Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days and 2 future raptures separated by 1000 years+?

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have no problem with the word for word translation.

My entire point was that I don’t agree with your paraphrase because it removes words from the translation to create different meaning. You are attempting to remove death from the passage, when death is used intentionally by the author to make a point.

And what point do you think that is, keeping in mind that there will be no death in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:4)?

• The translation states “no longer will and an infant live but a few days nor an old man not complete his days” BUT you paraphrased it to say, “an infant will not become an old man”
  • Infants will not die in birth, old men will not die prematurely - this is the point made by the author.
• The translation states “a youth will die at a hundred years old” BUT you paraphrased it to say “no longer will a youth die at 100 years old”
  • No longer will a child die at 100? When did a child ever die at 100? Instead, The youth will die at a hundred, is simply a phrase portraying prolonged life - someone who dies at the age of 100, would still be considered a youth.

You are doing nothing but just sharing your interpretation of the verse here which is exactly what he is doing as well. Why are you thinking that the verse implies that there will be death in the new heavens and new earth, but that it's saying people will live longer lives at that point when that would contradict Revelation 21:4 which says there will be no more death in the new heavens and new earth?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly! But it would help if he would actual employed logic and common sense.

Yes, sometimes logic and common sense has to be used as well. When it's the case that something is obviously true like 1 + 1 = 2. I would say that he is using logic and common sense purely from the human perspective at times, but human logic and common sense doesn't always line up with what is taught in scripture.

For example, human logic and common sense would tell us that God's promises made to Abraham and his seed in the Old Testament were made to Abraham and his physical seed/descendants since that is what it appears to say. But, Paul said that those promises were made to Abraham and to his seed (not seeds, plural) which is Christ.

He will relinquish any doctrine he holds that conflicts with his beloved Premil. He is obsessed with defending Premil at any cost.

Yes, that is obvious. He gets offended when I accuse him of interpreting things with doctrinal bias, but how can he deny that? He never looks at anything objectively. He's always looking at everything to see how he can make it fit with Premil. That's how he ends up acknowledging that the souls of bodily dead believers are conscious, but not alive (What?!), which is completely ludicrous. He can't bring himself to acknowledge that the souls of the dead in Christ are alive, so he can't see how they can be reigning with Christ in heaven. In order to prevent being accused of soul sleep, he comes up with the nonsense of them being conscious, but not alive. And he does that because of his extreme Premil bias.

He outlines opinions as a fact, just because he thinks it, not because the Book teaches it.

Exactly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is off the above topic (which I will come back to at the close of this post) but regarding the close of the millennium, @Keraz reminded me of the fact that whereas 1 Corinthians 15:22 says that just as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive, 1 Corinthians 15:23 says nothing about the "ALL" but only talks about those who are Christ's at His coming.​

LOL at you thinking that Keraz knows what he's talking about. The all being made alive referenced in verse 22 refer to believers and are clearly those who are Christ's at His coming in verse 23. Only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from seeing that.

 

[Zao is life]

Now you you're accusing us of preaching a false gospel. What a pathetic joke you have become. You will have to answer for this.

Preaching a corrupted gospel like you just corrupted my words. Your pride thinks I will have to answer for your preaching of a corrupted gospel of salvation from sin AND death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Preaching a corrupted gospel like you just corrupted my words. Your pride thinks I will have to answer for your preaching of a corrupted gospel of salvation from sin AND death.

 

[WPM]

Preaching a corrupted gospel like you just corrupted my words. Your pride thinks I will have to answer for your preaching of a corrupted gospel of salvation from sin AND death.

This what people do when they have lost the debate and have nothing of biblical weight to present. You are totally out of your depth on this forum.

 

[Zao is life]

This what people do when they have lost the debate and have nothing of biblical weight to present. You are totally out of your depth on this forum.

Naah. That would be you. Your voice talking to yourself again.

 

[Zao is life]

I wonder more and more often these days if some people who post in these forums perhaps - just maybe - come here with the express purpose of trolling and disrupting the biblical conversations and harassing the saints in order to drag the Bible down to their level by their trolling and pushing of their non-blblical theories even when those theories have been exposed to be non-biblical.

Like sometimes I wonder if maybe some are actually working for someone else, serving the interests of those who want to attempt to drag the Holy Bible down and make Christianity - faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - and the biblical scriptures look pathetic (as pathetic as their trolling).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I wonder more and more often these days if some people who post in these forums perhaps - just maybe - come here with the express purpose of trolling and disrupting the biblical conversations and harassing the saints in order to drag the Bible down to their level by their trolling and pushing of their non-blblical theories even when those theories have been exposed to be non-biblical.

Stop the hypocrisy. You are the one who inevitably starts making things personal with your trolling.

Like sometimes I wonder if maybe some are actually working for someone else, serving the interests of those who want to attempt to drag the Holy Bible down and make Christianity - faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - and the biblical scriptures look pathetic (as pathetic as their trolling).

You are a hypocrite. You do the exact thing you are whining about here. You won't see any Amills claim that Premills who believe the gospel are preaching a corrupt gospel the way you do against Amills. You go way over the line with your insults, but you somehow think you're innocent here. You are completely delusional.

 

[Davidpt]

Why do you interpret it that way? The following describes the regeneration of the current heavens and earth that results in the new heavens and new earth.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

We're not on the same page here, obviously.

Per my thinking, the regeneration meant in Matthew 19:28 doesn't even begin until there is first the beginning of the NHNE. While 2 Peter 3:10-12 is taking place, the beginning of the NHNE hasn't arrived yet. The NHNE are everlasting, yet it has to have a beginning though it has no end. The millennium is the beginning of it. It's the first thousand years of it. A time time period has to explain passages such as Matthew 19:28 and parables such as the one in Luke 19 I brought up pertaining to being given authority over things, not before Christ returns, but after He returns.

No wonder I can't get on board with Amil. Amil has no reasonable solution for any of these things I brought up. Maybe they see what they are proposing as reasonable solutions, but I sure don't.

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

What about a passage like this one? We are in the final days of this age as of this verse. Yet it says--for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. Obviously, it can't be meaning the saved of the nations since they would already be doing these things. And Amil has all of the unsaved of the nations cast into the LOF shortly after Revelation 15:4 is meaning. Therefore, having no one left to explain how this wil be fulfilled---for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

 

[WPM]

I wonder more and more often these days if some people who post in these forums perhaps - just maybe - come here with the express purpose of trolling and disrupting the biblical conversations and harassing the saints in order to drag the Bible down to their level by their trolling and pushing of their non-blblical theories even when those theories have been exposed to be non-biblical.

Like sometimes I wonder if maybe some are actually working for someone else, serving the interests of those who want to attempt to drag the Holy Bible down and make Christianity - faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - and the biblical scriptures look pathetic (as pathetic as their trolling).

LOL, says someone who incapable of refuting one single point that Amils present. This thread is a case in point. Not only have you not addressed it, but you have absolutely no answer to the conundrum Premil produces.

 

[WPM]

Stop the hypocrisy. You are the one who inevitably starts making things personal with your trolling.


You are a hypocrite. You do the exact thing you are whining about here. You won't see any Amills claim that Premills who believe the gospel are preaching a corrupt gospel the way you do against Amills. You go way over the line with your insults, but you somehow think you're innocent here. You are completely delusional.

He is a projectionist. He describes himself in his childish rants.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We're not on the same page here, obviously.

Are we ever on the same page? Maybe rarely. And there's probably not much we can do about since we don't think alike at all.

Per my thinking, the regeneration meant in Matthew 19:28 doesn't even begin until there is first the beginning of the NHNE.

But, why is that the way you think? Where is the scripture which clearly supports that way of thinking in relation to the NHNE?

While 2 Peter 3:10-12 is taking place, the beginning of the NHNE hasn't arrived yet.

I don't get this at all. Do you not claim that the NHNE arrives with the second coming of Christ? You don't think 2 Peter 3:10-12 relates at all to the arrival of Christ at His second coming? If so, is that what you think of this passage as well...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The NHNE are everlasting, yet it has to have a beginning though it has no end. The millennium is the beginning of it. It's the first thousand years of it. A time time period has to explain passages such as Matthew 19:28 and parables such as the one in Luke 19 I brought up pertaining to being given authority over things, not before Christ returns, but after He returns.

Why do those scriptures demand a temporary period of time to occur after His return and before eternity is ushered in? You are not doing anything to clearly explain that so far.

No wonder I can't get onboard with Amil. Amil has no reasonable solution for any of these things I brought up.

It would be helpful if you actually clearly explained how you are coming to your conclusions. Are you able to do that or not?

 

[WPM]

We're not on the same page here, obviously.

Per my thinking, the regeneration meant in Matthew 19:28 doesn't even begin until there is first the beginning of the NHNE. While 2 Peter 3:10-12 is taking place, the beginning of the NHNE hasn't arrived yet. The NHNE are everlasting, yet it has to have a beginning though it has no end. The millennium is the beginning of it. It's the first thousand years of it. A time time period has to explain passages such as Matthew 19:28 and parables such as the one in Luke 19 I brought up pertaining to being given authority over things, not before Christ returns, but after He returns.

No wonder I can't get onboard with Amil. Amil has no reasonable solution for any of these things I brought up. Maybe they see what they are proposing as reasonable solutions, but I sure don't.

LOL. This is typical of the nonsensical reasoning you pour out in your posts. There is zero evidence here to support your claims of a gradual progressive regeneration of the earth. This is typical of your posts over the years. They are full of wild claims but are devoid of actual biblical substance. They are carnal reasoning - anything you can get to support your sinking ship. That is why few take your posts serious serious.

This is exactly how Jack Van-Imp operates. Make sweeping extra-biblical claims, don't quote Scripture, just reference it, and think that the rest of us are foolish enough to take your word for it. Well, this exposes your error, not reinforces it.

 

[WPM]

We're not on the same page here, obviously.

Per my thinking, the regeneration meant in Matthew 19:28 doesn't even begin until there is first the beginning of the NHNE. While 2 Peter 3:10-12 is taking place, the beginning of the NHNE hasn't arrived yet. The NHNE are everlasting, yet it has to have a beginning though it has no end. The millennium is the beginning of it. It's the first thousand years of it. A time time period has to explain passages such as Matthew 19:28 and parables such as the one in Luke 19 I brought up pertaining to being given authority over things, not before Christ returns, but after He returns.

No wonder I can't get on board with Amil. Amil has no reasonable solution for any of these things I brought up. Maybe they see what they are proposing as reasonable solutions, but I sure don't.

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

What about a passage like this one? We are in the final days of this age as of this verse. Yet it says--for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. Obviously, it can't be meaning the saved of the nations since they would already be doing these things. And Amil has all of the unsaved of the nations cast into the LOF shortly after Revelation 15:4 is meaning. Therefore, having no one left to explain how this wil be fulfilled---for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Where in Scripture does it say that "the NHNE is a process that begins with the 2nd coming, thus something not instantaneous"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where in Scripture does it say that "the NHNE is a process that begins with the 2nd coming, thus something not instantaneous"?

Absolutely nowhere. In 2 Peter 3:10-13 Peter indicates that the NHNE is the result of the burning up and renewing of the heavens and the earth. There's no reason to think that would take a long time. And in Revelation 21:1, it indicates that the NHNE only appears after the current heaven and earth have passed away. He has the NHNE initially appearing before the current heaven and earth have passed away.

 

[Scott Downey]

Where in Scripture does it say that "the NHNE is a process that begins with the 2nd coming, thus something not instantaneous"?

This old earth and heaven dissolve fast in a sudden destruction. A fiery one. Fire like that seems to me will burn things up pretty fast.
Then what's left? What comes next is the Judgment. The return of Christ is the Day of Judgment. After that we get our New heaven, New earth. And we enter into the eternal, everlasting state of creation.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Fervent

having or displaying a passionate intensity:
"a fervent disciple of tax reform"
Similar:
impassioned
passionate
intense
vehement
ardent

• archaic
  hot, burning, or glowing.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[WPM]

Absolutely nowhere. In 2 Peter 3:10-13 Peter indicates that the NHNE is the result of the burning up and renewing of the heavens and the earth. There's no reason to think that would take a long time. And in Revelation 21:1, it indicates that the NHNE only appears after the current heaven and earth have passed away. He has the NHNE initially appearing before the current heaven and earth have passed away.

He has been doing this for so long he honestly believes his own resume. He think his "logical reasoning" trumps hard Scripture. He then expects the rest of us align his carnal thinking. It is ridiculous. It is delusional. I can never see him changing. He is totally unaccountable to anyone. That is why he thinks he is exempt from the biblical requirement to be in church and submit himself to divine authority. He is totally unteachable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He has been doing this for so long he honestly believes his own resume. He think his "logical reasoning" trumps hard Scripture. He then expects the rest of us align his carnal thinking. It is ridiculous. It is delusional. I can never see him changing. He is totally unaccountable to anyone. That is why he thinks he is exempt from the biblical requirement to be in church and submit himself to divine authority. He is totally unteachable.

I agree 100%. This passage reminds me of him and most of the other Premills on this forum:

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 

[Scott Downey]

The destruction of the earth and heavens reads to me as if a hydrogen nuclear bomb goes off.
Not saying it is human nuclear bomb.

What we discovered is the tremendous energy holding all matter together. God joins all matter-elements together by fusion from much smaller particles. When those high energy bonds break and form in a nuclear hydrogen bomb, huge energies are released. Result is a burning fiery destruction and a sudden very fast consummation that incinerates everything it touches.

How much greater sudden destruction when God does this to the current heaven and earth and all the elements will burn, and dissolve?