are in the area on their orbit at low tide. At this time the waters are pulled away to the equator enough to expose the hole for a short period and then as the tides change the holes are plugged once again. It is possible that they remain open for longer periods during the hottest months of the year.

 

[LambOfChrist]

Understand that I don't take my beliefs lightly. This is not something that I want to believe or imagined. This is something that I thought the Lord was showing me that I could not believe so I had to prove it. So over a period of over 10 years I researched everything I could to see if it was viable. I proved beyond a doubt that the earth is hollow. One of the first things that came to mind was that if the earth is hollow then it will be revealed in scripture. And it is! From Genesis to Revelation. The ice age is explained without the need of an asteroid hit. The flood of Noah is explained with the waters bursting for like from a mothers womb as Job 38 declares. The star falling in Rev 8 and the star having the key to open the pit in Rev 9. These things become obvious with a hollow earth.

Even the 6 day steps of creation reveal a hollow earth. But that is a long conversation that is explained on my blog. I could copy and paste it here but it is simpler if you visit it at tkicbs.blogspot.ca It is a lonely site but it is a revelation.

You see God is our creator. He is the beginning and the end. He is the alpha and omega. He began creation in Genesis, he lost it, so to speak, in Genesis, but he bought it back though Christ's obedience. We understand that when it relates to our soul but few understand how it relates to the planet.

Look at the galaxy! There are arguably 8 to 10 planets revolving around the sun. The sun is the largest by far. It is glorious! A majesty in our solar system. But is is not like the planets. They are as dead stones in comparison. In order we have Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter etc. Half way between Mars and Jupiter there is a huge asteroid belt. What caused this asteroid belt? The only conclusion that makes sense is that there was once a planet orbiting at this position and that for some reason it blew up leaving huge rocks caught in its orbit. If you can see that then look at the earth as a hollow globe with a star at the core. From outside the solar system it looks like the planets are eggs and the sun is like the mother and the star at the core the chick so to speak. No I did not do enough drugs in my teens to mess me up this much. Tell me, if the earth were hollow as I say and you looked at it from this perspective, would it not seem true? If! If! If!

So if this were true then the planets would all be hollow. Stay with me. That would mean that the asteroid belt once was a hollow planet and that when it blew up it released the star that was at it's core to dance before the sun like a child before it's mother, or a chick before the mother hen. Funny, when we read different versions of the bible we find in the first verse of Genesis that the Spirit of God was "brooding" over the face of the waters before he said "Let there be Light". Curious!

Believe it or not this is related to your questions. Bare with me.

So now look at the earth as if it were hollow. Between the inner and the outer crust there are huge deposits of oil, coal and natural gas. Very close to these there are huge caverns of flowing lava. Do you think that "never the twain shall meet"? Now look at the surface and how man in his great wisdom has build nuclear power plants all around the globe. Many in very poor repair and many very close to fault lines. Hmmm! Now look at the pipe lines and gas lines that wrap the earth is a web of highly explosive liquids. Are you able to see this?

Scientists have been warning us of a great cataclysm coming that is well over due.

Conclusion: If not for God no flesh would survive! This planet is primed and ready to explode leaving no survivors.

Now, with this understanding read Rev again. John wept because no-one was found worthy to open the seals. But wait, the lamb was found worthy and he opened the seals and voila! The recipe to save the planet. First we need an asteroid. But on its way in there is a seal that reveals a meteor shower that always precedes an asteroid. The sixth seal! Stars falling from heaven like figs from a fig tree blown in a mighty wind. Then the 7th seal can reveal the first 4 trumpets. Something looking like a mountain burning with fire lands in the sea. It is so big and hot that it burns up 1/3 of the trees and all of the grass. When it lands in the sea 1/3 of the ships are destroyed and 1/3 of the fish. This will make the fallout from Japan's meltdown look like a weekend fishing expedition. Did you notice it landed in the sea? The sea acts as a cushion so he can move the planet without destroying the planet. Isaiah 13:9-13 tell us he will move the earth out of it's place on the day of the Lord. Later in Isaiah he says it is swaying like a drunkard. Now look at Rev 8:12. 1/3 of the sun moon and stars are smitten, so that 1/3 of the day shone not and also 1/3 of the night. What does this mean?

If you hit the earth with an asteroid hard enough to move it and knock it spinning faster by 1/3 your days and nights will be shortened by 1/3 so that you see the sun moon and stars for 1/3 less time.

Now go with me into the hollow earth please. We are standing in a meadow looking at all of the birds and the mammoths etc. when all of a sudden an asteroid hits outside the hollow earth and we are flattened against the ground by the impact. But then we look up at the center sun that has given us so much pleasure and see it falling on us. It has lost its equilibrium and is being pulled down by the impact. The earth spins, at present, close to 1000 miles per hour. As this star falls inside it sweeps across the surface lighting the forests and grass into an inferno. This star is estimated to be about 500 miles in diameter. Once removed from the beasts kingdom the fires that spread around the inner world will soon consume it. Making the inside like a lake of fire as the gasses from the crust and the oils are squeezed out into this inner word. And the king who rules here will see that the star had the key and opened the tunnels leading out onto the outer surface. He calls his captains of fifty and rounds up his millions of locust and heads for the surface. It is his only chance of survival.

And the star had the key and opened the abyss and smoke like the smoke of a great furnace ascended from the pit and blocked out the sun. And the moon was turned to blood as the gasses from the smoke came between those looking and the moon. And there came from the smoke locust having hair of a woman, face of a man and teeth like lions teeth, just as Joel had described.

I could go on with this but I think you have enough to see for now. Not all scriptures that seem symbolic are symbolic. We just need a revelation that makes them clear.

Now your 4th question: I am certainly glad that you have not been fooled by the pre-tribulation nonsense. There is a big difference between a follower and a seeker. However, have you ever wondered why there is so much proof on the side of mid and post theology? Some scriptures point this way and others that way. It comes to the point that we have to make a choice on where the most evidence points. Of course that will leave you at post trib. I really hate using the word tribulation in conjunction with the 7 year covenant. It is not scriptural and very misleading.The great tribulation is Jacob's trouble and is in Judea and only lasts as long as it takes for the armies of the gentiles to take control of Jerusalem. Perhaps maybe 3 years. God knows, but not 7 years. Once this is done then they will cry "Finally, peace and safety" We know it starts when they set up the abomination and it ends just before the asteroid hits because it says so. We know that the king who ascends from the pit is only here 5 months til Jesus throws him in the lake of fire alive. Notice the word "alive". Now we know also that the last trumpet sounds following the asteroid because there is a great trumpet when Jesus gathers his elect from the 4 corners "after" the stars fall. If we look at the trumpets in Rev we see the 7th trumpet sound and the

 

[LambOfChrist]

kingdoms of the earth become the kingdoms of the lord and savior. So why people can't just accept the Word at his word is beyond me.

However, I could never understand how he keep us from the hour of temptation with this post 7 year understanding, though it is plain that this is true teaching. Only less than a year ago I was reading 2 Thess 2 again and I realized something. I had heard all of the teachings on He who lets and restrains being the Holy Ghost. This is true as Man chooses his ways but God directs his paths. He won't stop us but He will try to warn us of pending danger so we can avoid it. And it is though the prayers of the saints that the Holy Ghost can restrain the wicked from taking control. But this time I realized that in verse 1-3 we are told that the gathering of the Christians is AFTER the wicked one is revealed but in verses 7-8 the Holy Ghost is removed BEFORE the wicked one is revealed. And we know that He will never leave us nor forsake us so if he is taken out of the way we are going with Him. Wow!

This can only mean one thing. There are 2 raptures! Read it for yourself again. Unless you think "He who lets and restrains" is not the Holy Ghost

then there is no other way to understand this. So there must be another witness to this understanding.

Now look again at the child of Rev 12. Understand that in chapter 4 John is told he will be shown things that must come after this visitation. He received this in about 87 AD. Jesus was already risen over 50 years earlier. Now look at the woman, mother. She goes into the wilderness for 1260 days. Did Mary do that? Did the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns even exist 2000 years? No! But he rules with a rod of iron! According to Rev 2 anyone who overcomes Jezebel will be given a rod to rule just as Jesus received from his Father. Now notice that the word they, plural, is used when he said "And they over came by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony."

Conclusion: This child is a part of the body of Christ. Many have not received the Holy Ghost so how can they go with him. That doctrine you can prove for yourself. Others are living in fornication and practicing all kinds of abomination. They believe, but they are not going. Only the obedient will be caught up with "He who lets" They will be kept from the hour of temptation. The rest who are still walking in the flesh have not died to self yet. They will have to prove themselves worthy here during the final 3 1/2 years.

Study to show yourself approved rightly dividing the word of truth.