WILL THE BODY OF CHRIST COME BACK WITH CHRIST AT HIS COMING?

[Doug]

There are two comings. One for the body of Christ before the tribulation and one for Israel at the end of the tribulation.

Christ will come, I believe, before the tribulation for the body, the dead in Christ will rise first then we which are alive.

After the tribulation Christ will come to take the believing remnant of Israel into the kingdom on earth (Luke 12:32).

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The saints, the body of Christ, will be with Christ forever in the heavenly places. The body of Christ must appear before the judgment seat of Christ for rewards (2 Corinthians 5:10).

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The above verse speaks of the mystery resurrection of the body of Christ; Christ comes and brings the saints (believers) up to himself. This verse is not speaking of his coming for believing Israel. The body of Christ will NOT come back with Jesus at his coming for Israel and the establishment of his kingdom.

Look at Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Now look at Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Now look at Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Deuteronomy and Acts above are speaking of the saints as being the angels, who were mediators of the law; saints are angels as well as believers. Also the body of Christ had not yet been formed when Deuteronomy was written; the body was not revealed before Paul (Ephesians 3:5).

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew clearly states the angels will come with Christ to establish the earthly kingdom for believing Israel.

One last point, Jude in 1:14 above, could not have prophesized anything about the body of Christ because it was hid in God and only revealed first to Paul (Ephesians 3:9).

Angels are the ten thousands of saints that come with Christ.

 

[FaithWillDo]

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Dear Doug,
I want to focus on 1Thes 3:13 because it is vital for a correct understanding of the second coming of Christ.

First of all, the verse is not properly translated. It should read:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones (angels).

When Christ returns, He comes to the saints and He does so with His holy angels.

Christ's purpose for coming to an Elect person is to make their hearts blameless before the Law so that they are "ready" (faithful & blameless) for judgment to begin (Day of the Lord). Christ makes an Elect person blameless by giving them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism of the Spirit). After He does, the Day of the Lord will commence for that person to complete their conversion.

This second coming event is an Elect person's moment of salvation:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The verses below are referring to the same salvation event:

1Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (by the Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Thes 1:17 And to you who are troubled rest with us, (converted, entered into the rest of Christ) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 18 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Christ is only revealed to a person after their spiritual blindness is healed. It is healed when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Spirit of Truth). This truth is taught in Mark 8:15-25 and also by Paul's conversion when the scales fell from Paul's eyes. In fact, the book of Revelation is about the unveiling of Christ within His Elect. And because it happens before they die, the sayings of the prophecy will shortly come to pass for each of them.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Consider this:

If a person is saved before they die, are they not then "blameless" before the Law? According to Paul they are.

So the real question is: When is an Elect person saved?

Does it happen before they physically die or is it only at the literal end of this age?

Consider what Peter said when He was converted:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter is describing the second coming of the Lord when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After Christ does, the sun and the moon are darkened for the person because the newly born child of God will not receive their truth (light) from the natural sun (Satan) or the natural moon (bondwoman/Old Covenant) any longer. They will now receive their truth from the Sun of Righteousness which has just risen within them. Peter ends his statement by saying that this is when a person is saved.

In the story of the adulterous woman (John 8:3-10), Christ is teaching when a person is made blameless before the Law. Christ's writing in the earth symbolizes when He writes the law of the Spirit within the heart of the woman. The first time He writes in the earth represents the Early Rain of the Spirit. After He does though, the Pharisees still accuse the woman and do not drop their stones (symbol for the Law). But after Christ writes in the earth a second time (the Latter Rain), the woman is made blameless before the Law. The Pharisees then drop their stones and leave.

The second coming of Christ is a reoccurring event when He brings salvation to each of His Elect. It happens to each of the Elect before they die. And because each person's life is like a vapor that vanishes quickly (James 4:14), Christ said this about His second coming:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

An Elect person does not have to wait to the literal end of the ages to receive their salvation. The "end of the ages" is a symbol for when a person is converted & saved. For the Elect, the end of the ages will come upon each of them before they die.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the end of the ages are come.

None of what is commonly taught about the end-times (end of the ages) and the second coming of Christ is true.

Joe

 

[Doug]

Dear Doug,
I want to focus on 1Thes 3:13 because it is vital for a correct understanding of the second coming of Christ.

First of all, the verse is not properly translated. It should read:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones (angels).

When Christ returns, He comes to the saints and He does so with His holy angels.

Christ's purpose for coming to an Elect person is to make their hearts blameless before the Law so that they are "ready" (faithful & blameless) for judgment to begin (Day of the Lord). Christ makes an Elect person blameless by giving them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism of the Spirit). After He does, the Day of the Lord will commence for that person to complete their conversion.

This second coming event is an Elect person's moment of salvation:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The verses below are referring to the same salvation event:

1Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (by the Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Thes 1:17 And to you who are troubled rest with us, (converted, entered into the rest of Christ) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 18 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Christ is only revealed to a person after their spiritual blindness is healed. It is healed when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Spirit of Truth). This truth is taught in Mark 8:15-25 and also by Paul's conversion when the scales fell from Paul's eyes. In fact, the book of Revelation is about the unveiling of Christ within His Elect. And because it happens before they die, the sayings of the prophecy will shortly come to pass for each of them.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Consider this:

If a person is saved before they die, are they not then "blameless" before the Law? According to Paul they are.

So the real question is: When is an Elect person saved?

Does it happen before they physically die or is it only at the literal end of this age?

Consider what Peter said when He was converted:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter is describing the second coming of the Lord when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After Christ does, the sun and the moon are darkened for the person because the newly born child of God will not receive their truth (light) from the natural sun (Satan) or the natural moon (bondwoman/Old Covenant) any longer. They will now receive their truth from the Sun of Righteousness which has just risen within them. Peter ends his statement by saying that this is when a person is saved.

In the story of the adulterous woman (John 8:3-10), Christ is teaching when a person is made blameless before the Law. Christ's writing in the earth symbolizes when He writes the law of the Spirit within the heart of the woman. The first time He writes in the earth represents the Early Rain of the Spirit. After He does though, the Pharisees still accuse the woman and do not drop their stones (symbol for the Law). But after Christ writes in the earth a second time (the Latter Rain), the woman is made blameless before the Law. The Pharisees then drop their stones and leave.

The second coming of Christ is a reoccurring event when He brings salvation to each of His Elect. It happens to each of the Elect before they die. And because each person's life is like a vapor that vanishes quickly (James 4:14), Christ said this about His second coming:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

An Elect person does not have to wait to the literal end of the ages to receive their salvation. The "end of the ages" is a symbol for when a person is converted & saved. For the Elect, the end of the ages will come upon each of them before they die.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the end of the ages are come.

None of what is commonly taught about the end-times (end of the ages) and the second coming of Christ is true.

Joe

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones (angels).

When Christ returns, He comes to the saints and He does so with His holy angels.

saints are holy as well so you cant base which is which on this verse alone

The second coming of Christ is a reoccurring event when He brings salvation to each of His Elect. It happens to each of the Elect before they die. And because each person's life is like a vapor that vanishes quickly (James 4:14)

Are you saying Christ is not coming back at the end of the tribulation to save Israel?

 

[FaithWillDo]

saints are holy as well so you cant base which is which on this verse alone

Are you saying Christ is not coming back at the end of the tribulation to save Israel?

Dear Doug,
You said:
saints are holy as well so you cant base which is which on this verse alone

You are exactly right. That is why we must look to other scripture to find out who comes back with Christ when He brings the Latter Rain and salvation.

2Thes 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, (converted, entered into the rest of Christ) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 18 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Here is the verse again:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones (angels).

Paul is writing to unconverted Thessalonian believers (babes). They have received the Early Rain of the Spirit and are waiting for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain. When they receive the Latter Rain, they will be made blameless when they are judged during the Day of the Lord. This happened to the Thessalonian Elect before any of them physically died which would have been somewhere around 55 - 70 A.D.

A second reason for why the holy ones are angels is because there are no Elect available to come with Christ when He comes to the other Elect believers. The Elect are not available because the bodily resurrection from the grave does not occur until the end of this age. So when Christ comes a second time to the Thessalonian Elect, all the other Elect are either still in the flesh or they are in the grave waiting for the resurrection. The only holy ones available to come with Christ are the holy angels.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

You said:
Are you saying Christ is not coming back at the end of the tribulation to save Israel?

As I stated in my first post, NONE of what is commonly taught about end-time prophecy is true.

The end of the ages is a spiritual symbol which represents the conversion of the Elect. It is not talking about literal time. When the end of the ages comes upon an Elect person, they will be converted and made blameless. Immediately after they are made blameless, the Day of the Lord will commence and remove all the spiritual things (chaff) within them that has made them carnally minded and sinful. After this judgment is complete, the believer will be converted.

Also, there is no time of tribulation that happens at the literal end of this age. The great tribulation is referring to when an Elect believer experiences a time of being indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ, causing them to become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). This is when they become a man of sin, a seven headed beast with 10 horns & crowns, a false prophet and a minister of Satan.

All the Elect since Paul's "departing" will experience a time of great tribulation right before Christ returns to convert them. This is one of the signs of the times.

Consider this verse:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom (Satan's false gospel) shall be preached in all the world (completely within the believer) for a witness unto all nations (all the beliefs of the believer); and then shall the end come (time of conversion).

After an Elect believer has received the Latter Rain and has their spiritual blindness healed, they will see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (God's Temple) when the spirit of anti-Christ indwelt them.

Mat 24:15 When ye (not "if") therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (because judgment is about to fall).

In verse 16, Christ is referring to the "type" taught by Lot fleeing Sodom and Gomorrah.

The one who flees to the mountains (Lot) represents the newly born child of God who is not judged. Only the man of sin & Great Harlot are judged. Sodom (also called the Great Harlot) represents the marred spirit of the believer which has a carnal and religious spiritual nature. Gomorrah represents the man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ. Both are destroyed during judgment.

As for the physical Nation of Israel, they will die in their sins during this present age and will be resurrected to judgment in the final age. But before any of them perish from their time of judgment (symbolized by the Lake of Fire), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need to be saved (Mat 23:23). This will happen to them AFTER the last of the unbelieving Gentiles are saved:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The only event that happens at the literal end of this age is the bodily resurrection from the grave. It is shown here:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God (the sheep/Elect-only the Elect can "stand" before God); and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of Life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works (works of faith). 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead (the goats, all unsaved mankind) which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works (works of their hands).

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Joe

 

[Doug]

Dear Doug,
You said:
saints are holy as well so you cant base which is which on this verse alone

You are exactly right. That is why we must look to other scripture to find out who comes back with Christ when He brings the Latter Rain and salvation.

2Thes 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, (converted, entered into the rest of Christ) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 18 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Here is the verse again:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones (angels).

Paul is writing to unconverted Thessalonian believers (babes). They have received the Early Rain of the Spirit and are waiting for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain. When they receive the Latter Rain, they will be made blameless when they are judged during the Day of the Lord. This happened to the Thessalonian Elect before any of them physically died which would have been somewhere around 55 - 70 A.D.

A second reason for why the holy ones are angels is because there are no Elect available to come with Christ when He comes to the other Elect believers. The Elect are not available because the bodily resurrection from the grave does not occur until the end of this age. So when Christ comes a second time to the Thessalonian Elect, all the other Elect are either still in the flesh or they are in the grave waiting for the resurrection. The only holy ones available to come with Christ are the holy angels.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

You said:
Are you saying Christ is not coming back at the end of the tribulation to save Israel?

As I stated in my first post, NONE of what is commonly taught about end-time prophecy is true.

The end of the ages is a spiritual symbol which represents the conversion of the Elect. It is not talking about literal time. When the end of the ages comes upon an Elect person, they will be converted and made blameless. Immediately after they are made blameless, the Day of the Lord will commence and remove all the spiritual things (chaff) within them that has made them carnally minded and sinful. After this judgment is complete, the believer will be converted.

Also, there is no time of tribulation that happens at the literal end of this age. The great tribulation is referring to when an Elect believer experiences a time of being indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ, causing them to become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). This is when they become a man of sin, a seven headed beast with 10 horns & crowns, a false prophet and a minister of Satan.

All the Elect since Paul's "departing" will experience a time of great tribulation right before Christ returns to convert them. This is one of the signs of the times.

Consider this verse:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom (Satan's false gospel) shall be preached in all the world (completely within the believer) for a witness unto all nations (all the beliefs of the believer); and then shall the end come (time of conversion).

After an Elect believer has received the Latter Rain and has their spiritual blindness healed, they will see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (God's Temple) when the spirit of anti-Christ indwelt them.

Mat 24:15 When ye (not "if") therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (because judgment is about to fall).

In verse 16, Christ is referring to the "type" taught by Lot fleeing Sodom and Gomorrah.

The one who flees to the mountains (Lot) represents the newly born child of God who is not judged. Only the man of sin & Great Harlot are judged. Sodom (also called the Great Harlot) represents the marred spirit of the believer which has a carnal and religious spiritual nature. Gomorrah represents the man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ. Both are destroyed during judgment.

As for the physical Nation of Israel, they will die in their sins during this present age and will be resurrected to judgment in the final age. But before any of them perish from their time of judgment (symbolized by the Lake of Fire), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need to be saved (Mat 23:23). This will happen to them AFTER the last of the unbelieving Gentiles are saved:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the D

Paul is writing to unconverted Thessalonian believers (babes). They have received the Early Rain of the Spirit and are waiting for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain. When they receive the Latter Rain, they will be made blameless when they are judged during the Day of the Lord. This happened to the Thessalonian Elect before any of them physically died which would have been somewhere around 55 - 70 A.D.

I am having a hard time following your doctrine so correct me if I am wrong
I take it you are saying we get the Spirit in installments per se whereas the Bible says we receive it all and are sealed ...........
[2Co 1:22 KJV] 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
[Eph 1:13 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

A second reason for why the holy ones are angels is because there are no Elect available to come with Christ when He comes to the other Elect believers. The Elect are not available because the bodily resurrection from the grave does not occur until the end of this age. So when Christ comes a second time to the Thessalonian Elect, all the other Elect are either still in the flesh or they are in the grave waiting for the resurrection. The only holy ones available to come with Christ are the holy angels.

But the Bible says we go to Christ upon death .........[2Co 5:8 KJV] 8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The resurrection of the body for the body of Christ occurs before the end of the age............. [1Th 4:16-17 KJV] 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The end of the ages is a spiritual symbol which represents the conversion of the Elect. It is not talking about literal time. When the end of the ages comes upon an Elect person, they will be converted and made blameless. Immediately after they are made blameless.

I take the Bible literally and believe the coming of the Lord

 

[FaithWillDo]

I am having a hard time following your doctrine so correct me if I am wrong

Dear Doug,
You said:
I take it you are saying we get the Spirit in installments per se whereas the Bible says we receive it all and are sealed ...........

Yes, the Spirit is given in TWO installments. Even the Apostles and Paul are shown to have received the Spirit in TWO installments.

Here is Eph 1:13 again with my comments inserted:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted (because of receiving the Early Rain), after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom ALSO AFTER that ye believed (after a time of waiting), ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (by the Latter Rain),

When the Apostles called Jesus "Lord", it was before they received the Latter Rain on the Day of Pentecost. How was that possible in light of what Paul says below?

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles called Jesus "Lord" because they were given the Holy Spirit when they walked with Christ in the flesh (Mat 16:17). However, it was only the small measure of the Spirit (Early Rain) and not the baptism that they received on the Day of Pentecost.

Also, Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and that is when he first called Jesus "Lord".

Acts 9:6 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

After Paul's time of waiting, he received the Latter Rain. That is when Paul's spiritual blindness was healed:

Acts 9:17 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

After a person is given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will have a measure of faith and will be "called to be a saint". If they are chosen, Christ will come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain.

Mat 22:14 For many are called (Early Rain), but few are chosen (both the Early & Latter Rain).

The Early Rain is a small measure of the Spirit but it will give the person a "measure of faith" and certain spiritual gifts. Consider what Paul said to the Corinthian church (babes) who had only received the Early Rain:

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS ...

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (by the Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

James says it takes both the Early and Latter Rain before an Elect person is ready to be harvested.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James is writing to unconverted babes who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. James tells them to be patient because the "coming of the Lord draweth nigh". James correctly understood the second coming of Christ and that it was not a far off event in the life of an Elect person.

Consider these scriptures:

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD (after being given the Early Rain): his going forth is prepared as the morning (when the Sun rises/Latter Rain/conversion); and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

The Latter Rain comes to an Elect believer after a time of waiting (as James & Paul both said).

Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the Latter Rain.

You said:
But the Bible says we go to Christ upon death...

Scripture never says that we go to Christ upon death. When a person dies, their spirit returns to God and their body returns to dust. They remain in a state of death (no consciousness) until the resurrection from the grave. Upon a person's resurrection, their consciousness returns. An Elect person will then be with Christ, having no knowledge of any time passing.

Read 1Thes 4:13-18 again. Paul was asked by the Thessalonians about their loved ones who had died in Christ. Paul answered them by telling them about the resurrection from the grave. If a person immediately goes to Christ upon their death, Paul would have told them so here - but He doesn't. Paul tells them about the coming of the resurrection.

You said:
I take the Bible literally and believe the coming of the Lord.

Babes in Christ are spiritually blind and understand scripture in a carnal (literal) way. But Christ's words are "spirit" (John 6:63) and they carry meanings that are different than how mankind understands them:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

Paul also said this:

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Paul teaches the truth of Christ in a mystery. He does it by using spirit words which have spiritual meanings.

When Christ came in the flesh, He spoke Hebrew just like the other Jews did. But His Hebrew was made up of spirit words which made His language "another language". I call this language Christ's spiritual language.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they (babes who draw milk) might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The spiritual language of Christ requires a person to have the Spirit of Truth (Latter Rain) for understanding to take place. When a person has the Spirit of Truth, it will guide them in their understanding of Christ's spiritual language. Without the Spirit of Truth, a babe will be spiritually blind which will cause them to "fall backward, and be broken, and snared and taken" by Satan. The spiritual blindness of babes is what gives Satan the ability to deceive them and to make them "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

Joe