WILL THE BODY OF CHRIST COME BACK WITH CHRIST AT HIS COMING?

[Doug]

There are two comings. One for the body of Christ before the tribulation and one for Israel at the end of the tribulation.

Christ will come, I believe, before the tribulation for the body, the dead in Christ will rise first then we which are alive.

After the tribulation Christ will come to take the believing remnant of Israel into the kingdom on earth (Luke 12:32).

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The saints, the body of Christ, will be with Christ forever in the heavenly places. The body of Christ must appear before the judgment seat of Christ for rewards (2 Corinthians 5:10).

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The above verse speaks of the mystery resurrection of the body of Christ; Christ comes and brings the saints (believers) up to himself. This verse is not speaking of his coming for believing Israel. The body of Christ will NOT come back with Jesus at his coming for Israel and the establishment of his kingdom.

Look at Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Now look at Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Now look at Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Deuteronomy and Acts above are speaking of the saints as being the angels, who were mediators of the law; saints are angels as well as believers. Also the body of Christ had not yet been formed when Deuteronomy was written; the body was not revealed before Paul (Ephesians 3:5).

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew clearly states the angels will come with Christ to establish the earthly kingdom for believing Israel.

One last point, Jude in 1:14 above, could not have prophesized anything about the body of Christ because it was hid in God and only revealed first to Paul (Ephesians 3:9).

Angels are the ten thousands of saints that come with Christ.

 

[FaithWillDo]

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Dear Doug,
I want to focus on 1Thes 3:13 because it is vital for a correct understanding of the second coming of Christ.

First of all, the verse is not properly translated. It should read:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones (angels).

When Christ returns, He comes to the saints and He does so with His holy angels.

Christ's purpose for coming to an Elect person is to make their hearts blameless before the Law so that they are "ready" (faithful & blameless) for judgment to begin (Day of the Lord). Christ makes an Elect person blameless by giving them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism of the Spirit). After He does, the Day of the Lord will commence for that person to complete their conversion.

This second coming event is an Elect person's moment of salvation:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The verses below are referring to the same salvation event:

1Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (by the Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Thes 1:17 And to you who are troubled rest with us, (converted, entered into the rest of Christ) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 18 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Christ is only revealed to a person after their spiritual blindness is healed. It is healed when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Spirit of Truth). This truth is taught in Mark 8:15-25 and also by Paul's conversion when the scales fell from Paul's eyes. In fact, the book of Revelation is about the unveiling of Christ within His Elect. And because it happens before they die, the sayings of the prophecy will shortly come to pass for each of them.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Consider this:

If a person is saved before they die, are they not then "blameless" before the Law? According to Paul they are.

So the real question is: When is an Elect person saved?

Does it happen before they physically die or is it only at the literal end of this age?

Consider what Peter said when He was converted:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter is describing the second coming of the Lord when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After Christ does, the sun and the moon are darkened for the person because the newly born child of God will not receive their truth (light) from the natural sun (Satan) or the natural moon (bondwoman/Old Covenant) any longer. They will now receive their truth from the Sun of Righteousness which has just risen within them. Peter ends his statement by saying that this is when a person is saved.

In the story of the adulterous woman (John 8:3-10), Christ is teaching when a person is made blameless before the Law. Christ's writing in the earth symbolizes when He writes the law of the Spirit within the heart of the woman. The first time He writes in the earth represents the Early Rain of the Spirit. After He does though, the Pharisees still accuse the woman and do not drop their stones (symbol for the Law). But after Christ writes in the earth a second time (the Latter Rain), the woman is made blameless before the Law. The Pharisees then drop their stones and leave.

The second coming of Christ is a reoccurring event when He brings salvation to each of His Elect. It happens to each of the Elect before they die. And because each person's life is like a vapor that vanishes quickly (James 4:14), Christ said this about His second coming:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

An Elect person does not have to wait to the literal end of the ages to receive their salvation. The "end of the ages" is a symbol for when a person is converted & saved. For the Elect, the end of the ages will come upon each of them before they die.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the end of the ages are come.

None of what is commonly taught about the end-times (end of the ages) and the second coming of Christ is true.

Joe

 

[Doug]

Dear Doug,
I want to focus on 1Thes 3:13 because it is vital for a correct understanding of the second coming of Christ.

First of all, the verse is not properly translated. It should read:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones (angels).

When Christ returns, He comes to the saints and He does so with His holy angels.

Christ's purpose for coming to an Elect person is to make their hearts blameless before the Law so that they are "ready" (faithful & blameless) for judgment to begin (Day of the Lord). Christ makes an Elect person blameless by giving them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism of the Spirit). After He does, the Day of the Lord will commence for that person to complete their conversion.

This second coming event is an Elect person's moment of salvation:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The verses below are referring to the same salvation event:

1Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (by the Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Thes 1:17 And to you who are troubled rest with us, (converted, entered into the rest of Christ) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 18 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Christ is only revealed to a person after their spiritual blindness is healed. It is healed when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Spirit of Truth). This truth is taught in Mark 8:15-25 and also by Paul's conversion when the scales fell from Paul's eyes. In fact, the book of Revelation is about the unveiling of Christ within His Elect. And because it happens before they die, the sayings of the prophecy will shortly come to pass for each of them.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Consider this:

If a person is saved before they die, are they not then "blameless" before the Law? According to Paul they are.

So the real question is: When is an Elect person saved?

Does it happen before they physically die or is it only at the literal end of this age?

Consider what Peter said when He was converted:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter is describing the second coming of the Lord when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After Christ does, the sun and the moon are darkened for the person because the newly born child of God will not receive their truth (light) from the natural sun (Satan) or the natural moon (bondwoman/Old Covenant) any longer. They will now receive their truth from the Sun of Righteousness which has just risen within them. Peter ends his statement by saying that this is when a person is saved.

In the story of the adulterous woman (John 8:3-10), Christ is teaching when a person is made blameless before the Law. Christ's writing in the earth symbolizes when He writes the law of the Spirit within the heart of the woman. The first time He writes in the earth represents the Early Rain of the Spirit. After He does though, the Pharisees still accuse the woman and do not drop their stones (symbol for the Law). But after Christ writes in the earth a second time (the Latter Rain), the woman is made blameless before the Law. The Pharisees then drop their stones and leave.

The second coming of Christ is a reoccurring event when He brings salvation to each of His Elect. It happens to each of the Elect before they die. And because each person's life is like a vapor that vanishes quickly (James 4:14), Christ said this about His second coming:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

An Elect person does not have to wait to the literal end of the ages to receive their salvation. The "end of the ages" is a symbol for when a person is converted & saved. For the Elect, the end of the ages will come upon each of them before they die.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the end of the ages are come.

None of what is commonly taught about the end-times (end of the ages) and the second coming of Christ is true.

Joe

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones (angels).

When Christ returns, He comes to the saints and He does so with His holy angels.

saints are holy as well so you cant base which is which on this verse alone

The second coming of Christ is a reoccurring event when He brings salvation to each of His Elect. It happens to each of the Elect before they die. And because each person's life is like a vapor that vanishes quickly (James 4:14)

Are you saying Christ is not coming back at the end of the tribulation to save Israel?

 

[FaithWillDo]

saints are holy as well so you cant base which is which on this verse alone

Are you saying Christ is not coming back at the end of the tribulation to save Israel?

Dear Doug,
You said:
saints are holy as well so you cant base which is which on this verse alone

You are exactly right. That is why we must look to other scripture to find out who comes back with Christ when He brings the Latter Rain and salvation.

2Thes 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, (converted, entered into the rest of Christ) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 18 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Here is the verse again:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones (angels).

Paul is writing to unconverted Thessalonian believers (babes). They have received the Early Rain of the Spirit and are waiting for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain. When they receive the Latter Rain, they will be made blameless when they are judged during the Day of the Lord. This happened to the Thessalonian Elect before any of them physically died which would have been somewhere around 55 - 70 A.D.

A second reason for why the holy ones are angels is because there are no Elect available to come with Christ when He comes to the other Elect believers. The Elect are not available because the bodily resurrection from the grave does not occur until the end of this age. So when Christ comes a second time to the Thessalonian Elect, all the other Elect are either still in the flesh or they are in the grave waiting for the resurrection. The only holy ones available to come with Christ are the holy angels.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

You said:
Are you saying Christ is not coming back at the end of the tribulation to save Israel?

As I stated in my first post, NONE of what is commonly taught about end-time prophecy is true.

The end of the ages is a spiritual symbol which represents the conversion of the Elect. It is not talking about literal time. When the end of the ages comes upon an Elect person, they will be converted and made blameless. Immediately after they are made blameless, the Day of the Lord will commence and remove all the spiritual things (chaff) within them that has made them carnally minded and sinful. After this judgment is complete, the believer will be converted.

Also, there is no time of tribulation that happens at the literal end of this age. The great tribulation is referring to when an Elect believer experiences a time of being indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ, causing them to become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). This is when they become a man of sin, a seven headed beast with 10 horns & crowns, a false prophet and a minister of Satan.

All the Elect since Paul's "departing" will experience a time of great tribulation right before Christ returns to convert them. This is one of the signs of the times.

Consider this verse:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom (Satan's false gospel) shall be preached in all the world (completely within the believer) for a witness unto all nations (all the beliefs of the believer); and then shall the end come (time of conversion).

After an Elect believer has received the Latter Rain and has their spiritual blindness healed, they will see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (God's Temple) when the spirit of anti-Christ indwelt them.

Mat 24:15 When ye (not "if") therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (because judgment is about to fall).

In verse 16, Christ is referring to the "type" taught by Lot fleeing Sodom and Gomorrah.

The one who flees to the mountains (Lot) represents the newly born child of God who is not judged. Only the man of sin & Great Harlot are judged. Sodom (also called the Great Harlot) represents the marred spirit of the believer which has a carnal and religious spiritual nature. Gomorrah represents the man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ. Both are destroyed during judgment.

As for the physical Nation of Israel, they will die in their sins during this present age and will be resurrected to judgment in the final age. But before any of them perish from their time of judgment (symbolized by the Lake of Fire), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need to be saved (Mat 23:23). This will happen to them AFTER the last of the unbelieving Gentiles are saved:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The only event that happens at the literal end of this age is the bodily resurrection from the grave. It is shown here:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God (the sheep/Elect-only the Elect can "stand" before God); and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of Life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works (works of faith). 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead (the goats, all unsaved mankind) which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works (works of their hands).

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Joe

 

[Doug]

Dear Doug,
You said:
saints are holy as well so you cant base which is which on this verse alone

You are exactly right. That is why we must look to other scripture to find out who comes back with Christ when He brings the Latter Rain and salvation.

2Thes 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, (converted, entered into the rest of Christ) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 18 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Here is the verse again:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones (angels).

Paul is writing to unconverted Thessalonian believers (babes). They have received the Early Rain of the Spirit and are waiting for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain. When they receive the Latter Rain, they will be made blameless when they are judged during the Day of the Lord. This happened to the Thessalonian Elect before any of them physically died which would have been somewhere around 55 - 70 A.D.

A second reason for why the holy ones are angels is because there are no Elect available to come with Christ when He comes to the other Elect believers. The Elect are not available because the bodily resurrection from the grave does not occur until the end of this age. So when Christ comes a second time to the Thessalonian Elect, all the other Elect are either still in the flesh or they are in the grave waiting for the resurrection. The only holy ones available to come with Christ are the holy angels.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

You said:
Are you saying Christ is not coming back at the end of the tribulation to save Israel?

As I stated in my first post, NONE of what is commonly taught about end-time prophecy is true.

The end of the ages is a spiritual symbol which represents the conversion of the Elect. It is not talking about literal time. When the end of the ages comes upon an Elect person, they will be converted and made blameless. Immediately after they are made blameless, the Day of the Lord will commence and remove all the spiritual things (chaff) within them that has made them carnally minded and sinful. After this judgment is complete, the believer will be converted.

Also, there is no time of tribulation that happens at the literal end of this age. The great tribulation is referring to when an Elect believer experiences a time of being indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ, causing them to become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). This is when they become a man of sin, a seven headed beast with 10 horns & crowns, a false prophet and a minister of Satan.

All the Elect since Paul's "departing" will experience a time of great tribulation right before Christ returns to convert them. This is one of the signs of the times.

Consider this verse:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom (Satan's false gospel) shall be preached in all the world (completely within the believer) for a witness unto all nations (all the beliefs of the believer); and then shall the end come (time of conversion).

After an Elect believer has received the Latter Rain and has their spiritual blindness healed, they will see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (God's Temple) when the spirit of anti-Christ indwelt them.

Mat 24:15 When ye (not "if") therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (because judgment is about to fall).

In verse 16, Christ is referring to the "type" taught by Lot fleeing Sodom and Gomorrah.

The one who flees to the mountains (Lot) represents the newly born child of God who is not judged. Only the man of sin & Great Harlot are judged. Sodom (also called the Great Harlot) represents the marred spirit of the believer which has a carnal and religious spiritual nature. Gomorrah represents the man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ. Both are destroyed during judgment.

As for the physical Nation of Israel, they will die in their sins during this present age and will be resurrected to judgment in the final age. But before any of them perish from their time of judgment (symbolized by the Lake of Fire), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need to be saved (Mat 23:23). This will happen to them AFTER the last of the unbelieving Gentiles are saved:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the D

Paul is writing to unconverted Thessalonian believers (babes). They have received the Early Rain of the Spirit and are waiting for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain. When they receive the Latter Rain, they will be made blameless when they are judged during the Day of the Lord. This happened to the Thessalonian Elect before any of them physically died which would have been somewhere around 55 - 70 A.D.

I am having a hard time following your doctrine so correct me if I am wrong
I take it you are saying we get the Spirit in installments per se whereas the Bible says we receive it all and are sealed ...........
[2Co 1:22 KJV] 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
[Eph 1:13 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

A second reason for why the holy ones are angels is because there are no Elect available to come with Christ when He comes to the other Elect believers. The Elect are not available because the bodily resurrection from the grave does not occur until the end of this age. So when Christ comes a second time to the Thessalonian Elect, all the other Elect are either still in the flesh or they are in the grave waiting for the resurrection. The only holy ones available to come with Christ are the holy angels.

But the Bible says we go to Christ upon death .........[2Co 5:8 KJV] 8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The resurrection of the body for the body of Christ occurs before the end of the age............. [1Th 4:16-17 KJV] 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The end of the ages is a spiritual symbol which represents the conversion of the Elect. It is not talking about literal time. When the end of the ages comes upon an Elect person, they will be converted and made blameless. Immediately after they are made blameless.

I take the Bible literally and believe the coming of the Lord

 

[FaithWillDo]

I am having a hard time following your doctrine so correct me if I am wrong

Dear Doug,
You said:
I take it you are saying we get the Spirit in installments per se whereas the Bible says we receive it all and are sealed ...........

Yes, the Spirit is given in TWO installments. Even the Apostles and Paul are shown to have received the Spirit in TWO installments.

Here is Eph 1:13 again with my comments inserted:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted (because of receiving the Early Rain), after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom ALSO AFTER that ye believed (after a time of waiting), ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (by the Latter Rain),

When the Apostles called Jesus "Lord", it was before they received the Latter Rain on the Day of Pentecost. How was that possible in light of what Paul says below?

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles called Jesus "Lord" because they were given the Holy Spirit when they walked with Christ in the flesh (Mat 16:17). However, it was only the small measure of the Spirit (Early Rain) and not the baptism that they received on the Day of Pentecost.

Also, Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and that is when he first called Jesus "Lord".

Acts 9:6 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

After Paul's time of waiting, he received the Latter Rain. That is when Paul's spiritual blindness was healed:

Acts 9:17 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

After a person is given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will have a measure of faith and will be "called to be a saint". If they are chosen, Christ will come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain.

Mat 22:14 For many are called (Early Rain), but few are chosen (both the Early & Latter Rain).

The Early Rain is a small measure of the Spirit but it will give the person a "measure of faith" and certain spiritual gifts. Consider what Paul said to the Corinthian church (babes) who had only received the Early Rain:

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS ...

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (by the Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

James says it takes both the Early and Latter Rain before an Elect person is ready to be harvested.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James is writing to unconverted babes who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. James tells them to be patient because the "coming of the Lord draweth nigh". James correctly understood the second coming of Christ and that it was not a far off event in the life of an Elect person.

Consider these scriptures:

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD (after being given the Early Rain): his going forth is prepared as the morning (when the Sun rises/Latter Rain/conversion); and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

The Latter Rain comes to an Elect believer after a time of waiting (as James & Paul both said).

Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the Latter Rain.

You said:
But the Bible says we go to Christ upon death...

Scripture never says that we go to Christ upon death. When a person dies, their spirit returns to God and their body returns to dust. They remain in a state of death (no consciousness) until the resurrection from the grave. Upon a person's resurrection, their consciousness returns. An Elect person will then be with Christ, having no knowledge of any time passing.

Read 1Thes 4:13-18 again. Paul was asked by the Thessalonians about their loved ones who had died in Christ. Paul answered them by telling them about the resurrection from the grave. If a person immediately goes to Christ upon their death, Paul would have told them so here - but He doesn't. Paul tells them about the coming of the resurrection.

You said:
I take the Bible literally and believe the coming of the Lord.

Babes in Christ are spiritually blind and understand scripture in a carnal (literal) way. But Christ's words are "spirit" (John 6:63) and they carry meanings that are different than how mankind understands them:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

Paul also said this:

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Paul teaches the truth of Christ in a mystery. He does it by using spirit words which have spiritual meanings.

When Christ came in the flesh, He spoke Hebrew just like the other Jews did. But His Hebrew was made up of spirit words which made His language "another language". I call this language Christ's spiritual language.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they (babes who draw milk) might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The spiritual language of Christ requires a person to have the Spirit of Truth (Latter Rain) for understanding to take place. When a person has the Spirit of Truth, it will guide them in their understanding of Christ's spiritual language. Without the Spirit of Truth, a babe will be spiritually blind which will cause them to "fall backward, and be broken, and snared and taken" by Satan. The spiritual blindness of babes is what gives Satan the ability to deceive them and to make them "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

Joe

 

[Doug]

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted (because of receiving the Early Rain), after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom ALSO AFTER that ye believed (after a time of waiting), ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (by the Latter Rain),

where are you getting this concept of early and latter rain being the Spirit and not just an illustration or actual blessing of rain

in the verse "also after" does not warrant saying there is a waiting time

 

[Doug]

When the Apostles called Jesus "Lord", it was before they received the Latter Rain on the Day of Pentecost. How was that possible in light of what Paul says below?

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

When the Apostles called Jesus "Lord", it was before they received the Latter Rain on the Day of Pentecost. How was that possible in light of what Paul says below?

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

This verse has to be qualified by noting that this was a time of church establishment which was the purpose of the gifts and is not the case for us

 

[FaithWillDo]

where are you getting this concept of early and latter rain being the Spirit and not just an illustration

in the verse "also after" does not warrant saying there is a waiting time

Dear Doug,
The Early and Latter Rain concept is taught in scripture but the apostate churches of this world are blind to it. The concept is at the core of the "great mystery of Christ and His church" (Eph 5:32). I had many more scriptures on the Early and Latter Rain in my earlier post but I had to remove them to make the post under the 10,000 word limit.

Let's look at another analogy that uses the concept to teach the pathway to salvation. This analogy is the marriage analogy.

When an unbeliever is given the small amount of the Spirit, they will have a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. At this point, the person becomes a "chaste virgin" who is espoused to Christ. After the engagement occurs, the Bridegroom (Christ) goes away to prepare a place for His prospective bride with the promise to return later. There is no set amount of time that the virgin must wait - but she must remain faithful while she waits. If the Bridegroom returns and finds His virgin to have been unfaithful to him while he was away, the marriage will not take place.

After Paul's departing, the spirit of anti-Christ came into the church and devoured all the sheep (babes, Early Rain only). Nothing has changed in the church since that time. All new believers will spiritually fornicate with Satan while they wait for Christ to return for the marriage.

Spiritual fornication is when a virgin accepts Satan's crooked way of trying to make oneself righteous before God. Adam and Eve did this when they covered themselves with figs leaves. The babes in the church do this when they mix their own works with faith.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

The Old Wine represents the Old Covenant which is based on the works of man. The New Wine represents the New Covenant which is based solely on the works of Christ. When a babe mixes the two together, they have committed spiritual fornication with Satan. This sin is the one and only sin that leads to death. When a babe becomes unfaithful, they cannot be renewed to Christ by repentance. The only way they can be renewed is for Christ to "come again" and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the baptism of the Spirit, the virgin will be made "ready". And since the baptism will heal the babe's spiritual blindness, Christ will then appear to them. When He does, He will find them ready and the marriage will take place.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready (faithful, repented from works).

The marriage analogy is used in the parable of the Ten Virgins. The extra flask of oil that the wise virgins have represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Since the foolish virgins do not have the extra oil, they are forced to turn back. Also, notice that all ten virgins sleep at night while they wait for the Bridegroom to return. In Christ's spiritual language, "sleep" represents that they have all spiritually died and "night" represents their spiritual blindness. Then, at the deepest part of their blindness (midnight), the call goes out that the Bridegroom is returning. Since the wise virgins have the extra oil (Latter Rain), they use it and go out to meet the Bridegroom.

Here are a few more verses on the Early & Latter Rain and the time of waiting that happens in between them.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the Early Rain in just measure (small amount), and he causes to come down for you the Rain, the Early Rain and the Latter Rain, in the first month.

Psa 72:6 He shall come down like RAIN (Latter Rain) upon the mown grass (fallen away babe): as showers (Latter Rain) that water the earth.

Jer 14:22 Are there any among the vanities of the Gentiles that can cause rain? or can the heavens give showers? art not thou he, O LORD our God? therefore we will wait upon thee: for thou hast made all these things.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withheld (time of Elijah's drought), and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead (apostate), thou refusedst to be ashamed.

Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the Latter Rain.

Isa 40:29 He gives power to the weak (Early Rain), and to those who have no might, He increases strength. 30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall (fall away/spiritually die), 31 But those who wait on the LORD shall renew their strength (by the Latter Rain); they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint.

Isa 30:18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Jer 5:24 They do not say in their heart, “Let us now fear the LORD our God, Who gives rain, both the early and the latter, in its season. He reserves for us the appointed weeks of the harvest.” (day of salvation)

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

This verse has to be qualified by noting that this was a time of church establishment which was the purpose of the gifts and is not the case for us

Dear Doug,
There is no scripture that supports your statement. The reason the churches of today do not have the gifts is because they are apostate.

Also, for a person to have faith in Christ, Christ MUST give the person the Early Rain of the Spirit (the small amount). Without the Spirit, the gospel will be foolishness to them.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Christ is the one who decides to whom He will give the Early Rain. After He gives them this free gift, they will 100% of the time make a confession of faith after they are presented the gospel. The person has no works that they can claim as their own.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

If a person never makes a confession of faith during their lifetime, it is only because Christ did not give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. But Christ does give the Early Rain to "many".

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The Early Rain is what causes a person to start following Christ and is when they are "called to be a saint". But only a "few" of the individuals who are called to be a saint will actually become a saint. They become a saint after they are given the Latter Rain, followed by judgment. This is when a person is converted and when the marriage of the Lamb takes place.

John the Baptist mentions conversion in the verse below:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Latter Rain and the baptism of Fire is the judgment of the Day of the Lord.

Christ is the Savior of mankind. He does everything that is necessary to save a person. A person has no works that are necessary to add to His works. Christ works are spiritual works and they happen "within" a person. When He does His works, He causes the person to "will and do of His good pleasure":

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is not within mankind to direct their own steps:

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

When Christ is ready to save a person, He will save them. And since Christ came to save the world (1John 4:14), He will not rest until all mankind has been saved. The Elect are being saved in this present age. They are the early harvest of mankind (First Fruits). The main of harvest of mankind will occur at the end of the final age. After Christ has saved the last person, this scripture below will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

We all must wait on the Lord for our salvation.

James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Joe

 

[Doug]

The concept is at the core of the "great mystery of Christ and His church" (Eph 5:32).

The mystery is hidden in God but has been revealed to Paul and can be read in his epistles........I dont think there is some secret spiritual meanings in scripture

 

[Doug]

There is no scripture that supports your statement. The reason the churches of today do not have the gifts is because they are apostate.

[1Co 14:4 KJV] 4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Gifts were to edify the growing church

 

[FaithWillDo]

The mystery is hidden in God but has been revealed to Paul and can be read in his epistles........I dont think there is some secret spiritual meanings in scripture

Dear Doug,

Yes, the mystery of God was revealed to Paul but Paul also says that he teaches it in a "mystery". He does so by teaching it using Christ's spiritual language.

I know that the "many" teach that truth is clearly presented in scripture but the scriptures that I posted teach differently. You are just not hearing them.

I will give you an easy example of Christ's spiritual language using the verse below:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the spirit word SWORD to teach His spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. As Paul said to do, we must compare spiritual words with spiritual words (1Cor 2:13).

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From the verses presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.

Christ’s hidden spiritual message He is teaching in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who have been given the Early Rain of the Spirit and have been “called to be a saint”), will later perish by the Sword (death of the child of the devil). This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person a second time and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain), followed by the Baptism of Fire (judgment):

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

This same conversion event presented above is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of FIRE, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the HOLY SPIRIT, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

In the spiritual language of Christ, the Apostles took up the Sword and then died by the SWORD. But because the Apostles were “born again” (Latter Rain) as a child of God prior to being slain by the Sword, their lives continued on as a new creation of God. It is in this way that Christ will convert all mankind into His children.

In light of what I presented above, do you understand what this verse below is teaching?

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind): and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Like Mat 26:52, the verse above is teaching about the baptism of Fire which occurs during the conversion event. And like all of Christ’s New Covenant teachings, its message is hidden in the spiritual language of Christ. The “many” who are “slain of the Lord” is a prophecy that is teaching that all mankind will be converted & saved. This death will only occur after each individual has been given their new birth as a child of God. To know that this is the case, we must look to other scripture (Isa 28:9-12, “here a little and there a little” applies).

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

[1Co 14:4 KJV] 4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Gifts were to edify the growing church

Dear Doug,
The true church is made up of individuals who are in need of maturing into a perfect man. Their individual growth is the purpose for the gifts.

1Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a babe, I spoke as a babe, I understood as a babe, I thought as a babe: but when I became a man, I put away things of babes.

Just before my wife & I were converted in 2005, my wife was given the gift of prophecy. We had both been in the apostate church for over 20 years but she was not given that gift during those years because Christ was not ready for her to have it. But when her time for conversion came, she begin prophesying in the Spirit. In 2008, Christ removed her gift because it was no longer necessary. Our conversion testimony is posted on our website. There is a link to it below my member name if you care to read it.

Joe

 

[Doug]

Christ’s hidden spiritual message He is teaching in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who have been given the Early Rain of the Spirit and have been “called to be a saint”), will later perish by the Sword (death of the child of the devil). This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person a second time and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain), followed by the Baptism of Fire (judgment):

You cited scripture about the sword being the word which is ok but to give your above interpretation is not backed by other scripture

 

[FaithWillDo]

You cited scripture about the sword being the word which is ok but to give your above interpretation is not backed by other scripture

Dear Doug,
I did support it with scripture by showing how Christ uses His Sword to convert a person.

Look at this verse:

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast (Man of Sin/apostate babe).

When Christ gives an unbeliever the Early Rain, he is striking a blow to their head (Satan) with the Word of God (Sword). But when the babe is indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ, the deadly head wound by His Sword is healed so that the person not only remains unconverted, but they become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

It sounds like you don't understand the spiritual process of conversion. Conversion requires the death of the child of the Devil. To slay the child of the Devil, Christ uses His Sword; the Word of God.

Joe

 

[Doug]

Dear Doug,
I did support it with scripture by showing how Christ uses His Sword to convert a person.

Look at this verse:

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast (Man of Sin/apostate babe).

When Christ gives an unbeliever the Early Rain, he is striking a blow to their head (Satan) with the Word of God (Sword). But when the babe is indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ, the deadly head wound by His Sword is healed so that the person not only remains unconverted, but they become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

It sounds like you don't understand the spiritual process of conversion. Conversion requires the death of the child of the Devil. To slay the child of the Devil, Christ uses His Sword; the Word of God.

Joe

You are right in saying I dont understand......thanks for the respectful exchange

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There are two comings. One for the body of Christ before the tribulation and one for Israel at the end of the tribulation.

Christ will come, I believe, before the tribulation for the body, the dead in Christ will rise first then we which are alive.

After the tribulation Christ will come to take the believing remnant of Israel into the kingdom on earth (Luke 12:32).

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The saints, the body of Christ, will be with Christ forever in the heavenly places. The body of Christ must appear before the judgment seat of Christ for rewards (2 Corinthians 5:10).

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The above verse speaks of the mystery resurrection of the body of Christ; Christ comes and brings the saints (believers) up to himself. This verse is not speaking of his coming for believing Israel. The body of Christ will NOT come back with Jesus at his coming for Israel and the establishment of his kingdom.

Look at Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Now look at Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Now look at Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Deuteronomy and Acts above are speaking of the saints as being the angels, who were mediators of the law; saints are angels as well as believers. Also the body of Christ had not yet been formed when Deuteronomy was written; the body was not revealed before Paul (Ephesians 3:5).

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew clearly states the angels will come with Christ to establish the earthly kingdom for believing Israel.

One last point, Jude in 1:14 above, could not have prophesized anything about the body of Christ because it was hid in God and only revealed first to Paul (Ephesians 3:9).

Angels are the ten thousands of saints that come with Christ.

Sorry Doug but you have erred.

there is only one coming of Jesus- that is at His physical return at teh end of the 70th week of Daniel.

The rapture is not a coming of Jesus. He doesn't return to earth, He simply descends either into the second or first heaven and snatches the church up.

While the church may come back with Jesus at His physical return9 so we can celebrate the wedding feast with our Groom, we are not depicted as angels.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You are right in saying I dont understand......thanks for the respectful exchange

Dear Doug,
I want to leave you with one last comment.

Understanding is only given by Christ. That is why Christ says to ask Him for understanding. If you read my conversion testimony, you would see that I asked for understanding just before Christ poured out the Latter Rain upon me.

Jer 33:3 ‘CALL TO ME, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I WILL CALL UNTO THE LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Zec 10:1 ASK YE OF THE LORD rain in the time of the Latter Rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.

If you look at Paul's conversion pattern (1Tim 1:16), he is shown to be praying just before he received the Latter Rain. And from other scripture, we can know that Paul must have been praying for understanding of all that had befallen him the last three days.

Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth.

Joe