Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[Doug]

But the nations were instructed to keep the commands of Christ like the Jews.

Are you talking about Acts 15? if you are they determined not to put the Gentiles under the law.....................[Act 15:24 KJV] 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:

 

[Doug]

That is us! The Apostle declares in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit.”

The Holy Spirit shows the change that occurred under the new covenant where physical circumcision has been superseded by just spiritual circumcision through salvation. To admit this would force you to change your theology. But the change is so clear and indisputable. Your rebuttal is just you repeating your own opinions - as if that is a valid argument. It is not. That seems to be a pattern in your posts. Scripture overrides your speculations.

Romans 2:25-29 is quite powerful in that it changes the nature and scope of what a real Jew (the “circumcision”) and a real Gentile (the “uncircumcision”) are in God’s eyes. God takes these common natural terms and spiritualises them, and in doing so redefines the whole argument of true identity.

Throughout the New Testament, the natural ethnic title “uncircumcision” (normally used to describe a Gentile) is amazingly used to describe the unbelieving Jew. Also, the natural ethnic title “circumcision” (normally used to describe a natural Jew) is amazingly used to describe the believing Gentile. This would have been anathema to the unbelieving Jews of Paul’s day. It would have been the greatest insult to a Jew.

He is comparing those that are spiritually circumcised (representing all believers – both Jew and Gentile) to those that are spiritually non-circumcised (representing unbelievers – both Jew and Gentile). This is essentially a saved or lost issue, which keeps coming up repeatedly in Scripture. That is the only 2 peoples in this world, not Jew or Gentile.

It would be helpful to categorise the parties in view. Let us illustrate.

(A) Physical circumcision
(B) Physical non-circumcision
(C) Spiritual circumcision of the heart
(D) Spiritual non-circumcision of the heart

What Paul is saying is that A and B means nothing. Salvation is not a natural matter. He is emphasizing here as he continually does in his writings, C and D are what it is all about. This is how God truly views all men. Nothing else matters. He shows that C refers to all irrespective of race, nationality or status that accept Christ. He especially highlights how the Gentile who is by nature a B has been brought into this chosen grouping (C) through the blood of Jesus. He equally shows that D refers to all irrespective of race, nationality or status who reject Christ. He especially highlights the fact there will be those of A that equally belong to D and therefore damned. Nothing could be simpler.

In short, he shows that there will be those that are one thing in the natural and the opposite in the spiritual. Natural Jews can be spiritually classed as Gentiles (or heathens) and natural Gentiles can be spiritually classed as Jews. Of course, a natural Jew can also be a spiritual Jew through Christ, and a natural Gentile can be spiritually classed as a Gentile (or heathen) through refusing Christ.

Are you saying you are a spiritual Jew?
Romans 2 was talking about Jews..........................[Rom 2:17, 25 KJV] 17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, ... 25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you saying you are a spiritual Jew?
Romans 2 was talking about Jews..........................[Rom 2:17, 25 KJV] 17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, ... 25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Doug, do you ever ask God for wisdom or do you rely completely on your own understanding?

Paul is saying there that circumcision has benefit if you keep the law, but if you don't then it means nothing and is as if you have not be circumcised. And everyone breaks the law since all have sinned (Romans 3:23). So, being a spiritual Jew has NOTHING to do with being physically circumcised. Read what Paul said here...

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In this passage Paul describes the criteria for being a spiritual Jew. He makes it clear that it is NOT based on anything outward or physical like circumcision by saying "he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly". Paul points out that instead "he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit". So, being a spiritual Jew has nothing to do with being physically circumcised, bur rather being spiritually circumcised. And all believers, Jew and Gentile, are circumcised spiritually.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Doug]

We have been grafted into the remnant of believing Israel. We are now one with them. There is no racial distinction any more or apartheid (that you are fixated with). God looks as the Church as one flock, one fold and one people.

[Rom 11:17 KJV] 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The only Gentiles grafted in to believing Israel were the Gentiles that believed Peter in Acts 10.................[Rom 11:17 KJV] 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have been acting as if you are an expert on this book in this past few weeks, when you have no clue as to its nature, structure and symbolism.

Exactly. I have never seen anything like this before where someone admits to not having studied something much and then acts like they are the ultimate expert on it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

[Rom 11:17 KJV] 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The only Gentiles grafted in to believing Israel were the Gentiles that believed Peter in Acts 10.................[Rom 11:17 KJV] 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

I assume you are a Gentile. You don't believe that you are grafted in (joined together) with believing Jews in the one body of Christ?

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

 

[Doug]

It does not say this anywhere. You force your Zionist views on text after text. Hello! We have entered the new covenant. The old is gone forever. Race means nothing today. It is all about grace. The Gospel is open equally to Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no racial favoritism any more. Thank God!

• We have moved from the old to the new covenant. The rules have therefore changed.
• We are not going back to racial favor.
• People who reject Christ are not God's chosen or His children, they are children of the devil.

The only way your arguments are sustained are by removing the whole New Testament teaching on this subject from off the table.

There has only ever been one people of God. We have been grafted into faithful Israel. You are trying to make 2 out of 1, when Scriptures clearly make 1 out of 2. I prefer Scripture to your theories.

Romans 2:25 tells us: “if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.”

Paul explains in Romans 9:8: “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Romans 10:12 states: “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”

I Corinthians 7:17 declares, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

Colossians 3:11 declares, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Galatians 3:28 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Galatians 5:2 declares, “if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

Race means nothing any more – forever, it is all of grace. Being natural means nothing when it comes to salvation. That is a myth that conflicts with New Testament teaching.

The fact is, there is (and only has been) one people of God from the beginning. Whilst they were largely found within the nation of Israel before the cross, that was broadened out after the cross to embrace all nations. Race means nothing under the new covenant. The New Testament outlines clearly and repeatedly that "there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.

The Gospel is open equally to Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no racial favoritism any more. Thank God!

Yes.......Paul's gospel

We have moved from the old to the new covenant. The rules have therefore changed.

So Israel is in all the promised land and are all obeying the law and there is a temple and temple sacrifices because that's what God says about the new covenant
the only change in the law as I see it is to make Christ a priest after the order of Melchizedek and not Levites

You are trying to make 2 out of 1, when Scriptures clearly make 1 out of 2. I prefer Scripture to your theories.

Paul makes there no Jew or Gentile but a new creature
Did you ever consider that God was reconciling the heavens and earth and Israel was purposed to reconcile the land and the body of Christ will reconcile the heavens and in the future will all be one under Christ

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes.......Paul's gospel

Is there any other gospel?

So Israel is in all the promised land and are all obeying the law and there is a temple and temple sacrifices because that's what God says about the new covenant

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The new covenant was established by the blood of Christ and made the temple sacrifices obsolete. Read Hebrews 8-10!

Did you ever consider that God was reconciling the heavens and earth and Israel was purposed to reconcile the land and the body of Christ will reconcile the heavens and in the future will all be one under Christ

 

[Doug]

Mark 3:11, 23-27 records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes (during His earthly ministry) dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Isaiah 61:1-2: “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn.”

It is no coincidence that Jesus read this Old Testament passage as His first message. This was deliberate and this was providential. It set the stage for what was about to come. He set out a marker! Isaiah 61:1 is Christ’s mission statement. Here He laid all His cards on the table. Here He confirmed His assignment. This embodied who He was and what drove Him during His ministry. This was Christ’s earthly task. This was His agenda. This is what He come to achieve. This was His goal. Jesus come to set man free. He was a liberator.

• He didn’t want to leave man in a spiritual prison.
• He didn’t want to leave him in darkness.
• He didn’t want him to be a trophy of Satan’s assaults.
• He didn’t want him to be broken-hearted.

These captives that He spoke about who were about to be liberated were you and me. His mission included binding up the brokenhearted.

Ephesians 4:8 says, “When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive.”

Hades had no more hold upon the Old Testament redeemed because the penalty had been paid for sin, and therefore death, Hades and Satan were stripped of their ugly power over them.

In an article on John Piper’s Desiring God website, fellow of theology at New Saint Andrews College Joe Rigney teaches: “Following his death for sin, then, Jesus journeys to Hades, to the city of death, and rips its gates off the hinges. He liberates Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, John the Baptist, and the rest of the Old Testament faithful, ransoming them from the power of Sheol … They had waited there for so long, not having received what was promised, so that their spirits would be made perfect along with the saints of the new covenant (Hebrews 11:39–40; 12:23).

He continues: “After his resurrection, Jesus ascends to heaven and brings the ransomed dead with him, so that now paradise is no longer down near the place of torment, but is up in the third heaven, the highest heaven, where God dwells.”

David Wilkerson said: “Jesus plundered the devil at Calvary, stripping him of all power and authority. When Christ rose victorious from the grave, he led an innumerable host of redeemed captives out of Satan's grasp. And that blood-bought procession is still marching on.”

Barnes Notes on the Bible says: "Man was held by Satan as a prisoner. His chains were around him. Christ rescued the captive prisoner, and designed to make him a part of his triumphal procession into heaven, that thus the victory might be complete."

the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago

Are you saying Rev 20:2 has been fulfilled 2000yrs ago?

 

[Doug]

1 Peter 2:9-10 declares, whilst addressing the New Testament Church of Jesus Christ, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy (Hosea 2:23).”

Peter describes the Church as “a chosen generation” (or a chosen race), “a royal priesthood” and “an holy nation.” He relates this to all believers, irrespective of natural race. This shows us the spiritual nature of the Israeli designation in the New Testament.

Peter explains the continuity between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament, showing the people in view to be the New Testament Church (consisting both of Jews and Gentiles). In fact, he applies this mainly to Gentiles. To support his reasoning, he employs Hosea 2:23 which predicted the enlightening of the Gentiles, and their integration into the people of God. This is demonstrated in verse 23, where he testifies that the mainly Gentile Church who were once “not a people, but are now the people of God” had now been integrated into the Israel of God. He reinforces this point, telling us that they “which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Hosea 2:23 reads: “And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.”

Peter describes the Church as “a chosen generation” (or a chosen race), “a royal priesthood” and “an holy nation.” He relates this to all believers, irrespective of natural race. This shows us the spiritual nature of the Israeli designation in the New Testament.

[1Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Peter was writing to the scattered believing remnant of Israel

 

[Doug]

You think this passage is only referring to physical Israel? Did you actually read the passage? What does it mean when it says "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"?

God is not talking about Gentiles but the seed of Abraham (Israel in the flesh.......physical Israel)

 

[Doug]

The content of the letter indicates no such thing. Not even close.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—

Can you see here where Paul specifically started talking directly to the Gentiles that were in the church in Ephesus? How can you think that it was a Jewish church when part of the letter was specifically addressed to the Gentiles in that church?

You need to study scripture more carefully and dig deeper. You are just skimming the surface.

maybe there was more than one church in Ephesus

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

[1Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Peter was writing to the scattered believing remnant of Israel

There were Gentile believers who had been living in Israel and were scattered throughout those areas as well. Cornelius and the members of his family are examples of Gentiles who lived in Israel back then.

 

[Doug]

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So, you are saying that what is written here does not apply to Gentiles? Are Gentiles not born of God by way of their faith in Jesus? We can't know that Gentiles love the children of God when we love God and keep His commandments? Do Gentile believers not overcome the world by way of their faith in Jesus?

Gentiles have always had a way to be saved

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God is not talking about Gentiles but the seed of Abraham (Israel in the flesh.......physical Israel)

Please look at the passage carefully. Is it talking only about the physical seed of Abraham or also about the spiritual seed of Abraham?

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

What do you think it means when it says "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel"? What does it mean when it says "Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children"? What does it mean when it says "it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Gentiles have always had a way to be saved

Why did you not answer my questions? Are you just too busy to read scripture and what anyone here says carefully?

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So, you are saying that what is written here does not apply to Gentiles? Are Gentiles not born of God by way of their faith in Jesus? We can't know that Gentiles love the children of God when we love God and keep His commandments? Do Gentile believers not overcome the world by way of their faith in Jesus?

 

[WPM]

[1Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Peter was writing to the scattered believing remnant of Israel

I showed you otherwise and you totally avoided it. You have to. It forbids what your teachers have misled you with. This is becoming a pattern with you.

I refer you back to my last post that exposes everything you are pushing.

 

[Doug]

And all believers, Jew and Gentile, are circumcised spiritually.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Yes but it cant be said that we are spiritual Jews

 

[WPM]

Why did you not answer my questions? Are you just too busy to read scripture and what anyone here says carefully?

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So, you are saying that what is written here does not apply to Gentiles? Are Gentiles not born of God by way of their faith in Jesus? We can't know that Gentiles love the children of God when we love God and keep His commandments? Do Gentile believers not overcome the world by way of their faith in Jesus?

He is way out of his depth. He has no answers!

 

[WPM]

Are you saying Rev 20:2 has been fulfilled 2000yrs ago?

Yes!