Barna Poll: Most Americans - Including Church Members - Reject the Trinity

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Matthias

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Because in the english, Like with many other words.

A word can be plural and singular

That’s true in Hebrew too.

Elohim is a Hebrew word which is always plural in form, but can be either singular or plural in meaning. The context it is used in is critical to our being able to understand which is meant.

When it is plural in meaning it is always translated ”gods”. When it is singular in meaning it is always translated “god”.

The elohim of Moses is singular, not plural. Every English translation of the Bible renders it singular, not plural.

Confirmation that elohim is singular, not plural, is found in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.

and again, I have one God. who is 3 in person.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I‘m trying to understand why a trinitarian might think a Jewish monotheist who lived in the 14th century B.C. would think of his God not as a Jewish monotheist would but as a trinitarian would.
Maybe listen to what My defenition of trinity is

1 God (not three)
3 Persons

Moses wrote (in Genesis 1:27) that God created man in his image, not in their image.
in verse 26, And God (Elohim literally the Gods)
let us make - nase(h) - Make manufacture do. verb first person plural
vs 27, So God (elohime, literally The Gods)
His image (singular

again

one God. three persons (us)

I take your point that Moses believed what he wrote. He wouldn’t have written it if he didn’t believe it.
yes.
 

Matthias

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Elohim is plural for one God.

What Hebrew Lexicons report is that elohim is singular for one God, or god.

Elohim is only plural in scripture when the subject is a grouping of pagan deities, or a grouping of angels, or a grouping of human beings.

The translation by Tyndale, and the King James crew, they rendered it LORD, to appease Jewish leaders and not use the name of God at that time, since Elohim is in the first Chapter of Genisis and the second Chapter changed to Adonai Elohim, which is Yahweh.
 

Eternally Grateful

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That’s true in Hebrew too.

Elohim is a Hebrew word which is always plural in form, but can be either singular or plural in meaning. The context it is used in is critical to our being able to understand which is meant.
In Genesis the word is written in this case and tense

Elohim - God, god, diety Noun Common Masculine PLURAL absolute.
When it is plural in meaning it is always translated ”gods”. When it is singular in meaning it is always translated “god”.
Translation is according to a persons belief system.. I again look to the word itself. if the word says it is written in plural. I take that as Gospel..
The elohim of Moses is singular, not plural. Every English translation of the Bible renders it singular, not plural.
ENGLISH

there you go..

Again, It is not talking about Pegan GODS or dieties

it is talking about the one true God. who is three in person.
Confirmation that elohim is singular, not plural, is found in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.
lol

Ok whatever..

again, it does not matter

ONE GOD.. that is what they believed

THREE IN PERSON

The bible says it is through Jesus that all things were mad, so if the father made all things through Christ.. Then WE fits perfectly well
 

Eternally Grateful

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What Hebrew Lexicons report is that elohim is singular for one God, or god.

Elohim is only plural in scripture when the subject is a grouping of pagan deities, or a grouping of angels, or a grouping of human beings.
I am done

People will see what they want to see

Good day sir
 

Matthias

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Maybe listen to what My defenition of trinity is

1 God (not three)
3 Persons

I’ve heard you. I understand that is an essential part of trinitarian theology.

in verse 26, And God (Elohim literally the Gods)

Elohim isn’t literally “the Gods”. That would be more than one God - and that by definition is polytheism.

By definition, neither Jewish monotheists nor trinitarians are polytheists.

let us make - nase(h) - Make manufacture do. verb first person plural

That’s fine.

vs 27, So God (elohime, literally The Gods)

I don’t believe in “the Gods” and trinitarianism doesn’t affirm belief in “the Gods”.

His image (singular

“His image” (singular), not “their image” (plural).

again

one God. three persons (us)


yes.
 

Wrangler

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1 God (not three)
3 Persons
Do you know what an inherent contradiction is? The history of the trinity doctrine shows contradiction.

This is in comparison to scientific evolution. The example from high school was the speed of light. Aristotle measured it as instantaneous. Over time, more precise measurements became possible with the accepted value asymptomatically trending toward today's accepted value. The trend has no contradictions, where they previously measured the speed slower, then faster, then slower again.

Not sure why you are determined to turn this thread into a theological debate thread rather than a history discussion. I'll bow out now.
 

Matthias

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In Genesis the word is written in this case and tense

Elohim - God, god, diety

All singular.

All plural - Gods, gods, deities.

Noun Common Masculine PLURAL absolute.

Yes. It is what scholars call “intensive”, or “a plural of majesty”.

Translation is according to a persons belief system..

That is called “translator bias”.

I again look to the word itself. if the word says it is written in plural. I take that as Gospel..

ENGLISH

In English it is written in singular. Trinitarianism wouldn’t have gotten far if it had taught that the Trinity is ”the Gods”.


there you go..

Again, It is not talking about Pegan GODS or dieties

That’s right.

it is talking about the one true God.

Yes.

who is three in person.

That isn’t what a Jewish monotheist would think or say. Moses is a Jew.

lol

Ok whatever..

again, it does not matter

ONE GOD.. that is what they believed

THREE IN PERSON

The bible says it is through Jesus that all things were mad, so if the father made all things through Christ.. Then WE fits perfectly well

The one God of Jewish monotheism - Jewish monotheism is unitarian, not trinitarian - is what they believed.

The story of Christianity is story of how the church gradually moved from the Jewish monotheism of Israel to trinitarianism. That movement, a theological shift, has a well-documented history.
 
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JohnDB

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That’s true in Hebrew too.

Elohim is a Hebrew word which is always plural in form, but can be either singular or plural in meaning. The context it is used in is critical to our being able to understand which is meant.

When it is plural in meaning it is always translated ”gods”. When it is singular in meaning it is always translated “god”.

The elohim of Moses is singular, not plural. Every English translation of the Bible renders it singular, not plural.

Confirmation that elohim is singular, not plural, is found in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.
Hebrew language does NOT contain a bunch of nouns.
It is a verb based metaphoric language and has a pictographic and phonetic alphabet.

We speak and tend to think in English which is a noun based language. Every verb metaphor translated is made into a noun....but it just is not. Not even the plural ones.
 

RLT63

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"He (Barna) lamented, “We know from our national worldview tracking studies that most Americans are uninformed about the many essential biblical teachings, ranging from the Ten Commandments and the Trinity, to matters related to repentance, salvation, the chief purpose of life, and divine measures of success.”

“It could be argued that the primary theologians influencing the spiritual views of America these days are figures such as Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, Russell Brand, Jordan Peterson, Megyn Kelly, and Bill Maher” — all influential podcasters and not religious figures."
You'll probably find that there are a lot of Christians who are not familiar with the Nicene Creed
 
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Matthias

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Trinitarianism doesn’t deny that a shift in theology occurred. It asserts that such a transition took place. It documents that it happened. This is simple and straightforward church history. Non-trinitarians should know it, should accept it; not dispute it. The same, I’m calling for, goes for trinitarians.

I would contribute the following on behalf of outstanding trinitarian scholarship.

”Jesus, in his teaching, his prophetic actions, and in the obedience which led to his death, was acting as God’s agent and representative on earth. It was as if, when he spoke and acted, God himself was present. In Luke’s phrase, ‘God was with him’; in Paul’s, ‘God was in Christ’. That this was so had been demonstrated by the resurrection, after which Jesus had necessarily been given the highest place, under God, which could be awarded to any living being. Christians could now confidently join in the worship and praise due to the one who had been given (again under God) a name which is above every name, and through whom the Holy Spirit was now active among those who acknowledged his lordship. It was as far as one could possibly go (these Christians felt) in ascribing unique dignity to Jesus consistently with respecting the constraint of monotheism. In later times the church, no longer perceiving the power and decisiveness of the agent-son-representative model, and having among its members men used to a more philosophical analysis, felt it necessary to go further in the direction of metaphysical identity between Jesus and his heavenly father: released from the constraint of Jewish monotheism, gentile Christians began to to think of Jesus as also, in some sense God.”


(A.E. Harvey, Jesus and the Constraints of History, p. 173)

Bold is mine.

The trinitarian recognizes and acknowledges my place - the place of Jewish monotheism - on the Church timeline without attacking or undermining his historical orthodox trinitarianism. He is giving us basic church / Christian history.
 
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Matthias

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Hebrew language does NOT contain a bunch of nouns.
It is a verb based metaphoric language and has a pictographic and phonetic alphabet.

We speak and tend to think in English which is a noun based language. Every verb metaphor translated is made into a noun....but it just is not. Not even the plural ones.

When trinitarians read scripture they see and understand nouns. Right?
 

RLT63

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I‘m trying to understand why a trinitarian might think a Jewish monotheist who lived in the 14th century B.C. would think of his God not as a Jewish monotheist would but as a trinitarian would.



Moses wrote (in Genesis 1:27) that God created man in his image, not in their image.

I take your point that Moses believed what he wrote. He wouldn’t have written it if he didn’t believe it.
Genesis 1:26
26 ¶ Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, ....
 

Matthias

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You'll probably find that there are a lot of Christians who are not familiar with the Nicene Creed

That’s true. (It was the case with me growing up in the Southern Baptist Church.) I would like to rectify that. Would doing so harm trinitarians? I don’t think so. Would doing so harm non-trinitarians? Again, I don’t think so.

Why would a trinitarian not support that?

That is what I was exploring with @Eternally Grateful. He provided us with an answer, and I appreciate that he did. My thought upon hearing it centered on what Nicene affirming Christians might think about his answer.
 

Matthias

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Genesis 1:26
26 ¶ Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, ....

How would a Jewish monotheist understand the passage? It wouldn’t be in the same way that a trinitarian might understand it. (The commentary in NET is helpful for us on that.)

Moses is a Jewish monotheist. That is a constraint of history.

That is why I asked @Eternally Grateful if he believed Moses was a trinitarian - many, many centuries before the church developed and affirmed orthodox trinitarianism.
 

RLT63

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How would a Jewish monotheist understand the passage? It wouldn’t be in the same way that a trinitarian might understand it. (The commentary in NET is helpful for us on that.)

Moses is a Jewish monotheist. That is a constraint of history.
If you don't believe in the Trinity you would probably say that God is including the angels when he says us and our, but that would contradict the next verse

27 ¶ God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.
 

Matthias

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If you don't believe in the Trinity you would probably say that God is including the angels when he says us and our

There are also those who do believe in the Trinity and say that God is including the angelic court when he says us and our. It is a concession that they make to Jewish monotheism and the constraint of history.
 

JohnDB

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When trinitarians read scripture they see and understand nouns. Right?
Who are you talking about?

English is full of nouns....

However, we shouldn't try nailing jello.

Scriptural "names" are not tags like Tom, Dick, & Harry....they are descriptive titles.
ALWAYS.
 

RLT63

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There are also those who do believe in the Trinity and say that God is including the angelic court when he says us and our. It is a concession that they make to Jewish monotheism and the constraint of history.
But that contradicts the next verse