The end of the world, as taught by Christ, separates the wicked from the just at the harvest, and it is coming for you.

[Scott Downey]

And guess what those translations support? Reigning with Christ a thousand years. Too bad Amils can't apply any of that to when their proposed millennium is meaning. You would think Revelation 3:21, for one, should be coming to mind.

What I'm arguing is that they don't sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel all throughout eternity, nor do they do this for only one day. Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days following the last day of this age.

At least these translations show that they begin sitting on 12 thrones once Christ has returned, rather than before He returns. And this presents a problem for Amil unless this is meaning all throughout eternity they do this. Except we know it can't be meaning all throughout eternity since that would contradict the following, for one.


1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


And once again, it is beyond absurd that they only sit on these 12 thrones for just one day, meaning the same day Christ returns. Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days after the last day of this age. Per Premil this is not an issue whatsoever. BTW, this doesn't mean I think 12 literal thrones are involved or something. That is irrelevant in regards to the points I'm attempting to make. Which mainly have to do with how much time are they allotted to do these things, sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Amil has no answer for that, Premil does.

I DID NOT SAY they sat on thrones just one day. I said One Day for the Day of Judgment by Christ of eternal life or death in the Lake of Fire..

Going on ignore now.
See after a while you realize conversation is useless and no point in continuing. I view it as brushing the dust off my feet and moving forward.

I am not into furthering contentions and dissentions, or heresies, all works of the flesh. Which is what eventually happens with opponents.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I do agree with Jesus spiritually dwelling in us, the point I was making was that I can claim there was a coming of Jesus at anytime I want using your logic.

You don’t seem to understand that once you accept a certain method of interpretation we should be able to apply that method elsewhere. You disagree with a 70AD coming yet I can show it as a possibility using your hermeneutics.

Nonsense. I can show where Jesus said He would come to dwell in us spiritually. Where does it say that He would come to destroy Jerusalem?

You are a master at changing your method of interpretation to support a position then denying anyone else from using that same method of interpretation to support their position.

This foolish comment shows that you don't even understand my method of interpretation.

Of course context matters. The context of the parable was the kingdom of heaven and you have added a second kingdom to that context to make it work for you.

The context talks about "His field". Since He said the field represented "the world", then it makes it "His world". Does that not mean He is the King of the world, making the world His kingdom in that sense? I'm not trying to make anything work for me, I'm going by what Jesus actually said.

When I add a coming in 70AD that changed the context according to you. You can change the context but I’m not allowed to change the context.

Where does it say He would come in 70 AD? Again, I can show where He said He would come to dwell spiritually in people. Where is the scripture which says He would come to destroy Jerusalem?

Apparently those who have agreed with your post also agree with this kind of thinking.

This kind of thinking has to do with taking scripture in context, so it makes sense that I wouldn't be the only one to do that.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Since the angels gather out of the kingdom all that offend and do iniquity, how did the tares get into the kingdom of God in the first place? Did they lose their salvation?

Some did, and some were just playing like they were believers

Let go of your old ideas and look at the things taught in the New Testament is my advice.

Yep, we should read the Old Testament in light of the greater revelation given by the Lord in the New Testament.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And guess what those translations support? Reigning with Christ a thousand years. Too bad Amils can't apply any of that to when their proposed millennium is meaning. You would think Revelation 3:21, for one, should be coming to mind.

Who told you we can't apply that to our understanding of the the thousand years?

What I'm arguing is that they don't sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel all throughout eternity, nor do they do this for only one day.

And your proof of this is....where?

Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days following the last day of this age.

At least these translations show that they begin sitting on 12 thrones once Christ has returned, rather than before He returns. And this presents a problem for Amil unless this is meaning all throughout eternity they do this. Except we know it can't be meaning all throughout eternity since that would contradict the following, for one.

Why can't they be doing it for the same amount of time it takes for Him to judge (if it took place in the realm of time)? How long do you think the judgment will take, anyway? Since you believe in multiple judgments, I mean the one referenced in Matthew 25:31-46. I assume you believe that is the judgment when they will sit on 12 thrones while Christ sits on His throne to judge? Where does it indicate that they will sit on the 12 thrones to do anything but assist in the judgment in some way?

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


And once again, it is beyond absurd that they only sit on these 12 thrones for just one day, meaning the same day Christ returns.

I believe the judgment occurs in the realm of eternity rather than time. If there is time in eternity, then the judgment would take a long time and they would sit on the thrones for however long the judgment takes.

Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days after the last day of this age. Per Premil this is not an issue whatsoever. BTW, this doesn't mean I think 12 literal thrones are involved or something. That is irrelevant in regards to the points I'm attempting to make. Which mainly have to do with how much time are they allotted to do these things, sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Amil has no answer for that, Premil does.

LOL. You mean your straw man has no answer for that. But Amil does.

 

[Davidpt]

Where does it indicate that they will sit on the 12 thrones to do anything but assist in the judgment in some way?

Any of the passages that involve Christ judging and sentencing ppl, such as Matthew 25 and Revelation 20, or any other ones that you can think of , can you point out in the text where you see anyone doing what I quoted from your post above?

 

[Davidpt]

Going on ignore now.

I won't be losing any sleep over it since it's not possible to reason with you to begin with.

 

[Davidpt]

The tares got into the kingdom under the old covenant. Under the new covenant only believers are allowed to enter the kingdom. When the old covenant age finally came to an end the tares were removed at that time.

In the agricultural world, apparently tares resemble wheat in the early stages. It is then a matter of, what does the wheat symbolize in the parable? Because that is who the tares appear to be masquerading as, the wheat. Matthew 7 should come to mind here, meaning for anyone that has any level of discernment, plus considers context, since ch 7 mentions wolves in sheep's clothing, for instance.

In context the tares do not represent all of the lost, such as some interpret it be meaning. It is because it makes nonsense out of the text, for example, take atheists, how they can resemble wheat in the early stages or at any stage? Total nonsense. If Jesus is using real world imagery to make a point, when we then interpret these things they have to agree with the real world examples, otherwise it is plain absurd, thus totally pointless, as to why Jesus even used real world imagery to begin with. A lot of interpreters just can't seem to grasp this, probably because of doctrinal bias', therefore, they continue to interpret some of these passages out of context rather than in context.

 

[grafted branch]

In context the tares do not represent all of the lost, such as some interpret it be meaning. It is because it makes nonsense out of the text, for example, take atheists, how they can resemble wheat in the early stages or at any stage? Total nonsense.

I completely agree, it makes absolutely no sense to have the tares represent all the lost. If that were the case then they should be thinking that people like Hitler should’ve never have been fought against, we should’ve let him grow together with the wheat.

Another thing I’ve seen the Amils point out is that most Premils have sins, death, and unsaved in their millennial kingdom yet apparently, based on their interpretation of this parable, they themselves also have all those same things in their kingdom.

I honestly don’t know who they think they’re kidding, the hypocrisy stands out loud and clear.

Oh yeah, one other thing, since the parable says the servants aren’t supposed to pull up the tares lest they also root up the wheat, it’s the height of hypocrisy when they try to root out any other interpretation of the parable that they disagree with.

 

[grafted branch]

Some did, and some were just playing like they were believers

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Are you implying that a person who just plays like they are a believer is actually born of water and Spirit? And that’s how they get into the kingdom?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Any of the passages that involve Christ judging and sentencing ppl, such as Matthew 25 and Revelation 20, or any other ones that you can think of , can you point out in the text where you see anyone doing what I quoted from your post above?

I don't know what you were intending to say here. You are saying those passages have them on the thrones doing something besides judging? If so, what would that be exactly?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the agricultural world, apparently tares resemble wheat in the early stages. It is then a matter of, what does the wheat symbolize in the parable? Because that is who the tares appear to be masquerading as, the wheat. Matthew 7 should come to mind here, meaning for anyone that has any level of discernment, plus considers context, since ch 7 mentions wolves in sheep's clothing, for instance.

In context the tares do not represent all of the lost, such as some interpret it be meaning. It is because it makes nonsense out of the text, for example, take atheists, how they can resemble wheat in the early stages or at any stage? Total nonsense. If Jesus is using real world imagery to make a point, when we then interpret these things they have to agree with the real world examples, otherwise it is plain absurd, thus totally pointless, as to why Jesus even used real world imagery to begin with. A lot of interpreters just can't seem to grasp this, probably because of doctrinal bias', therefore, they continue to interpret some of these passages out of context rather than in context.

There is doctrinal bias written all over everything you're saying here. Nowhere does Jesus Himself say that the tares represent those who are masquerading as the wheat. That came only from your imagination. Jesus said that the field represents the world and that the tares represent "the children of the wicked one" (Matthew 13:38). So, the tares represent all of the children of the wicked one in the world. All unbelievers in the world are the children of the wicked one, including the atheists you mentioned. Jesus Himself said not long before speaking that parable, "He who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30). Jesus looked at all people as being in two groups: those who are with Him and those who are against Him. The wheat represent "the children of the kingdom" who are with Him and the tares represent "the children of the wicked one" who are against Him.

How do you interpret this similar parable:

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't know what you were intending to say here. You are saying those passages have them on the thrones doing something besides judging? If so, what would that be exactly?

If your position is, that when they are sitting on these thrones equals them assisting Christ judging others, what passages support that? Take Matthew 25, for instance. Where you take that to also be meaning the GWTJ. If per your view, all of the saved since the beginning of time through the end of time, are on His right, and all of the lost are on His left, how then does that equal any of the saved assisting Him in His judgments when they themselves are being judged? IOW, how can they be being judged and assisting Him in His judging at the same time?

 

[Davidpt]

Who told you we can't apply that to our understanding of the the thousand years?

You are not making sense here or you totally misunderstood my point. My point was in regards to the various translations of Matthew 19:28 that @Scott Downey submitted per that post I was addressing at the time. All of them make it crystal clear that the sitting on these thrones happens after Christ returns, not before He returns. I then mentioned Revelation 3:21 should come to mind and that that verse supports reigning with Christ a thousand years.

Except per my view vs. your view, your proposed millennium would already be in the past when all of the following are initially fulfilled, while my proposed millennium wouldn't be.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

It is absurd that what is meant in Revelation 3:21---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is not meaning this in Matthew 19:28---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---nor is Matthew 25:31 giving us the timing of these things. All of that is absurd, let's consider something reasonable instead.


It is reasonable that what is meant in Revelation 3:21---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is meaning this in Matthew 19:28---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---and that Matthew 25:31 gives us the timing of these things. And that I conclude all of this fits with reigning with Christ a thousand years. Based on what I'm concluding per all the above passages----all of these things support Amil instead, exactly how???

Edited: fixed a typo.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If your position is, that when they are sitting on these thrones equals them assisting Christ judging others, what passages support that?

The fact of the matter is that we are not told explicitly what it means exactly for them to sit on thrones and judge. But, there is this...

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

I believe that they will judge the 12 tribes in the same sense that it talks about the saints judging the world. Unfortunately, we're not told exactly what that means. But, it says we will even judge angels. I can speculate on what it means, but I don't like to speculate. What I can say is that I don't see that it has anything to do with reigning for a thousand years. It's not talking about reigning, it's talking about judging. Surely, we will not be reigning over angels for a thousand years, but we will be taking part in their judgment somehow. The same seems to be the case for the world (unbelievers in particular). And we know the judgment of angels will not be having to be ruled over for a thousand years, but they will be cast into the lake of fire. I see no reason it's wont be the same for the unbelievers in the 12 tribes and the world.

Take Matthew 25, for instance. Where you take that to also be meaning the GWTJ. If per your view, all of the saved since the beginning of time through the end of time, are on His right, and all of the lost are on His left, how then does that equal any of the saved assisting Him in His judgments when they themselves are being judged? IOW, how can they be being judged and assisting Him in His judging at the same time?

Does it say that they have to be judging the entire time and can't take a break to be judged themselves? No. So, I don't see that you're making a strong argument here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are not making sense here or you totally misunderstood my point. My point was in regards to the various translations of Matthew 19:28 that @Scott Downey submitted per that post I was addressing at the time. All of them make it crystal clear that the sitting on these thrones happens after Christ returns, not before He returns. I then mentioned Revelation 3:21 should come to mind and that that verse supports reigning with Christ a thousand years.

Where does that verse say anything about reigning for a thousand years? Nowhere. You're the one not making sense.

Except per my view vs. your view, your proposed millennium would already be in the past when all of the following are initially fulfilled, while my proposed millennium wouldn't be.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

It is absurd that what is meant in Revelation 3:21---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is not meaning this in Matthew 19:28---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---nor is Matthew 25:31 giving us the timing of these things. All of that is absurd, let's consider something reasonable instead.

I agree with what you're saying here and yet you were claiming that Amils can't reconcile these passages with our view. Yes, we can. So, you're the one not making sense. Those are talking about judging at the judgment, not reigning for a thousand years.

It is reasonable that what is meant in Revelation 3:21---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is meaning this in Matthew 19:28---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---and that Matthew 25:31 gives us the timing of these things.

I agree. Hello? Why do you think that Amils can't agree with this? I agree with it, so you're wrong about that.

And that I conclude all of this fits with reigning with Christ a thousand years.

That's where you go off the rails. You are trying to equate judging with reigning for a thousand years. They are not equivalent.

Based on what I'm concluding per all the above passages----all of these things support Amil instead, exactly how???

Because it's only talking about judging at the judgment, not reigning during the thousand years.