Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days and 2 future raptures separated by 1000 years+?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,161
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Premil teaches that there will be many fallen human beings in mortal bodies living on a millennial earth after the second coming who are distinguished from the immortals. They also argue many of these will be converted in their so-called future millennium. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

So, when do all the millennial mortal converts get glorified? Please give Scripture. Surely there needs to be another glorification of the "the mortal saints" after Satan's little season to make them fit and prepared for the eternal state? After all, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50).

Surely there needs to be another “day of redemption” after the “day of redemption” at the second coming (Luke 21:28, Romans 8:19-23 and Ephesians 1:13-14) in order to redeem the bodies of the millennial mortals that put their trust in Christ?
 
Last edited:

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,161
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Posttrib Premils are often sheepish about acknowledging that their theology requires 2 future raptures/resurrections. Pretrib Premils do not like to accept that their theology requires 3 future raptures/resurrections.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,161
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Op Note

Once again, Premils have no answers to the different holes in their position.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,718
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. They also argue many of these will be converted in their so-called future millennium. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

So, when do all the millennial mortal converts get glorified? Please give Scripture. Surely there needs to be another glorification of the "the mortal saints" after Satan's little season to make them fit and prepared for the eternal state? After all, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50).

Surely there needs to be another “day of redemption” after the “day of redemption” at the second coming (Luke 21:28, Romans 8:19-23 and Ephesians 1:13-14) in order to redeem the bodies of the millennial mortals that put their trust in Christ?
Great points. Surely, the mortal saints of the imaginary future millennium would need another last trumpet to sound at which point they would be changed to have immortal bodies. They would need another "last day" after the last day when Christ returns. But, scripture is silent on that. Why? Because it's not going to happen.

As usual, when we present irrefutable arguments like you did here, we get no response. I take that as an admission from Premils that they know what you said here is true and have nothing to refute it. But, they are unteachable and will continue to believe in their false doctrine regardless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,161
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Great points. Surely, the mortal saints of the imaginary future millennium would need another last trumpet to sound at which point they would be changed to have immortal bodies. They would need another "last day" after the last day when Christ returns. But, scripture is silent on that. Why? Because it's not going to happen.

As usual, when we present irrefutable arguments like you did here, we get no response. I take that as an admission from Premils that they know what you said here is true and have nothing to refute it. But, they are unteachable and will continue to believe in their false doctrine regardless.
You would think that would cause them to abandon their error. They recognize what we see but refuse to let go of it. Avoidance is a major Premil weapon.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,718
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You would think that would cause them to abandon their error. They recognize what we see but refuse to let go of it. Avoidance is a major Premil weapon.
When someone believes what they want to believe, as most Premills do, there isn't much you can do to convince them to change their minds. You'd have to change their minds from believing what they want to being willing to believe what scripture teaches no matter whether it agrees with what they want to happen or not.

The Pharisees wanted the Messiah to come and then destroy their enemies (the Roman empire) immediately. So, that's what they believed would happen. Nothing could change their minds because their desire to see what they wanted to happen come to fruition trumped their desire to just accept what scripture teaches.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Zao is life

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,161
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When someone believes what they want to believe, as most Premills do, there isn't much you can do to convince them to change their minds. You'd have to change their minds from believing what they want to being willing to believe what scripture teaches no matter whether it agrees with what they want to happen or not.

The Pharisees wanted the Messiah to come and then destroy their enemies (the Roman empire) immediately. So, that's what they believed would happen. Nothing could change their minds because their desire to see what they wanted to happen come to fruition trumped their desire to just accept what scripture teaches.

True. There are similarities.
 

TrevorHL

Member
Jul 17, 2024
199
55
28
81
New South Wales / Lake Macquarie
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Greetings WPM,
Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals.
It is obvious from the following that when Jesus returns to sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years surrounded by the immortal faithful, that there will be mortals who have survived Armageddon and they will be subjected and voluntarily seek to learn the ways of God during the 1000 years.

Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?
The New Heaven and Earth is figurative language speaking of a new era with a new order of things. Compare the same language in Isaiah 65:17-25 which speaks about the passing away of the present order and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, and even in this passage it speaks of the mortals during the 1000 years.

Isaiah 65:17-25 (KJV): 17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


Kind regards
Trevor
 
Last edited:

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,718
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Greetings WPM,

It is obvious from the following that when Jesus returns to sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years surrounded by the immortal faithful, that there will be mortals who have survived Armageddon and they will be subjected and voluntarily seek to learn the ways of God during the 1000 years.

Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


The New Heaven and Earth is figurative language speaking of a new era with a new order of things. Compare the same language in Isaiah 65:17-25 which speaks about the passing away of the present order and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, and even in this passage it speaks of the mortals during the 1000 years.

Isaiah 65:17-25 (KJV): 17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


Kind regards
Trevor
Can you please address the questions asked in the original post?

WPM said:
So, when do all the millennial mortal converts get glorified? Please give Scripture. Surely there needs to be another glorification of the "the mortal saints" after Satan's little season to make them fit and prepared for the eternal state? After all, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50).

Surely there needs to be another “day of redemption” after the “day of redemption” at the second coming (Luke 21:28, Romans 8:19-23 and Ephesians 1:13-14) in order to redeem the bodies of the millennial mortals that put their trust in Christ?
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,718
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Greetings WPM,

It is obvious from the following that when Jesus returns to sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years surrounded by the immortal faithful, that there will be mortals who have survived Armageddon and they will be subjected and voluntarily seek to learn the ways of God during the 1000 years.

Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Notice here that this is all related to "the last days". Scripture says the last days is the time period between the first coming and the second coming of Christ, so why do you try to apply this passage to a time after His return?

Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.


Can you see here that the last days had already begun before the day of Pentecost and included the day of Pentecost?

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Jude 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Can you see here that the last days refers to the time period during which people scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming which was already happening long ago and is still happening today? Once He comes, people won't be scoffing any more, so the last days will be over at that point.

So, you should see that taking Isaiah 2:1-4 as literally as you are and applying it to the wrong time period contradicts other scripture. Look at that Acts 2 passage again that I quoted above. Peter was quoting from Joel 2:28-32 there. If we didn't know any better, we would think it's saying that God would pout out His Spirit in literally all people since it says He would pour out His Spirit on all people. But, of course, we know that He only pours out His Spirit on all believers, not all people. Isaiah 2:1-4 should similarly be only applied to believers and not literally all people.


The New Heaven and Earth is figurative language speaking of a new era with a new order of things. Compare the same language in Isaiah 65:17-25 which speaks about the passing away of the present order and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, and even in this passage it speaks of the mortals during the 1000 years.

Isaiah 65:17-25 (KJV): 17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


Kind regards
Trevor
Why are you interpreting that passage in such a way that contradicts what John wrote about the new heavens and new earth?

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

John was very clear that there will be no more death in the new earth, so do you think he didn't know what he was talking about? Do you think he wasn't aware of what is written in Isaiah 65:17-25? You said yourself that Isaiah 65:17-25 is figurative language and that is correct. But Revelation 21:4 is not figurative. Why can't you recognize that Isaiah was describing no more death in verse 20 in a figurative way? A 100 year old child? That's clearly figurative. A 100 year old is not a child. Is that really saying that there will be 100 year old children who die on the new earth? Of course not. That was a figurative way of saying that even after 100 years going by in eternity (if there was actually time in eternity) a child would still be a child because no one will age in eternity.

Notice what it says in Isaiah 65:18-19. No more weeping and crying. Just like it says in Revelation 21:4. Do you think that people will die during this supposed future thousand year time period and no one will mourn their deaths? That would be ridiculous, right? So, how do ou reconcile your understanding of Isaiah 65:20 with what it says in Revelation 65:18-19 and what it says in Revelation 21:4?

And how about 2 Peter 3:13 which says the new heavens and new earth will be a place "whwerein dwelleth righteousness". Why would Peter have said that if it will be a place where wickedness also dwells? That would make 2 Peter 3:13 pointless. He clearly implied that the new heavens and new earth would be a place where only righteousness dwells.
 
Last edited:

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,718
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Greetings WPM,

It is obvious from the following that when Jesus returns to sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years surrounded by the immortal faithful, that there will be mortals who have survived Armageddon and they will be subjected and voluntarily seek to learn the ways of God during the 1000 years.
I have a couple more questions for you.

Do you have those mortals who embrace the ways of God and believe in Jesus inheriting the kingdom of God during that time?

How do any mortals survive Armageddon in light of what it says here:

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written King of kings and Lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.

This shows Jesus destroying "all people, free and slave, great and small" at that time. How does that allow for any mortal survivors?
 
  • Like
Reactions: WPM

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,161
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Greetings WPM,

It is obvious from the following that when Jesus returns to sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years surrounded by the immortal faithful, that there will be mortals who have survived Armageddon and they will be subjected and voluntarily seek to learn the ways of God during the 1000 years.

Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


The New Heaven and Earth is figurative language speaking of a new era with a new order of things. Compare the same language in Isaiah 65:17-25 which speaks about the passing away of the present order and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, and even in this passage it speaks of the mortals during the 1000 years.

Isaiah 65:17-25 (KJV): 17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


Kind regards
Trevor
Lol, so your future millennium is "the last days," the millennium and "the NHNE"? This shows how messed up Premil is. Because you have no corroboration elsewhere you have to dump all these into your supposed future millennium.

What is more, you did not even address any of my points. Welcome to Premil!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,718
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Lol, so your future millennium is "the last days," the millennium and "the NHNE"? This shows how messed up Premil is. Because you have no corroboration elsewhere you have to dump all these into your supposed future millennium.

What is more, you did not even address any of my points. Welcome to Premil!
It's incredible how every Premil without exception avoids specifically addressing our points. I wonder why that is? Could it be because they can't refute our points? I believe so.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,161
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's incredible how every Premil without exception avoids specifically addressing our points. I wonder why that is? Could it be because they can't refute our points? I believe so.
I know. It is not biblical.
 

TrevorHL

Member
Jul 17, 2024
199
55
28
81
New South Wales / Lake Macquarie
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Greetings again WPM,
Lol, so your future millennium is "the last days," the millennium and "the NHNE"? This shows how messed up Premil is. Because you have no corroboration elsewhere you have to dump all these into your supposed future millennium.
The two quotes that I stated are sufficient to establish pre-millenniumism. Add also Zechariah 14 and Malachi 4 and you have bookends to numerous prophecies, summarised by Peter in Acts 3:19-21 with his additional comment "in ALL the prophets".
What is more, you did not even address any of my points. Welcome to Premil!
Your theme is to discredit pre-millenniumism and yet you will not properly consider these prophecies. Perhaps when I have more time I will try to untangle your convoluted concepts.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,161
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Greetings again WPM,

The two quotes that I stated are sufficient to establish pre-millenniumism. Add also Zechariah 14 and Malachi 4 and you have bookends to numerous prophecies, summarised by Peter in Acts 3:19-21 with his additional comment "in ALL the prophets".

Your theme is to discredit pre-millenniumism and yet you will not properly consider these prophecies. Perhaps when I have more time I will try to untangle your convoluted concepts.

Kind regards
Trevor
Premil discredits itself. You are forcing texts that relate to the here-and-now - the last days (Isa 2 and Micah 4)- into your imaginary future millennium. You do the same to the NHNE (Isa 65), which arrives after the millennium. Your doctrine is an elaborate manipulation. Amil alone adds up.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,718
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Greetings again WPM,

The two quotes that I stated are sufficient to establish pre-millenniumism.
No, they absolutely are not. Please address my post #11.

Add also Zechariah 14 and Malachi 4 and you have bookends to numerous prophecies, summarised by Peter in Acts 3:19-21 with his additional comment "in ALL the prophets".
Tell me how you interpret Zechariah 14. Do you believe in future animal sacrifices?

How do you think Malachi 4 supports Premill?

Your theme is to discredit pre-millenniumism and yet you will not properly consider these prophecies.
Who told you that he doesn't consider those prophecies? Why won't you address the questions he asked in the original post? Where is the scripture which speaks of the bodily redemption of those who would die in the supposed future earthly millennial kingdom? Surely, scripture would mention it if such a thing was going to happen.
 

TrevorHL

Member
Jul 17, 2024
199
55
28
81
New South Wales / Lake Macquarie
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Greetings again WPM and Spiritual Israelite,
Once again, Premils have no answers to the different holes in their position.
As usual, when we present irrefutable arguments like you did here, we get no response.
I did not respond to the detail as I was busy. I briefly posted at 7:29 AM and 11:56 AM during a busy Saturday morning here in NSW Australia. I will attempt to respond to some of this detail now, possibly late evening New York time 12:30 PM and evening California time 9:30 PM. My next available time will be after 6 PM Sunday.
Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. They also argue many of these will be converted in their so-called future millennium.
Yes.
Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss?
This is superimposing events from the start of the 1000 years to the end of the 1000 years. Such logic is not valid. I do not accept the "rapture" as often advocated.
After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?
Not sure why you claim this. The transition between the end of the 1000 years and the period beyond will be relatively smooth despite the rebellion mentioned. There will be another "New Heaven and Earth", but this is again symbolic language. The earth will endure, inhabited by both the faithful from before the 1000 years and those numerous faithful gleaned throughout the 1000 year reign of Jesus, possibility a greater harvest than from the first 6000 years.
So, when do all the millennial mortal converts get glorified? Please give Scripture. Surely there needs to be another glorification of the "the mortal saints" after Satan's little season to make them fit and prepared for the eternal state? After all, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50).
I do not know why you ask this. There will be a judgement of these millennial mortals at the end of the 1000 years and many will be accepted and possibly a small minority rejected.
Surely there needs to be another “day of redemption” after the “day of redemption” at the second coming (Luke 21:28, Romans 8:19-23 and Ephesians 1:13-14) in order to redeem the bodies of the millennial mortals that put their trust in Christ?
No problem here whatsoever:
Luke 21:28 (KJV): And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Romans 8:19–23 (KJV): 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (KJV):13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Posttrib Premils are often sheepish about acknowledging that their theology requires 2 future raptures/resurrections. Pretrib Premils do not like to accept that their theology requires 3 future raptures/resurrections.
I am not sure how you define Posttrib Premils and Pretrib Premils and I am not sure of what category represents my position. Yes I believe in 2 fut
ure resurrections, one at the return of Christ covering the "responsible" (not all mankind Daniel 12:1-3) who have lived during the first 6000 years and one at the end of the 1000 years for those who have died during the 1000 years. I do not accept the so-called "rapture" at the beginning of the 1000 years and the circumstances are different at the end of the 1000 years.
Great points. Surely, the mortal saints of the imaginary future millennium would need another last trumpet to sound at which point they would be changed to have immortal bodies. They would need another "last day" after the last day when Christ returns. But, scripture is silent on that. Why? Because it's not going to happen.
Not much to respond to here. There is not much detail about the events at the end of the 1000 years, but why both of you insist that this detail must be a repetition of what happens at the beginning of the 1000 years does not seem at all valid.
Notice here that this is all related to "the last days". Scripture says the last days is the time period between the first coming and the second coming of Christ, so why do you try to apply this passage to a time after His return?
The last days mentioned in Isaiah 2:1-4 relate to the events surrounding the second coming of Jesus. There will be no more war as a result of the reestablishment of the Throne of David in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 2:1-4 should similarly be only applied to believers and not literally all people.
I do not see that the detail supports your assessment here. Also the parallel passage in Micah 4:1-8 also contains detail about the restoration and conversion of natural Israel.
Why are you interpreting that passage in such a way that contradicts what John wrote about the new heavens and new earth?
The "New Heavens and Earth" of Isaiah 65:17-25 apply to the new order of things at the beginning of the 1000 years, while Revelation 21 speaks of the end of the 1000 years.
John was very clear that there will be no more death in the new earth, so do you think he didn't know what he was talking about? Do you think he wasn't aware of what is written in Isaiah 65:17-25? You said yourself that Isaiah 65:17-25 is figurative language and that is correct.
The new heaven and earth are figurative, but the detail of death in Isaiah 65:17-25 is literal and "no death" in Revelation 21 is also literal.
Do you have those mortals who embrace the ways of God and believe in Jesus inheriting the kingdom of God during that time?
They inhabit the earth during their mortality. Their hope of immortality will be future at the end of the 1000 years.
This shows Jesus destroying "all people, free and slave, great and small" at that time. How does that allow for any mortal survivors?
I need to balance the "all" here with Isaiah 2:1-4 where it speaks of some beating their swords into ploughs.
Tell me how you interpret Zechariah 14.
This is very clear in the detail of the nations before and during the 1000 years.
Do you believe in future animal sacrifices?
Yes, as a teaching medium, looking back to Christ and his sacrifice.
How do you think Malachi 4 supports Premill?
It speaks of the return of Jesus and events leading up to the full establishment of the Kingdom.

I have answered most of these questions while consuming a very nice fish that my son caught this morning. No tariffs on this fish.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

PS95

Well-Known Member
Jun 16, 2024
1,015
631
113
Eastern Shore
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Greetings again WPM,

The two quotes that I stated are sufficient to establish pre-millenniumism. Add also Zechariah 14 and Malachi 4 and you have bookends to numerous prophecies, summarised by Peter in Acts 3:19-21 with his additional comment "in ALL the prophets".

Your theme is to discredit pre-millenniumism and yet you will not properly consider these prophecies. Perhaps when I have more time I will try to untangle your convoluted concepts.

Kind regards
Trevor
Hi Trevor,
I didn't know that Christadelphians were in agreement with this mainstream disp pre-trib eschatology. But then again, JWs and you guys share commonalities and JWs also believe in a secret rapture but theirs already supposedly happened in 1919. Do you also believe in 2 2nd comings like Jws and pre-tribbers do here?

@Spiritual Israelite @WPM
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scott Downey