Limited atonement !
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Behold
Well-Known Member
What im doing is loudly exposing Calvinism-HyperCalvinism (TULIP).... as the Satanic Theology that mentally enslaves its deceived.
Runningman
Active Member
I could only pray we could have a Moses versus Pharaoh event and put this to rest, but I have a feeling that won't happen any time soon. You are the type who won't learn anything until you have a personal great tribulation. May God have mercy on you.
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Both words can be used and be perfectly biblical. However, the way I am assuming you are meaning it the answer is no. The Church condemned Universalism in the 4th century. I explained what it means somewhere in this thread.
But Scripture does teach very clearly the redemption, reconciliation, atonement of the world.
Lets keep the theology simple. Two verses, very short verses gives pointed descriptions to the two elements of atonement.
The primary one, which reverses the fall of man, is Heb 2:9 He tasted death for everyone.
Secondly, He performed a sacrifice for sin. I John 2:2 He is the propitiation of our sins not only, but for the world.
You cannot get more universal than that. Do you know anyone that will not die? Do you know anyone that never sinned?
Matthew 7:14 has nothing to do with atonement. The atonement was for God to make His creation right again. This is what II Cor 5:18-19 is addressing. Christ reconciled the world to God. Or you get such verses as John 4:42, I John 4:14. Christ is the Savior of the world.
Christ redeemed this world through His Incarnation. He took on our mortal human nature, and defeated death by His resurrection. Rom 5:18, I Cor 15-12-22 addresses the universality of atonement
Your last sentence is the heresy, not what atonement addresses.
Hope this clarifies, but if you have questions, just ask.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I disagree for the reason I already stated. Jesus says that the way is narrow and FEW find it.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
That is not good enough. The words are spirit, thus the foundation is not established in biblical literary word, but in the Spirit, by which there is only one true translation. Of which Calvin did not have in full, as the final mystery of God was sealed and under restraint until the time when the seventh angel was about to sound. This is that time. What I have told you, is that translation.
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Which has nothing to do with atonement. The atonement was for the purpose for Christ to have union, to have a relationship with man in this life and for eternity.
Why would you reject the texts I cited which uses words that show universality.
Lets start with the fall of man which required Christ to make atonement to God.
Adam sinned and the judgement against him was death, dust to dust. Man would simply be dissolved by death, cease to exist. Everything including God's world would be dissolved by death. This is restated in Rom 5:12. because of one man's sin, death came into the world and spread to all men. It is universal, nothing escapes it. If the cause was universal then the correction also will be universal. It could not be any other way. After all, Christ was defeating Satan who has the power over death and sin Heb 2:14.
Solution. Rom 5:18 gives an equation, death by one man's disobedience came to all men, so by one Man's righteous act came life to all men. Sounds very universal to me.
How did Christ give live to all men. Heb 2:14-15 states that Christ would take upon Himself the human nature of man. Why, so that by His incarnation He could defeat death by His own death because He arose from that death with our human nature, How universal is that, Heb 2:9, He tasted death for everyone. The world, man and Christ's human nature are all from the dust, we are all consubstantial with each other.
Where is the limit so far?
Paul again in I Cor 15:12-22 makes a very clear statement. If the dead are not raised, then Christ is not raised.
The summary of the fall and correction of the fall is another equation. Vs 21-22. As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
We also have the resurrection mentioned in vs 52-53, Everyone or all the dead, will be raised in the last day and all will be made immortal and incorruptible. Still universal. Nothing has been excluded.
In Col 1:20 Paul states that all things were given to Christ with a lot of descriptors which makes it very apparent it is universal, Basically God's created universe. A corresponding text is John 10:39 where John states that of all He has given me I should lose nothing but should raise it up in the last day. Universal again.
But, in vs 40 we have a limitation. All those who see and believe I will give everlasting life and raise them in the last day.
There are several more verses just as direct, and some more subtle. Nothing in scripture even hints at any limitation of His redemptive work, defeating death, reconciling the world.
His sacrifice for sin is no different. He made one sacrifice for all sin. I John 2:2. John 1:37. If you can explain how a sacrifice can be limited, let me know.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
God says that we must also be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God..
That’s limiting in itself.....as it’s God who births our spirit into his...man has no choice in that as it comes by supernatural divine heart revelation.
We are Born Of The Spirit also.....exactly as the word explains = by supernatural,divine,heart revelation.
Unfortunately there are some who add to how we are Born Of The Spirit.
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There are ample amount of scripture that indicate that the extent of Christs Redemptive Death was limited to Gods Elect/Sheep !
Jesus again says whom He specifically died for:
Jn 10:11,15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
The good Shepherd lays down His life in behalf of the sheep. Are all men the sheep of Christ? The honest answer is no, for most men do not know Christ, and Christ says that His sheep know Him John 10:14. and Christs knows His Sheep, but some He declares He never knew Matt 7:23 Further, Jesus specifically told the Jews who did not believe in Him, “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep” John 10:26. Notice that in contrast with the idea that we believe and therefore make ourselves Christ’s sheep, Jesus says that they do not believe because they are not His sheep! Whether one is of Christ’s sheep is the Father’s choice (John 6:37, 8:47), not the sheep’s! 0
Jesus again says whom He specifically died for:
Jn 10:11,15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
The good Shepherd lays down His life in behalf of the sheep. Are all men the sheep of Christ? The honest answer is no, for most men do not know Christ, and Christ says that His sheep know Him John 10:14. and Christs knows His Sheep, but some He declares He never knew Matt 7:23 Further, Jesus specifically told the Jews who did not believe in Him, “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep” John 10:26. Notice that in contrast with the idea that we believe and therefore make ourselves Christ’s sheep, Jesus says that they do not believe because they are not His sheep! Whether one is of Christ’s sheep is the Father’s choice (John 6:37, 8:47), not the sheep’s! 0
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
In contrast to your earlier assertion, the true purpose of the atonement transcends merely creating a bond between Christ and humanity; its foundational aim is to establish a profound relationship between God and mankind. Jesus Christ serves as our mediator and high priest, intricately positioned to intercede on our behalf before God, imploring for His mercy. At the solemn judgment seat, Christ will advocate for us, declaring, "I desire for him to be welcomed into my kingdom." In response to His Son's earnest plea, the Father will graciously grant this request, for He takes delight in His Son's impeccable obedience and righteousness.
The concept of "universality" encompasses various meanings, and it is important for those studying the Bible to carefully consider which specific interpretation applies to each passage they examine. Universal statements can often take two distinct forms: they may be aimed at individual people, addressing their unique circumstances and experiences, or they might focus on groups of individuals, reflecting shared characteristics or collective behaviors. This duality highlights how generalizations can either personalize a message or underscore broader societal trends.
Meaning 1: Every person in the world. -- Everyone.
Meaning 2: Every type of person in the world. -- Every race, sex, class, and nationality are represented.
Biblical statements of universality are typically understood in accordance with the second meaning above.
In that passage, Paul is not recounting a historical narrative. He does not focus on the timeline of death as it propagated from Adam to humanity at large. Rather, his central argument is that both sin and death are universal experiences that affect every individual. Every person in the world ultimately faces death, a consequence that arises from the universal act of sinning. However, it does not logically follow that because sin is a shared human condition, forgiveness must be bestowed upon all individuals without exception. Instead, it is clear that God exercises His sovereign choice in granting forgiveness selectively, offering it to some while withholding it from others.
To fully grasp the meaning of Romans 5:18, it is essential to start with the foundational thesis presented by Paul in verse 15. In this pivotal statement, he seeks to illustrate a powerful truth: the magnitude of God's grace far surpasses the consequences of human transgression. Paul meticulously highlights the striking asymmetry between sin and grace, drawing the reader's attention to this profound contrast. He invites us to delve deeper into this relationship, encouraging a richer understanding of how the overwhelming nature of divine grace eclipses the impact of sin.
In the earlier chapters, Paul presents a compelling argument that our justification comes through faith rather than adherence to the works of the law. He emphasizes that this principle holds universally: anyone who places their faith in Jesus Christ will be justified, receiving God's grace and mercy. Conversely, this also implies that those who rely solely on the observance of the Law, without the anchor of faith in Jesus, will ultimately find themselves without justification. This stark contrast highlights the centrality of faith in the journey toward salvation.
In Romans 5, Paul uses two significant terms that illuminate his argument: "the many" and "all men." The phrase "the many" specifically pertains to the Jewish people, highlighting their unique relationship with God and His promises. Conversely, the term "all men" encompasses humanity as a whole, signifying a broader sense of inclusion. In this context, Paul skillfully employs the phrase "all men" not to imply universal salvation for everyone indiscriminately, but rather to convey the message that the opportunity for justification by faith is not limited to the Jewish community alone. Instead, he emphasizes that God’s promise extends to all peoples, inviting everyone into the fold of faith and grace.
While it may be commonly suggested that the fear of death is an experience shared by all humanity, Paul introduces his thought with a poignant reference to Isaiah and the names of his children. A closer examination of these names reveals the depth of Isaiah's unwavering faith and his steadfast hope in God's promises. Such a profound faith, akin to that which Isaiah possessed, is exceedingly rare among people and cannot be deemed a universal characteristic. This distinction clarifies that Paul is not advocating for the idea of universal advocacy by Christ; rather, his argument is centered on the exceptional individuals among us who embody the same level of faith that Isaiah displayed.
Even so, the focus is on those whom God sanctified, which is not a universal human experience.
To understand Paul's argument, one must constantly bear in mind the question he is addressing. He is not arguing that unless everyone is resurrected, then Christ wasn't resurrected. In this instance, he responds to those who claim that the resurrection is not a real thing. He argues that since Christ has been resurrected, this proves that resurrection from the dead is a reality. In other words, since it is true that God raised at least one person from the dead, Jesus Christ, then resurrection does take place. This one case proves his assertion that resurrection is real.
Here, Paul limits the resurrection to all those who are "in Christ" and since being in Christ is not a universal human experience, then being raised to life is not a universal human experience. Being "in Adam" is a universal human experience; being in Christ is not.
For Paul, the term "all men" is contextual. First, he posits a group of people for discussion. Then, he makes a general statement about all of the members of that group. Consider verses 19 and 20 together. Verse 19 identifies the group under review. Verse 20 makes a general statement about the group.
Colossians 1:19-20 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Here are the terms:
the fullness: the group
all things: every individual within the group.
Paul is discussing a group of people he calls "the fullness", which he defines as "all those whom God will grant eternal life, whether Jew or Gentile past, present and future. Jesus made peace between God and all of them through the blood of the cross.
None of the above even addresses the atonement of Christ.
Respective of the Incarnation it is every single individual and it entails the created universe as well.
We are not speaking of spiritual death here. We did not inherit sin from Adam. We inherited a fallen or mortal nature which became subject to physical death. Christ needed to defeat death, otherwise we all will remain dead and will not have an eternal existence. That condemnation to Adam in the Garden, dust to dust was a verdict against man and the world. The world is physical. man was created from the dust of that world. When the condemnation of death was given it enveloped everything. Which is why Christ needed to assume that same human nature, from the dust, born of Mary, a mortal human being, thus defeating death by His death and resurrection of that human nature. Now, this happens in the eschaton, I Cor 15:52-53 explains that.
You missed completely the meaning of the whole context of Rom 5:12-18. Yes, the magnitude of God's grace far surpasses all of human transgressions. Nevertheless He overlooked all those transgressions, and gave His life for the ungodly, for sinners. Rom 5:6-8. Vs 8 gives you the reason, that is because He overcame death, we can now be saved through His life.
Paul is not addressing justification by faith here. He is addressing the reconciliation, the justification, the righteousness, of Christ's death to God. II Cor 5:18-19. That phrase in Rom 5:18, where he uses the phrase, "justification to life", he is addressing physical life. By Christ's death and resurrection He defeated death and life came to all men, and the world.
Somehow, you seem to be dealing with spiritual death, and about salvation through our faith. This has nothing to do with the atonement. Paul is very specifically referring to all men. Every single human being, all who bear the same mortal nature as we and assumed by Christ through the Incarnation. It does not infer, but categorically states universal salvation FROM DEATH.
You missed the entire meaning of Heb 2:14-15, But it is also about universal sanctification. Christ sanctified all things through His Blood. That is NOT an experience of man. It is Christ doing what God required of Him to save His creation.
That you have correctly stated. It is all about the resurrection of the dead. Which categorically, diametrically denies limited atonement.
And universal which is restated in vs 52-53. Resurrection takes place because Christ defeated death through His Incarnation and raised our human nature to life. This is physical life.
Here you confuse spiritual with the physical again. The Incarnation has nothing to do with spiritual. Paul is drawing a direct equation between Adam and the Second Adam, Christ. Through the judgement of death t0 Adam came death to all men. So also in Christ shall all be made alive. All the dead is physical death. All in Christ is physical life. Has nothing to do with be granted spiritual life through baptism.
The group is the created world which became subject to death due to Adam's sin. And yes, it is everything in the created order. All things, Cannot be more universal.
And He will raise all these things in the last day and lose nothing John 6:39. All the dead will come out of their graves and be judged, Rev 20:11-13.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I gave the meaning of the atonement, which is the restoration of peace between God and the penitent.
That is for you to prove. The verses you quoted are not applicable to every single individual as I have shown.
We did NOT inherit a fallen nature. The so-called fallen nature is ours because we sin.
Christ will defeat death at the resurrection of his followers.
That is not true. Paul says that we die because of our own sins.
Your interpretation does not square with Paul's argument, as I pointed out earlier. Additionally, if atonement was applied universally, as you suggest, then there would be no reason for Paul to compare Christ to Adam. The fact that everyone is "in Adam" would go without saying as this condition is self-evident. The reason Paul compares Christ to Adam is to highlight the difference between the two. Not all human beings, who are in Adam, are also in Christ. Life is not granted universally.
Indeed, Christ selflessly surrendered His life for the sake of sinners, yet it is crucial to clarify that He did not offer this sacrifice for every individual sinner, as you assert. In the book of Romans, specifically in verses 1 through 5 of chapter 5, the Apostle Paul paints a vivid picture of a person who not only possesses faith in Christ but also demonstrates a resilience of spirit that allows their faith to endure through rigorous testing and trials. This steadfastness is a result of the Holy Spirit being richly poured into their hearts, providing an inner strength that sustains them. It is essential to recognize that not all individuals come to believe and place their trust in Christ. Furthermore, among those who do profess faith, not everyone remains steadfast; some may falter when faced with adversity and fail to persevere in their commitment to the faith.
I maintain that the phrase "all men" doesn't mean "each and every man" as you mistakenly think. I pointed out Paul's usage of two different terms in the same context: "the many" and "all men". The term "the many" refers to the Hebrew people, and "all men" refers to the rest of humanity. And Paul's point is not to identify which people among humanity are justified; his point is to highlight that Jesus is the only person in creation whom the Father chose to intercede on our behalf.
No, my comments pertain to physical death.
At this juncture, we aim to illuminate a more detailed understanding of the significance of Jesus' crucifixion. His death on the cross serves as the ultimate atoning sacrifice, a pivotal act that enables him to serve as our mediator before God. The foundation of God's forgiveness lies in the concept of propitiation; through this principle, God graciously responds to the intercession of Jesus on our behalf, acknowledging the profound satisfaction He finds in Jesus' perfect obedience to His will. For an individual to receive God's boundless mercy, Jesus must intercede for that person.
The good news unfolds a profound narrative about the divine promise of eternal life, revealing how and why God bestows the gift of everlasting existence upon those who place their faith in Jesus Christ and steadfastly uphold their belief until the end of their earthly journey. In the moment of ultimate judgment, Jesus will intercede on behalf of individuals, appealing to God's boundless mercy. This sacred exchange is rooted in the deep, abiding relationship between Jesus and God, founded on the immense pleasure God takes in Jesus' unwavering obedience and sacrifice. Through this heartfelt request, God grants mercy, highlighting the incredible love and forgiveness that define the essence of divine grace.
The necessity of intercession undermines the concept of universal salvation, as the sole prerequisite for universal salvation is God's desire to forgive everyone and grant them eternal life. Atonement is not necessary for forgiveness. God can forgive whomever he wants to forgive. The purpose of the atoning sacrifice is due to the fact that God has chosen to forgive an individual if that individual is contrite and honest about his sin. The logic of animal sacrifice is the predicate, "May what happened to this animal happen to me because of what I did." This is a contrite admission of guilt.
The essence of Jesus' sacrifice carries a unique significance. It compels the penitent individual to confront a profound truth: "May I endure what Jesus experienced, recognizing the depth of my own shortcomings and sins." This admission requires a spirit that is truly transformed, filled with humility, and a heart that is open and honest in its pursuit of Christ. Only those who sincerely follow Jesus and strive to walk in his illuminating path will genuinely confess their deserving of the same fate that befell Him. For these devoted followers, Christ stands as an advocate before the Father, interceding on their behalf for the promise of eternal life.
This statement does not encompass every individual. Consequently, it follows that Jesus will not serve as an advocate for all people. As a result, the experience of eternal life is not destined to be universal among humanity.
You are seeing something that isn't there.
I don't need to prove or show anything more than I have already. It has been so understood, believed by all Christians since the beginning. No one has changed the doctrine of the Incarnation and the texts of scripture that has supported it.
Not what scripture states. Rom 5:12 is quite clear that we inherit death from Adam. It is because we have that mortal nature that we sin. Also again, I Cor 15:21q-22 makes a clear statement. We all die in Adam, and we are all made alive by Christ. It does not say we all sin because of Adam. I Cor 15:56 also states it as such, The sting of death is sin
So you don't believe in heaven, nor hell. Where will you live in eternity because by your understanding Christ's resurrection is fruitless.
Again, I Cor 15:12-19, If the dead are not raised, then Christ is not risen either. At the resurrection, ALL THE DEAD will be raised, Everyone, no exclusion. All will be judged. Christ has already defeated death, He does not need to do it again at the end.
How many times do you die? I will only die once. Scripture also says we will die once Heb 9:27. One dies spiritually every time we sin, but is why Christ performed a sacrifice for sin, so that as High Priest He can forgive our sins when confess them.
It is not my interpretation. I don't make personal interpretations. This interpretation is what was taught to the early Christians by the Apostles and first century followers explained them in their writing. There were three Church Councils that defended what I have stated against several false teaching in the 3rd and 4th century.
Lif is granted to all human beings and the world. There would be no hell, actually there would be no heaven either without Christ being the Savior of the world.
And all the above would be futile without the Atonement of Christ. You're again addressing the purpose of the atonement. He offers the sacrifice to all men. He desires that all men be saved. Is God a liar?
I have never read anything in connection with atonement and Pauls use of these words differently than I used them.
Yes, a one time sacrifice for the sin of the world. I John 2:2. Without the sacrifice, He could not call all men to repentence. But the greater aspect of His atonement is the overcoming of death. Without giving man, the world life, his sacrifice for sin would be meaningless.
Nice testimonial. A good explanation regarding one's relationship with Christ.
However this is all meaningless if He did not first and foremost give life to the world to correct the fall. Your explanation leaves all mankind still under the curse of death permanently, both body and soul.
As to eternal existence. all men have it, Some will spend it in hell, others with Christ. But neither place would be necessary if Christ did not raise all men to life by His resurrection. We would return to dust forever.
It amazes me that many do not understand one of the greatest doctrines of historical significance, the Incarnation, as much as the Trinity. It is these two that makes Christianity unique from all other religions.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Without question, the Bible teaches about the incarnation. But the incarnation is a different topic. But you supplied verses, which you claim support the idea of universal salvation. They don't.
I disagree with the notion that Paul is endorsing certain traditional beliefs. While some religious systems promote the ideas of Original Sin, as seen in Catholicism, or Federal Headship from the Reformed tradition, I believe that is not what Paul is conveying in this context. We do not inherit anything from Adam aside from our biological traits, and these traits do not dictate our choices.
Paul assigns blame and guilt to each individual based on their own choices, not Adam's. Adam was responsible for being the first man to bring sin into the world, but as Paul says, "death spread to all men, BECAUSE ALL SINNED, not because Adam sinned.
The phrase "human nature" is frequently misunderstood. Many people interpret it as a deterministic label, suggesting that our behaviors are inherently driven by an innate essence or nature. However, this interpretation overlooks a crucial distinction. The term "nature" refers to the fundamental qualities, characteristics, or intrinsic properties that define what something truly is. In the context of human behavior, this means that our actions cannot simply be attributed to a fixed nature.
Instead of claiming that we engage in sinful behavior because we possess a so-called "sin nature," it's more accurate to say that we identify a "sin nature" because sinful actions have become habitual for us. This implies that our choices and patterns of behavior are not solely dictated by an unchangeable nature but are influenced by our experiences, decisions, and the environments we inhabit. In essence, it's our repeated actions and the habits we form that shape our character, rather than an intrinsic predisposition to certain behaviors.
On the contrary, our mortality is a result of our sin, not its cause. Sin leads to death.
Look at it again. Paul has marked out a subset of all those who are "in Adam" which he calls "in Christ." Only those who are members of this subgroup will be granted eternal life.
I agree. However, as Paul states in Romans 5, Adam was the prototype of human beings. We sin because that is who we are. We begin "in Adam" because left to our own efforts and thoughts, we will end up as he did.
I don't believe that people go to heaven or hell when they die. Paul says that the dead in Christ will rise from the grave.
I didn't say that Christ's resurrection was fruitless. I argued that the doctrine of universal salvation renders Christ's resurrection moot.
You misunderstand his point. The form of Paul's argument is the following: If the category is unreal, then an alleged member of the category is not real. This statement suggests that if the overarching category is deemed "unreal," any entity claiming membership in that category cannot truly exist or possess reality. It's a logical assertion tied to the nature of classification. In other words, if resurrection isn't a real thing, and since Christ is alleged to have been resurrected, then Christ's resurrection wasn't real. But, since Christ was resurrected, then resurrection is a real human experience.
Paul's argument doesn't hinge on the idea that resurrection must be a universal human experience.
Yes, Jesus Christ died for our sins, but as Paul argued in Romans 3, God displayed Jesus Christ on the cross publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. The atonement sacrifice was adequate for propitiation, but the propitiation is not effectuated until the final judgment when Christ advocates on our behalf. And Jesus doesn't advocate for everyone.
Well, that is your problem right there. I never read the Early Church Fathers or take for granted the so-called Church councils. Even if I did, I would not accept what they say uncritically as true.
What I said included the atonement of Christ. But Jesus never offers anything to anyone. Eternal life is the free gift of God to those who believe, and the number of people who believe and persevere is a limited number.
Okay, try reading Paul instead of so-called fathers and councils.
Take a look at Romans 5 and see if you find two distinct concepts: "the many" and "all men." Ask yourself what distinction Paul is making with those two categories. In my view, based on my study of the Bible, "the many" refers to God's people the Jews, and "all men" refers to the rest of humanity.
Contrary to common understanding, the purpose of the one-time sacrifice was not directly for the forgiveness of sins, but indirectly through the act of propitiation. According to Paul, the cross was a public demonstration of God's righteousness for propitiation. Logically, it appears as follows.
Cross (Atonement) -->> Propitiation -->> Intercession -->> forgiveness of sins, mercy, and eternal life. Without an offering, (blood) one can not please God (propitiation) and without propitiation, one can not intercede on behalf of the sinner.
Without intercession, one can not be forgiven; Without propitiation, one can not be an intercessor; Without an acceptable offering, the intercessor
In this context, the phrase "the whole world" refers not to individual persons like "each and every individual" but rather to broader groups that encompass diverse characteristics. It includes categories such as men and women, the affluent and the impoverished, as well as those who are enslaved and those who are free. This perspective emphasizes collective identities and societal divisions rather than focusing on singular experiences. John's point is to say that there is no category of persons who will be absent from those whom God is saving.
Jesus' victory over death takes place in the future when he raises his followers from the dead.
That would be true if his sacrifice was meant to directly effectuate pardon. But the purpose of his sacrifice was to effectuate propitiation so that Jesus's obedience is pleasing to God and mollifies his wrath against all those for whom Jesus intercedes. He doesn't intercede for everyone.
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