Limited atonement is a false gospel

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Runningman

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It says he was granted to do so....there is nowhere in scripture that specifically said he cast out any demon..

I also believe that God chose Judas to betray Jesus...that was Gods plan from the beginning ...God knows the heart of a person from the beginning of their life to the very end of their life ....he could see the heart of Judas..that’s why he chose him, he fulfilled Gods plan ....in that he was the one who was chosen by God to betray the Holy one.....we serve a very clever God....that is my opinion and belief only.


Sorry, there is nowhere in that scripture that specifically says that’s” Judas”:cast out devils.

Jesus sent out the 12...he gave them authority....we can’t see anywhere that “ Judas” drove out impure spirits....we can “ assume”:that he did....but, there is nowhere in scripture to say that he did.

Unless I can read that Judas drove out demons...then I don’t believe that he personally did, even though it says he was given authority, that is not saying that he drove any demons out..it’s just saying that he was given “ authority “ that’s all that scripture is saying....personally, I don’t believe he did..,because it’s not written that “ Judas” drove out demons...he had Jesus authority...
Therefore I agree to disagree...
Jesus Sends Out the Twelve
10 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

Also.

Mark 14​

King James Version​

14 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.
2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.
3 And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.
4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made?
5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.
6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.
7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.
9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.
10 And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them.
11 And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him.
12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it
Provided that Judas was given the authority to do what only a believer has the authority to do means he was given a spiritual gift regardless of whether or not he exercised it. Since Judas was actually a believer like the other apostles, it's strong evidence that they all did what Jesus empowered them to do. It's incomprehensible that Jesus would empower someone that did not have the faith to accept such an empowerment, contrary to Scripture explicitly stating the kind of authority Judas had was specifically for believers in Mar 16:17. The evidence leans more toward Judas probably doing miracles rather than not.

The Bible does not say "God chose Judas to betray Jesus." You're doing what I am doing. You are taking the evidence for what you specifically want to believe and then disregarding the evidence for the things you do not want to believe. I personally believe it's unlikely Judas was specifically singled out for damnation. There are no prophecies that mention Judas specifically by name, nor did Jesus seem to know exactly who would dip their bread in his cup with him, but only that they knew someone would be a betrayer and it ended up being Judas who seemed shocked to discover it was him.

For a time Judas was a genuine believer empowered to do miracles before his eventual betrayal and losing of his salvation.
 
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Ritajanice

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Provided that Judas was given the authority to do what only a believer has the authority to do means he was given a spiritual gift regardless of whether or not he exercised it. Since Judas was actually a believer like the other apostles, it's strong evidence that they all did what Jesus empowered them to do. It's incomprehensible that Jesus would empower someone that did not have the faith to accept such an empowerment, contrary to Scripture explicitly stating the kind of authority Judas had was specifically for believers in Mar 16:17. The evidence leans more toward Judas probably doing miracles rather than not.

The Bible does not say "God chose Judas to betray Jesus." You're doing what I am doing
No, I am not doing what you are doing,,,I am voicing what I believe....just like you...none can be proven.
. You are taking the evidence for what you specifically want to believe and then disregarding the evidence for the things you do not want to believe. I personally believe it's unlikely Judas was specifically singled out for damnation. There are no prophecies that mention Judas specifically by name, nor did Jesus seem to know exactly who would dip their bread in his cup with him, but only that they knew someone would be a betrayer and it ended up being Judas who seemed shocked to discover it was him.

For a time Judas was a genuine believer empowered to do miracles before his eventual betrayal and losing of his salvation.
I am not here to argue with you over Judas...I am posting exactly what I believe..there is no evidence in the Bible that Judas cast out any demons..you can believe what ever you want to believe....I just disagree with what you believe.....,I stand by every one of my posts and God does not want me to continually go round in circles..arguing over it...so...in obedience to God..I bid you a lovely day ahead..God Bless.
 
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Lizbeth

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Are you saying that there wasn't a man named Noah or only that the ark was never actually built. It was all just a made up story?
No, that isn't what I'm saying. The account of Noah and the ark (as well as other accounts) happened historically but was written down to teach spiritual lessons for us....a kind of living parable....an allegory. The bible isn't meant to be a history book, but the spiritual word of God. "He speaks to us in parables......" And "these things happened unto them and were written for our ensamples...."

Yes and no. The blood of the Lamb of God I'd available to all. And all will accepting its effectual power. But just not in this age. Only the elect will see this offer on the table and take hold of it by faith.
If that were the case then the word "limited" isn't applicable at all. But I don't believe that is the case, otherwise perish wouldn't mean perish and destruction wouldn't mean destruction. It's a case of either inherit eternal life or only live out one's temporal life......like the beasts that perish. There will be no offer on the table after the end of this age.
 

Lizbeth

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For sure. But this is where the Spirit in us come in. What's literal what's not.

Like Joseph, who couldn't interpret dreams naturally but required the Spirit to do this with him.
I agree for sure. But that is no guarantee at all of ending all disagreements. We need to test all things and make sure what we believe doesn't contradict any other scriptures.
 
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Lizbeth

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Yes, Satan is very active atm. God's will is being carried out. It's exciting! And we get to not only watch this divine blockbuster play out before us but we get to participate in it. Fantastic! What a privilege hey.
We need to have our trust and faith in the Sovereign Lord but it's all very serious and tragic for most people. Nothing "exciting" about it. We are to be SOBER and alert.
 
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Runningman

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No, I am not doing what you are doing,,,I am voicing what I believe....just like you...none can be proven.

I am not here to argue with you over Judas...I am posting exactly what I believe..there is no evidence in the Bible that Judas cast out any demons..you can believe what ever you want to believe....I just disagree with what you believe.....,I stand by every one of my posts and God does not want me to continually go round in circles..arguing over it...so...in obedience to God..I bid you a lovely day ahead..God Bless.
Yes, I strongly encourage you to not go around in circles about it if you believe God does not want you to. I personally believe God wants me to go around in circles about this, if necessary, but probably leans more toward me allocating my time and energy effectively on people who are open to it.

I know what it's like to argue, debate, or conversate about a topic that ends up going no where, year after year after year after year. I am guilty finding a hill where I will literally die on if I need to. Though it probably shouldn't be this way to be honest. It's probably a pride and ego thing, though I have the self-awareness to realize that the gospel is worth it if it helps anyone eventually.

What I do know is that limited atonement is also not specifically mentioned in the Bible as well. What I believe is to take what is explicitly stated about the gospel and the atonement. The Bible says Jesus died for the world that whosoever believes may be saved and Jesus commissioned this very gospel not only to the Jews, but also the the Gentiles.
 

Lizbeth

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Provided that Judas was given the authority to do what only a believer has the authority to do means he was given a spiritual gift regardless of whether or not he exercised it. Since Judas was actually a believer like the other apostles, it's strong evidence that they all did what Jesus empowered them to do. It's incomprehensible that Jesus would empower someone that did not have the faith to accept such an empowerment, contrary to Scripture explicitly stating the kind of authority Judas had was specifically for believers in Mar 16:17. The evidence leans more toward Judas probably doing miracles rather than not.

The Bible does not say "God chose Judas to betray Jesus." You're doing what I am doing. You are taking the evidence for what you specifically want to believe and then disregarding the evidence for the things you do not want to believe. I personally believe it's unlikely Judas was specifically singled out for damnation. There are no prophecies that mention Judas specifically by name, nor did Jesus seem to know exactly who would dip their bread in his cup with him, but only that they knew someone would be a betrayer and it ended up being Judas who seemed shocked to discover it was him.

For a time Judas was a genuine believer empowered to do miracles before his eventual betrayal and losing of his salvation.
I haven't followed the whole train of thought in the conversation regarding Judas, but I think I might have some thoughts that might contribute, if they haven't already been brought up. One is that it might be helpful to keep in mind that the gifts and callings are irrevocable. A person may come to Christ and believe but then go astray of the truth and walk in disobedience to the truth while still keeping their gift/calling (though it may become tainted and misused.....I believe this is why the false prophet can do miracles to try and deceive the elect). Tares are tares when they prove and show themselves to be such as they "grow" along....that's why all are judged in the end, not in the beginning of one's life and walk. Jesus spoke of the net being cast and many fish are caught, but afterwards some are thrown away........when they prove themselves to be bad fish. We are told we must overcome and endure faithful to the end....the proving of our faith. Lest we fall away or become reprobate.
 
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Ritajanice

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What I do know is that limited atonement is also not specifically mentioned in the Bible as well
Do you believe that everyone will see the Kingdom Of God?

I understand limited atonement as...only a Born Again will see the Kingdom Of God.

I think limited atonement means, that only God can choose who comes to his Son..plus they were predestined before the foundation of the world...

I don’t understand it to be honest.plus God says that he wants none to perish...he’s a long time suffering God...
 
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Behold

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I understand limited atonement as...only a Born Again will see the Kingdom Of God.

Limited Atonement, is not found in a Bible.

Its a man made phrase, created by a Heretic, who decided that He would create a Thrology........being led of a demon to do it, that DENIES that Jesus died for everyone.........and offers Himself as the Savior for everyone.
 
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Ritajanice

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Limited Atonement, is not found in a Bible.

Its a man made phrase, created by a Heretic, who decided that He would create a Thrology........being led of a demon to do it, that DENIES that Jesus died for everyone.........and offers Himself as the Savior for everyone.
I have asked Brightfame many questions..asking him about limited atonement, he just ignores me... I don’t understand a lot of what he teaches.

I think he teaches that everyone is predetermined to either go to hell or Heaven..I don’t understand it. @Rockerduck i understand him..he may be able to explain what it means in simple terms that I understand..

Why anyone would not want all to be with God is beyond my understanding...I pray for my family...and the world that they come to know God as I know him..
 

One 2 question

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No, that isn't what I'm saying. The account of Noah and the ark (as well as other accounts) happened historically but was written down to teach spiritual lessons for us....a kind of living parable....an allegory. The bible isn't meant to be a history book, but the spiritual word of God. "He speaks to us in parables......" And "these things happened unto them and were written for our ensamples...."
So if I say that this story represents the elect, chosen few who will escape God's coming judgement then that's OK with you?
We need to have our trust and faith in the Sovereign Lord but it's all very serious and tragic for most people. Nothing "exciting" about it. We are to be SOBER and alert.
It's all in how you see and interprete it hey. We live both live on the same planet yet judge things differently. But that's OK.
 

Runningman

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I haven't followed the whole train of thought in the conversation regarding Judas, but I think I might have some thoughts that might contribute, if they haven't already been brought up. One is that it might be helpful to keep in mind that the gifts and callings are irrevocable. A person may come to Christ and believe but then go astray of the truth and walk in disobedience to the truth while still keeping their gift/calling (though it may become tainted and misused.....I believe this is why the false prophet can do miracles to try and deceive the elect). Tares are tares when they prove and show themselves to be such as they "grow" along....that's why all are judged in the end, not in the beginning of one's life and walk. Jesus spoke of the net being cast and many fish are caught, but afterwards some are thrown away........when they prove themselves to be bad fish. We are told we must overcome and endure faithful to the end....the proving of our faith. Lest we fall away or become reprobate.
I agree with what you're saying here and view this the same way.
 
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Runningman

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Do you believe that everyone will see the Kingdom Of God?

I understand limited atonement as...only a Born Again will see the Kingdom Of God.

I think limited atonement means, that only God can choose who comes to his Son..plus they were predestined before the foundation of the world...

I don’t understand it to be honest.plus God says that he wants none to perish...he’s a long time suffering God...
Good points, but I think of it like this. The 12 apostles were those who were initially chosen, hand selected, and given to Jesus by the Father. After that, it became more general as the message went to the world. I believe God is calling everyone because he wants literally all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and not wanting anyone to perish, but rather everyone come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) So it seems pretty clear to me. If "all people" and "everyone" in the "world" isn't explicit enough then I don't know what is. I believe people have free will. Limited atonement only works if there is no free will.
 
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One 2 question

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Good points, but I think of it like this. The 12 apostles were those who were initially chosen, hand selected, and given to Jesus by the Father. After that, it became more general as the message went to the world. I believe God is calling everyone because he wants literally all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and not wanting anyone to perish, but rather everyone come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) So it seems pretty clear to me. If "all people" and "everyone" in the "world" isn't explicit enough then I don't know what is. I believe people have free will. Limited atonement only works if there is no free will.
Yes, according to Jesus, He chose His first 12 disciples, they didn't choose Him.

He said to the 12, including Judas,

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

12 thrones. 12 disciples
 
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Behold

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Ihe teaches that everyone is predetermined to either go to hell or Heaven..

That is exaclty : Hyper Calvinism........a part of the teaching.

Calvinism, is "the 5 Points", or T.U.L.I.P..........and then this was evolved into "Hyper Calvinism"

One of the false teachings of Hyper Calvinism, that is based on "Limiting the Cross".. (Limited Atonement) is that God does not allow some people to trust in Christ......He has chosen them to be born to go to Hell.

And of course that is not True........but, that is what Brightframe has been decived to Believe, so that is whe He teaches this Cross Denying theology.
 
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Behold

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That sounds “ ridiculous “ to me...Born to go to hell....there ain’t no scripture that supports that...

Not one verse says or implies that Loving God is choosing who is going to go to the Lake of Fire, before they are born, and that He wont allow them to become a Christian.

That is CALVIN's God, and he's a monster.

OUR GOD< saves sinners.........Our GOD, loves EVERYONE.
 

Lizbeth

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So if I say that this story represents the elect, chosen few who will escape God's coming judgement then that's OK with you?
Yes, as long as we understand that they were elect/chosen according to the foreknowledge of God. Not that He explicitly and wilfully rejected the rest of mankind, but that they are the ones who rejected the means to salvation.

It's all in how you see and interprete it hey. We live both live on the same planet yet judge things differently. But that's OK.
Is it ok? I don't believe so. I want and pray to see and interpret things according to truth.
 

Lambano

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I think he teaches that everyone is predetermined to either go to hell or Heaven..I don’t understand it.
Yes, he does teach that.
I think limited atonement means, that only God can choose who comes to his Son..plus they were predestined before the foundation of the world...
Yes you understand correctly. And "Limited" means some are chosen, and some are not chosen. If the ones God chooses to rebirth were predestined for Heaven from the foundation of the world, then the ones God does not choose were predestined to go to Hell before the foundation of the world.

Does that help you understand?

And do you understand why I fight against this doctrine?
 

amigo de christo

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Yes, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. What chance have they got but to believe ..... a lie.

Everyone's against them, Satan the deceiver, the world, their sinful desires and now God.

Thanks be to God He has an eternal purpose and plan.
I sure hope you have not taken a nose dive off the board of inclusivsim universalism .
Take heed its sent unto those WHO REJECTED .
Massive terrifying damanation awaits all who rejected JESUS is the CHRIST , SON OF GOD , MESSIAH , ONLY WAY TO GOD
and that one must beleive . Sure hope you know that my friend .
 
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