Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

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Lambano

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What do you make of this?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,(A)
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets(B)
through Jesus Christ,(C) as my gospel(D) declares.

[

Who are these Gentiles who "by nature" do the things required by Torah?

I've seen a couple of theories. One is that this is only a hypothetical category. Paul will go on to show that "there is none righteous; no, not one" in Chapter 3. In the end, this category is an empty set.

The second theory is that these are the Gentile Christians. After all, Torah says to worship YHWH and Him alone; only Gentile "God-fearers" and Gentile Christians could meet that criterion. This would serve as a reminder to the Jewish Christians in the target audience that God may judge their Gentile brethren favorably. (Note the assumed racial tension between the two groups. Racial tensions in the Church? Imagine that.) I like this, but what about the "by nature" clause? How should we interpret that?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NIV
Though I am free and belong to no one,
I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.
‘To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.’
Reminds me of: 2 Corinthians 13:1-9 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. [2] I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, (?)and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: [3] Since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. [4] For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. [5] Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates? [6] But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates. [7] Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. [8] For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and you are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

‘To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.’
Paul saying they sought proof Christ speaks in him, also spoke of Christ ‘though he was crucified through weakness, yet he lives by the power of God.’
2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.

that to me is is the vital part considering “you know the Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ”
2 Corinthians 12:9-10 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. [10] Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

You may ask what does this have to do with law or Law? Isn’t this how Jesus Christ fulfilled the righteousness of God to where He pleased the Father, the Father whom said “This is My Son, Hear Him.”

All of the above is foreign to this world that now is. God’s thoughts higher, and His ways higher than our own thoughts and our own ways. Foreign is His thoughts, and His ways. It’s indisputable (Imo) that the way of this world that now is, is “I will be strong, that you be made weak.” Anyone cursed(crushed) under the weight of the mindset to steal, kill, and destroy. Of I will crush you, to elevate myself. It is so foreign and not of this world to see God’s repeated Nature and thoughts of “though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.” Again, Hebrews 12:9-10 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? [10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

It even appears again in: Romans 11:30-33 For as you in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [32] For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Disputing law or Law …can end with “I’ll be strong, that you be made weak.” Or “I’ll be wise, that you be made to appear the fool” or “I will be lifted up higher(above), that you be made lower(beneath)” Where it’s about who is right and knows the most?
 
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Wick Stick

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Killing must have a valid reason. Cain killed out of jealousy so it was immoral and would be murder which is an unlawful killing.

Like with Eve, we do not have a transcript of God telling someone what is wrong...but Cain was punished so it was wrong and I think we should assume God told people murder was wrong or that God programmed us all to know murder is wrong.
Killing is sometimes necessary, but if it is... something has gone badly wrong such that society can no longer tolerate that person even existing.
 

St. SteVen

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Disputing law or Law …can end with “I’ll be strong, that you be made weak.” Or “I’ll be wise, that you be made to appear the fool” or “I will be lifted up higher(above), that you be made lower(beneath)” Where it’s about who is right and knows the most?
What do you make of this?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God(A) has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

[
 

Wick Stick

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Who are these Gentiles who "by nature" do the things required by Torah?
Abraham seems relevant. God promised to make him a "father of Goyim."

These Goyim are the ones adopted to Abraham, because they already behave like Abraham, and "ye do the deeds of your father."
 

VictoryinJesus

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What do you make of this?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God(A) has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

[
but now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and Prophets testify.

a Light has now shines to those who sit in darkness? Or how He come not to save those who do not need a physician, but those who are sick.

What does the below about apart from the law, sin lies dead.

Romans 7:7-14 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." [8] But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. [9] I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. [10] The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. [11] For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. [12] So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. [13] Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I was always taught that our conscience is external rather than internal - that the conscience is God prompting us, rather than an inborn part of mankind.

Quick Bible search says that probably isn't right...

A conscience can have different meanings I think. because if every conscience is the same, then every consciences leads to Life. An example one can be sorry, or sorry they got caught?

2 Corinthians 7:10-11 For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world works death. [11] For behold this selfsame thing, that you sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
 

Jack

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Galatians 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

Deuteronomy 28:15 If you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
 

David in NJ

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Killing must have a valid reason. Cain killed out of jealousy so it was immoral and would be murder which is an unlawful killing.

Like with Eve, we do not have a transcript of God telling someone what is wrong...but Cain was punished so it was wrong and I think we should assume God told people murder was wrong or that God programmed us all to know murder is wrong.
God told Adam & Eve that death was wrong/sin.

God told Cain it was wrong = "Sin lies at your door" = Genesis 4:6-7

So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
If you do well, will you not be accepted?
And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

Our conscience was created within us when God created man HE said: "It was good"

Genesis 1:31 - "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good."
 

Jack

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I don't know of anyone who obeys the Law of Moses. And yet Law preachers love to preach the parts they like!
 
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St. SteVen

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Our conscience was created within us when God created man HE said: "It was good"

Genesis 1:31 - "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good."
I think our human conscience came as a result of eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
That's what our conscience is. The knowledge (discernment between) good and evil.

The results were immediate for A&E. Unfortunately, it also gave the enemy access to their thoughts.
At the end of chapter two of Genesis they were "naked and unashamed".
After eating the forbidden fruit the enemy shamed their nakedness.

God actually asked Adam, "Who told you that you were naked?" Who indeed.

[
 

VictoryinJesus

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God actually asked Adam, "Who told you that you were naked?" Who indeed.
I feel like people get tired of my opinions. But I do have them and I can’t ignore a lot of questions I have about bible passages. In relation to “who told you that you were naked.”
I can’t ignore God gives unto us a Spirit of freedom, of love and of a sound (being not tossed to and fro by the doctrines of men) mind. In the same it speaks of not as the spirit the world gave unto you of fear unto bondage. To me that says the world gives a spirit which His word says (I think) receive not this spirit again unto bondage. Growing up, at what point does the world begin to express “you are naked?” How early, I don’t know. even before coming out of the womb even? I was conceived out of wedlock and a secret my mother hid until I found out in my forties. I come out of an affair where my biological father didn’t want to know me, because he was also born as what people back then referred to strongly as, a bastard child.

I think of Maggie who has cerebral palsy…she is in her twenties now. When she was born her mother said Christian’s asked often to cast the demon out of Maggie. I can’t help but wonder if the world judges by sight that Maggie is sin made manifest. but Maggie never plays a victim. As long as I’ve known her she doesn’t whine it’s not fair. Instead her passion is to help others. She has more purpose in her mind and body, than I do. More purpose to walk on(even though wheelchair bound). It makes me think of when Jesus asked who did wrong that this child be born this way? There’s a quote I like: "I believe that when God brings a child like this into the world the perfection that he seeks is in the way people react to this child."
 
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Wick Stick

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I think our human conscience came as a result of eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
That's what our conscience is. The knowledge (discernment between) good and evil.

The results were immediate for A&E. Unfortunately, it also gave the enemy access to their thoughts.
At the end of chapter two of Genesis they were "naked and unashamed".
After eating the forbidden fruit the enemy shamed their nakedness.

God actually asked Adam, "Who told you that you were naked?" Who indeed.
Are we all-in on a hyper-literal interpretation of the story?

In a less-literal interpretation, being naked refers to a nation who isn't a vassal to any state - they lack the covering and protection of a great empire. This is the story of a tribe of people who made the wrong alliance, and were forced out of their homeland and into the wilderness.
 

Soyeong

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The Law of God/Moses/Christ/the Spirit all refer to the same thing.

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God spoke to him without departing from it, which is why the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23.

God's way is the way to know Him and Jesus by directing our lives towards being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits, which is the way to back to the Tree of Life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by being a doer of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that he has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life. This is also why Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Law of Moses (Luke 10:25-28).

An arrow flies true when it hits its mark, our mark is the way back to the Tree of Life by walking in God's way, and the Law of Moses is truth (Psalms 119:142) because it is God’s instructions for how to walk in His way (1 Kings 2:1-3). Sin is missing the mark, sin is what is contrary to God’s way, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4). The Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13) and of leading us to obey the Law of Moses (Ezekiel 36:26-27) because the the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God’s character. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of God’s character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spirit in obedience to the Law of Moses, so he is truth (John 14:6-11).

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and the Law of Christ should not be considered to be contrary to anything that Christ taught. Christ defeated the temptations of Satan by quoting three times from Deuteronomy, including saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by everything that comes from the mouth of God, so he affirmed Deuteronomy and everything that comes from the mouth of God, which includes what God spoke to Moses in Deuteronomy 5:31-33. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God and the Law of Moses was given by God, so the Law of Christ should not be considered to be contrary to anything that has come from the mouth of God.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed a works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of Moses while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's character that the Law of Moses was given to teach us how to express. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law of Moses and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Law of Moses.
 

St. SteVen

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The Law of God/Moses/Christ/the Spirit all refer to the same thing.
This scripture makes it different things.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people
so that by all possible means I might save some.

[
 

Soyeong

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This scripture makes it different things.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people
so that by all possible means I might save some.

[
Paul used a parallel statement to equate not being outside the Law of God with being under the Law of Christ, which is straightforward if you believe that Christ is God.
 

St. SteVen

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Paul used a parallel statement to equate not being outside the Law of God with being under the Law of Christ, which is straightforward if you believe that Christ is God.
You still haven't defined for me what God's law is.

This passage differentiates between:
- the law (which he is not under)
- God’s law (which he is not free from)
- Christ’s law (which he is under)
Three different things. (they can't be the same)

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people
so that by all possible means I might save some.

[
 

Lambano

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This passage differentiates between:
- the law (which he is not under)
- God’s law (which he is not free from)
- Christ’s law (which he is under)
Three different things. (they can't be the same)

That's just Paul's flowery, poetic way of saying that while he's not under Torah, he has subjected himself to Christ's authority. (Which is what the confession "Jesus is Lord" really means.) To Paul, Christ's authority is not written down "law" (no NT at the time, and Paul's letters show very little familiarity with Christ's earthly teachings), but more likely directives received through the Spirit.

Just a literary device. A clever turn of the phrase. As songwriter, you can relate to that, right?
 
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St. SteVen

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Just a literary device. A clever turn of the phrase. As songwriter, you can relate to that, right?
Yes, of course. But...

That's just Paul's flowery, poetic way of saying that while he's not under Torah, he has subjected himself to Christ's authority. (Which is what the confession "Jesus is Lord" really means.) To Paul, Christ's authority is not written down "law" (no NT at the time, and Paul's letters show very little familiarity with Christ's earthly teachings), but more likely directives received through the Spirit.
I agree that it is poetic in delivery. But the parenthetical statements are informative.
And obviously, "the law", "God's law" and "Christ's law" are three different things.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people
so that by all possible means I might save some.

[