Evidence of spiritual regeneration - the conversion experience

[St. SteVen]

How much of this fussin' and feudin' is about understanding how to be obedient to God?

Seems a bit off topic to me. Unless obedience is the key indicator for spiritual regeneration. But obedience to what or whom?

There's a reason our Jewish cousins consider Torah to be God's greatest gift to humankind. And then they have a couple thousand years of commentary and interpretation to explain what they think it says and what God requires of us. There's a reason why our Catholic brothers and sisters consider obeying the Church's teachings to be the standard and highly discourages "private interpretation". There's a reason why the Reformation made the written Bible normative on all Protestant believers, and why most Protestant denominations are officially or unofficially Cessationist. It's because we do consider obedience to God's will to be important.

I think the reason is legalism. People want a written job description. And will refuse to do anything beyond that.

Like my ISO 9001 instructor said, "First you need to have a spec. Then you at least know what you're deviating from."

Words to live by.

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[Wrangler]

What do we look for in a new convert to give evidence of regeneration

Commitment.

What if the person isn't interested, or unable to "do church"

Lip service. No commitment.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What do we look for in a new convert to give evidence of regeneration

Commitment.

To what or whom?

St. SteVen said:
What if the person isn't interested, or unable to "do church"

Lip service. No commitment.

Oh, a commitment to a church? Really?

I should talk. Pfft... I've been very faithful. But I don't measure myself by that.

[

 

[MA2444]

Seems a bit off topic to me. Unless obedience is the key indicator for spiritual regeneration. But obedience to what or whom?

You keep saying that, like you dont know to whom. A person can know his bible very well and not have a relationship with the Lord. The way relationship happens begins in the book. It tells us what to be obediant at. We pray and seek His forgiveness, and then, after you end your prayer, you keep talking to Him. And keep talking to Him and give pause in your conversation to give Him a chance to answer!

That's how I learned to be able to hear the still small voice of God within me. I didnt know what I was doing. I had no clue. So I figured...become as a little child huh? Ok I'll try that. If the floor can be lava lol, then whatever pops into my mind after I ask Him a question...is the the answer from Him. (like a little child holding expectation in the questions to God, that He will answer) After all, it's just a game, right? Lol.

And so I started listening closer and talking more. Sometimes a scripture would pop into my head. Sometimes a thought would come to me without scripture and it would sure sound like an answer to me. It answered my question. Ok then, Lord, here's my next question...

So was I having a conversation to myself inside my head? My own thoughts? But then I started noticeing little things, like how He spoke. He doesnt speak like I do or think like I do. So it had to from outside. Even a lot of His grammar isnt how I talk. It had to be Him. I mean where was I I? I'm talking to my Lord and expecting an answer to my question! Will He not answer? Rubbish! He Will Answer. That's what this was all about. So I dunno if He turned up the volume for me or I just got used to talking to him. But...it turned into a regular conversation. I kid you not. I guarentee you that if you talk to Him then He'll talk to you.

There wasnt any big presence of God there or anything, it was just a conversation. SOmetimes He says things that I dont like or want to agree to! He will try your Faith! Sometimes He has changed the subject on me and didnt answer my question directly. A little change of subject, welcome to something you hadnt thought of yet! Thanks, Lord!! It's always like that, lol. He smarter than me.

But I can hardly see how He could ever say to me at this point...I never knew you! I was the one putting the bug in His ear, lol. He loves to talk. After awhile you start talking about trivial stuff just because. The Prayer List runs out quick in conversation, but He's still there! Soo...gotta talk about something. (I know His favorite car!)

People have a hard time believing that they can have a sit down with the Creator of the universe! You cant even see it! You might be surprised at what all was Him talking to you before you learned His voice! He must talk to everyone every day all day long and people just do not realize it and take this oppurtunity to embrace a relationship with the Lord! It's better than walking alone. It was actually easier to learn how to hear the Lords still small voice than I thought it would be! Then once you learn to hear His voice, He starts the conversations with me. He likes to wake me up at 3 AM to pray and talk. I do it sometimes but I need to get better about not pretending I didnt hear Him, lol! That's so embarassing.

He even told me why 3AM too! He siad that most of the electronic transmissions from internet around the world are all that at a minumun for those early hours. It's harder for people to pray during the day because of electronic interferance

I try not to come across like, thus sayeth the Lord so dont talk too much like that, but I still need to share the information of how I learned to hear the still small voice of God. Because it is very real. I tell you what, it's definiely a Faith builder knowing your walking around with Almighty God with you. It's very real and if I can do it others can too. But you have to try.

 

[MA2444]

Seems a bit off topic to me. Unless obedience is the key indicator for spiritual regeneration. But obedience to what or whom?

Obediance is rewarded is what scripture says. He has shown me these things and rewarded me for different things. (I accidently pass a test once in awhile Lol) Pass or fail we live and learn. And obediance to the word and all the biblical principles when applied to your life will help you to pass these tests in your life. And Obediance is a key because it takes obediance receive the rewards for obediance. Promotion in the Kingdom of God! Who wouldnt want to be Promoted in God's kingdom?

So sanctification takes time and is a series of tests for us as believers. Scripture tells, do this, dont do that... and when we're obediant to his word in that way, then you my friend are in line for a promotion. Nobody climbs the Mountian of God quickly! Here we are basically at the foot of the mountain and looking up, it gets steep fast. And dangerous. If you start climbing you get higher but if you fall, you will fall further than if you was still at the bottom. And it all hinges on obediance, the more the better. Scripture says build up your treasures in Heaven...Ok, so how do we do that? Easy by doing good deeds for people and helping (anyone) out when they need it.

Maybe you think you do your share in good deeds, even pay Tithes maybe. That's good and all, good deeds are the fine linen we wear in heaven so the more good deeds that we do for the poor and needy, the bigger our Mansion in Heaven will be? Maybe. Scripture does say, would ye have treasure in Heaven? Go sell all that you have and give to the poor...

I admit, I havent been that obediant yet! Lol. I'm trying.

 

[Lambano]

Seems a bit off topic to me. Unless obedience is the key indicator for spiritual regeneration. But obedience to what or whom?

MacArthur's premise is that a desire to obey God is one of the key indicators for spiritual regeneration. If you want, you can argue that the logical premise is false.

I think the reason is legalism. People want a written job description.

But if the premise IS true, then the logical next question for someone who WANTS to please God would be, "What does God want?" Assume also that knowledge of what God wants does NOT come auto-magically with spiritual regeneration. (You can argue against that previously unstated assumption too, if you like.) Then, having a written job description is a wonderful thing for God to have given us.

People want a written job description. And will refuse to do anything beyond that.

Premise: That describes spiritually unregenerate people. Spiritually regenerate people love God and are willing to go above and beyond the bare minimum requirements.

 

[MatthewG]

It's most certainly evidence of a heart change. Once a world full of me, now becomes a world full of the Father, and the Lord Jesus and working in and through the individuals who abide in Christ, and reside to continue to ask the Father in heaven, for help by the holy spirit which Yeshua, spoke about concerning this.

Response stopped

Sent by Copilot:​

In the Bible, Jesus speaks about the Holy Spirit as an advocate and helper sent by the Father to those who ask for His guidance.

For instance, in John 14:16-17, Jesus says, "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth"1.

Additionally, Luke 11:13 mentions, "how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"2.
These passages highlight the promise that the Holy Spirit will be given to those who seek help from the Father.

 

[St. SteVen]

MacArthur's premise is that a desire to obey God is one of the key indicators for spiritual regeneration. If you want, you can argue that the logical premise is false.

That's fine in such simple terms. My concern with Johnny Mac is what he means by obeying God.

But if the premise IS true, then the logical next question for someone who WANTS to please God would be, "What does God want?" Assume also that knowledge of what God wants does NOT come auto-magically with spiritual regeneration. (You can argue against that previously unstated assumption too, if you like.) Then, having a written job description is a wonderful thing for God to have given us.

How do we answer that question: "What does God want?" ???
New converts depend on the church to disciple them. The type of church will steer them one way, or another.

Certainly being discipled in a Catholic church is different than a Protestant church. And conservative Protestant churches are different than liberal or progressive churches, or Charismatic/Pentecostal churches.

Premise: That describes spiritually unregenerate people. Spiritually regenerate people love God and are willing to go above and beyond the bare minimum requirements.

Good point. Thanks.

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[MA2444]

I think the reason is legalism. People want a written job description. And will refuse to do anything beyond that.

Isnt our Job Description written in the Bible?

 

[Lambano]

How do we answer that question: "What does God want?" ???
New converts depend on the church to disciple them. The type of church will steer them one way, or another.

Certainly being discipled in a Catholic church is different than a Protestant church. And conservative Protestant churches are different than liberal or progressive churches, or Charismatic/Pentecostal churches.

Isnt our Job Description written in the Bible?

A believer's understanding of what God wants is influenced by Scripture, Church tradition, reason, and personal experience. And I would argue that a believer's reading of Scripture is influenced by the other three. You can see, then, why each person's understanding of what God wants is going to vary (even within a single denomination). But yet they all desire to please God.

And from that, you can probably tell what my own denominational tradition is.

 

[St. SteVen]

A believer's understanding of what God wants is influenced by Scripture, Church tradition, reason, and personal experience. And I would argue that a believer's reading of Scripture is influenced by the other three. You can see, then, why each person's understanding of what God wants is going to vary (even within a single denomination). But yet they all desire to please God.

Yes. even in the most institutionally controlled environment, there will be a personal experience that has a strong influence. And I have seen believers traveling in the opposite direction yet reaching the same goal. Leaving a denomination on one end of the spectrum to land in one on the opposite end. Or even those in the middle heading one direction or the other.

In some sense, the journey is more important than the destination. Who you are, being more important than where you are,

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[St. SteVen]

Excerpt from the OP.

What do we look for in a new convert to give evidence of regeneration in their conversion experience?

Bearing in mind that not everyone has an event, or day, to cite as their conversion time. It may have been more gradual.

Either way, there should be some evidence that spiritual regeneration has taken place.

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[Johann]

What do we look for in a new convert to give evidence of regeneration in their conversion experience?

Bearing in mind that not everyone has an event, or day, to cite as their conversion time. It may have been more gradual.

Either way, there should be some evidence that spiritual regeneration has taken place.

A Changed Life:

2 Corinthians 5:17 (TR): "Ὥστε ἐὰν τις ἐν Χριστῷ, καινὴ κτίσις· τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρήλθεν, ἰδοὺ γέγονεν καινά."
Morphology: The verb "γέγονεν" (gegonen) is in the perfect tense, indicating a completed action with ongoing results. A new creation in Christ involves a significant change in one's life, where old behaviors and attitudes pass away, and new ones emerge.
Fruit of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:22-23 (TR): "ὁ δὲ καρπὸς τοῦ Πνεύματος ἐστὶν ἀγάπη, χαρά, εἰρήνη, μακροθυμία, χρηστότης, ἀγαθωσύνη, πίστις, πρᾳότης, ἐγκράτεια· κατὰ τῶν τοιούτων οὐκ ἔστιν νόμος."
Morphology: The noun "καρπὸς" (karpos) is singular, indicating a unified manifestation of the Spirit's work. The fruit of the Spirit includes qualities that should increasingly characterize a believer's life, such as love, joy, peace, and self-control.
Confession of Faith in Christ:

Romans 10:9 (TR): "ὅτι ἐὰν ὁμολογήσῃς τῷ στόματί σου Κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ πιστεύσῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου ὅτι ὁ Θεὸς αὐτὸν ἐγήγερεν ἐκ νεκρῶν, σωθήσῃ."
Morphology: The verbs "ὁμολογήσῃς" (homologēsēs) and "πιστεύσῃς" (pisteusēs) are in the aorist subjunctive, implying that a genuine confession and belief are crucial for salvation. A new convert should be able to profess faith in Jesus Christ and believe in His resurrection.
Desire for Righteousness:

Matthew 5:6 (TR): "μακάριοι οἱ πεινῶντες καὶ διψῶντες τὴν δικαιοσύνην, ὅτι αὐτοὶ χορτασθήσονται."
Morphology: The verbs "πεινῶντες" (peinōntes) and "διψῶντες" (dipsōntes) are in the present participle, indicating an ongoing desire for righteousness. A regenerated believer shows a persistent longing for living according to God's righteousness.
Love for Other Believers:

1 John 3:14 (TR): "Ἐν τούτῳ γινώσκομεν ὅτι μετέχομεν τῆς ζωῆς, ὅτι ἀγαπῶμεν τοὺς ἀδελφούς· ὁ μισῶν τὸν ἀδελφὸν αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ θανάτῳ ἐστίν."
Morphology: The verb "ἀγαπῶμεν" (agapōmen) is in the present active indicative, signifying a continuous action. Genuine love for fellow believers is a hallmark of spiritual regeneration and evidence of new life in Christ.
Repentance and Turning from Sin:

Acts 26:20 (TR): "ἀλλὰ ἀναγγέλλων ἔκαμον πρὸς τὸν Θεόν καὶ ἔχρησάμην ἀπὸ τῶν ἔργων ἃς ἐποίησα ἐν τῇ τῶν ἔθνεσιν."
Morphology: The verb "ἀναγγέλλων" (anangellōn) is in the present participle, indicating ongoing proclamation and turning. True repentance involves a continuous turning away from sin and towards God.
Obedience to God's Commands:

John 14:15 (TR): "Ἐὰν ἀγαπᾷτέ με, τὰς ἐντολὰς μου τηρήσετε."
Morphology: The verb "τηρήσετε" (tērēsete) is in the future indicative, indicating a future action that stems from a present love for Christ. Obedience to God's commands is an expression of love and evidence of spiritual regeneration.
Summary:

These scriptures collectively provide a comprehensive view of what evidence we look for in a new convert. A regenerated believer will exhibit a changed life, demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit, confess faith in Christ, show a desire for righteousness, love fellow believers, exhibit repentance from sin, and obey God's commands. These manifestations indicate that genuine spiritual regeneration has taken place.

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

A Changed Life:

Agree. Good post, thanks.

Summary:

These scriptures collectively provide a comprehensive view of what evidence we look for in a new convert. A regenerated believer will exhibit a changed life, demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit, confess faith in Christ, show a desire for righteousness, love fellow believers, exhibit repentance from sin, and obey God's commands. These manifestations indicate that genuine spiritual regeneration has taken place.

That's a good list.
What does it mean to "obey God's commands"? Can anyone do this in a complete way?

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[Johann]

What does it mean to "obey God's commands"? Can anyone do this in a complete way?

Brother-that's an excellent question.

Obeying God's commands means living in accordance with the principles and directives given by God in Scripture. This involves both following the moral guidelines He has set and aligning one's life with His will. Here's what this entails and what Scripture says about our ability to obey:

Understanding Obedience:

John 14:15 (TR): "Ἐὰν ἀγαπᾷτέ με, τὰς ἐντολὰς μου τηρήσετε."
Here, Jesus is clear that obedience to His commands is a demonstration of love for Him. To "keep" or "observe" His commands means to live in a way that honors His teachings.

The Challenge of Complete Obedience:

James 3:2 (TR): "πολλὰ πταίομεν πάντες. εἴ τις ἐν λόγῳ οὐ πταίει, οὗτος τέλειος ἀνὴρ, ἰκανὸς καὶ πᾶσαν ἔργου."
James acknowledges that no one is perfect and that we all stumble in many ways. The fact that we are capable of stumbling in our speech shows the difficulty of achieving complete obedience.

Dependence on God’s Grace:

Romans 7:18 (TR): "Ἐγὼ γὰρ οὐκ οἶδα τὸ ἀγαθὸν οὐδὲν, ἐν ἐμοί, τοῦτ' ἔστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου. τὸ γὰρ θέλημα εὑρίσκω, ἀλλὰ τὸ ποιοῦν κακὸν οὐχ."
Paul explains that within ourselves, we struggle to do good. This verse highlights our reliance on God’s grace because we cannot perfectly obey His commands through our own strength.

The Role of the Holy Spirit:

Galatians 5:16 (TR): "Λέγω δὲ, Περὶ πνεύματος πορεύεσθε, καὶ ἐπιθυμίαν σαρκός οὐ μὴ τελέσητε."
Paul instructs us to walk by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit empowers believers to live in accordance with God’s commands, helping us to overcome our sinful desires.

Grace and Growth:

Philippians 2:13 (TR): "Θεὸς γὰρ ἐστὶς ὁ ἐνεργῶν ἐν ὑμῖν καὶ τὸ θέλειν καὶ τὸ ἐνεργεῖν ὑπὲρ τῆς εὐδοκίας."
This verse reminds us that it is God who works in us both to will and to act according to His good pleasure. Our obedience is a result of His work within us, not merely our own effort.

Striving for Perfection:

Matthew 5:48 (TR): "Ἔστε οὖν τέλειοι, ὡς ὁ Πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ Οὐράνιος τέλειος ἐστίν."
Jesus calls us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. While this standard seems unattainable, it sets a high bar for our striving, indicating that our goal is to pursue holiness with the understanding that perfection is only fully realized in God.
Obeying God's commands involves a heartfelt commitment to living according to His will. While complete, flawless obedience is beyond our reach due to human imperfection and the limitations of our sinful nature, the Bible encourages us to strive towards it with the help of the Holy Spirit. Our growth in obedience is a process of dependence on God’s grace, striving towards His standards, and being empowered by His Spirit to live in a way that reflects His commands.

As for myself, still struggling but all I need to do is read Romans 6,7 and 8 and the promises in Ephesians. I can give you more references but this should suffice.
God bless
J.

 

[Episkopos]

Show me a sign. >>> >>> >>> >>>

What do we look for in a new convert to give evidence of regeneration in their conversion experience? Bearing in mind that not everyone has an event, or day, to cite as their conversion time. It may have been more gradual. Either way, there should be some evidence that spiritual regeneration has taken place.

Agreed. But it's not how we begin a race but how we finish it that counts. A person can have a slow start to a race...like a person with an unclear regeneration experience...something vague or not defined clearly. And yet they can thrive because they are humble and teachable. Others have a more dramatic conversion...but pride and hubris can get in the way of any growth at all out of the starting blocks. I liken this to the "Tortoise and the hare" fable that shows that it's how one finishes the race that counts. This is fully supported by the bible. (EZ. 18 and 33)

Would compliance with "church" expectations be a primary indication? Or are we looking for more? (or less) ???

What if the person isn't interested, or unable to "do church", for whatever reason? Can a person grow spiritually outside the church?

]

Depends what you mean by church. Outside the institution? A person needs to leave the institution to grow spiritually. To forsake thew assembly? No. One must be as connected to other brethren as possible. One can learn many spiritual things when alone...but to actually GROW spiritually, one needs other believers to interact with. What a challenge that this is in the modern lawless climate.

 

[Episkopos]

Excerpt from the OP.

What do we look for in a new convert to give evidence of regeneration in their conversion experience?

Bearing in mind that not everyone has an event, or day, to cite as their conversion time. It may have been more gradual.

Either way, there should be some evidence that spiritual regeneration has taken place.

[

Love in the eyes...joy, a profound peace...humility, and the fear of the Lord. :)

 

[St. SteVen]

Brother-that's an excellent question.

Great post, thanks!

Obeying God's commands means living in accordance with the principles and directives given by God in Scripture. This involves both following the moral guidelines He has set and aligning one's life with His will. Here's what this entails and what Scripture says about our ability to obey:

Well said. And I like the way you broke it down into components. Excellent.

- Understanding Obedience
- The Challenge of Complete Obedience
- Dependence on God’s Grace
- The Role of the Holy Spirit
- Grace and Growth
- Striving for Perfection

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Show me a sign. >>> >>> >>> >>>

What do we look for in a new convert to give evidence of regeneration in their conversion experience? Bearing in mind that not everyone has an event, or day, to cite as their conversion time. It may have been more gradual. Either way, there should be some evidence that spiritual regeneration has taken place.

Would compliance with "church" expectations be a primary indication?
Or are we looking for more? (or less) ???

What if the person isn't interested, or unable to "do church", for whatever reason?
Can a person grow spiritually outside the church?

]

 

[Behold]

Show me a sign. >>> >>> >>> >>>

What do we look for in a new convert to give evidence of regeneration in their conversion experience?

We would listen for a Testimony that explains being forgiven and receiving Christ as Savior.

People like me look for eager bible students.. people who love the bible, trust it, and want to learn it......and are kinda obsessed, as befit's any real born again believer.

Would compliance with "church" expectations be a primary indication?

It depends on the Church and what they teach, and how they disciple the new convert.

What if the person isn't interested, or unable to "do church", for whatever reason?
Can a person grow spiritually outside the church?

Relationship with God and Jesus is a 1<>1 daily experience that is based on devotion, discipleship, bible reading, prayer and praise.

So, find a church that is dedicated to teaching the correct understanding of "Justification by faith"....... as God's mercy and Grace that is based only on the Cross of Christ, that is freely offered to everyone everywhere, at all times.
Avoid any church that "requires" water baptism as a part of Salvation, and avoid any Church that teaches that you can lose your Salvation, and you've avoided many of the Cults.