The Coming Rapture

[shepherdsword]

Certainly there is. The kings and priests in heaven in Revelation 5 are the Church

Ok. However, I will mention that Keraz is wrong because he doesn't understand that in a lunar eclipse the moon is both as blood and darkened. Additionally, how many times do the stars fall from heaven? The stars falling from heaven in Matthew 24 are the same stars that fall from heaven at the 6th seal.

ABSOLUTELY. Do you not see that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



I believe you proved my point above.


As I have said, there is no secret rapture at the 6th seal. But there is a secret rapture.


Sure. No problem.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

I asked for scriptural proof...not conjecture from a metaphoric passage. This has nothing to do with the rapture.

Actually, the feast will occur inside the 70th week of Daniel and then continue.

I am not proving your point. I am not claiming there is a secret rapture of the Church at the 6th seal. There is "A" rapture at the 6th seal, but it is not the rapture of the Church.


Ok and let's qualify that second coming so for the sake of argument, we are on the same page.

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation of those days, he comes for a harvest. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Jesus remains in the clouds and does not touch the earth, and yet all eyes see the coming of the Lord.

That is what happens at the 6th seal. And then the 7th seal is opened, and the trumpets and vials of wrath occur.

I agree...it is the second coming when the rapture also occurs.

Because the rapture at the 6th seal is not the rapture of the Church.

Is the same event as the 7th and last trumpet making it the rapture of the church. You have failed to prove other wise

Scripture says there are two raptures. And when you realize that, all the arguments and so called proof that there is not a secret rapture go up in smoke.

No wherein scripture are there two raptures. All references refer to the same event.

The real question is are you looking for the truth or is your goal to protect a doctrine. From what I see, most people are interested in protecting a doctrine than finding the truth.

That's a question you need to ask yourself. Are you looking for truth or just some convoluted justification for a pre trib rapture myth

And sorry for the late response. I did not realize that you responded.

No problem

 

[The Light]

I asked for scriptural proof...not conjecture from a metaphoric passage. This has nothing to do with the rapture.

Okay. Those passages are just tossed in there for no reason. Rise up my love, my fair one and come away. They are talking about a stroll in the park.

I agree...it is the second coming when the rapture also occurs.

There is a rapture at the 6th seal. And that has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trumpet or 7th vial that occurs in the 7th seal.

Advanced math.............6...........then 7. Not the same number.

Is the same event as the 7th and last trumpet making it the rapture of the church. You have failed to prove other wise

You see what you want to see. You are not looking for the truth.

No wherein scripture are there two raptures. All references refer to the same event.

Are the trump of God and the last trump the same thing?
Are the days of Noah and the days of Lot the same thing?
Is the Lord Himself coming for His bride the same as the Lord sending His angels.
Is the dead in Christ rising first and then the alive that remained the same as the dead and alive changing in the twinkling of an eye.

If you leave out all the facts, I guess I could see your point.

That's a question you need to ask yourself. Are you looking for truth or just some convoluted justification for a pre trib rapture myth

No problem

I was post trib and realized there is more than one rapture. Most people still think that the 70th week of Daniel is about the Gentiles.

The wise watch as instructed as He promises to come in an hour that we think not. Some believe Him, some don't.

 

[ewq1938]

LOL.

Let me help you.

The first 4 seals that John has a vision of are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.
The fifth seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24.
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest. He opens the seal and heads to earth. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7.

You say.........."The fact that Jesus does not leave heaven when he opens the 6th seal proves the events of the 6th seal do not happen at the opening of the seal."

Your facts are in error. Jesus does leave heaven as shown in Matthew 24.

He didn't leave heaven in Matthew 24 either. IT'S PROPHECY of future events. The seals are the same thing.

It remains a fact that Jesus stays in heaven after having opened the 6th seal. He doesn't leave until the 7th trump, which is what the 6th seal is talking about.

The seals are INFORMATION only.
The trumps are ACTION happening.

 

[shepherdsword]

Okay. Those passages are just tossed in there for no reason. Rise up my love, my fair one and come away. They are talking about a stroll in the park.

No, it the Lord calling the bride to intimacy...not to a rapture

There is a rapture at the 6th seal. And that has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trumpet or 7th vial that occurs in the 7th seal.

Advanced math.............6...........then 7. Not the same number.


You see what you want to see. You are not looking for the truth.

One can say the same thing about you. You are seeing what you want to see

Are the trump of God and the last trump the same thing?
Are the days of Noah and the days of Lot the same thing?
Is the Lord Himself coming for His bride the same as the Lord sending His angels.
Is the dead in Christ rising first and then the alive that remained the same as the dead and alive changing in the twinkling of an eye.

If you leave out all the facts, I guess I could see your point.


I was post trib and realized there is more than one rapture. Most people still think that the 70th week of Daniel is about the Gentiles.

The wise watch as instructed as He promises to come in an hour that we think not. Some believe Him, some don't.

The wise watch and wait for the Lord's coming. They know the time is near by the preceding signs of confirmation.

I can see this is going no where. Goodbye and God bless!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you do not believe that when Jesus ascended, He did not go back to heaven as He said?

I didn't say that at all. What did I say to lead you to ask that ridiculous question?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So who is the bride in heaven in REv. 19?

The souls of the dead in Christ. They will come with Jesus at His second coming, unite with their resurrected, changed bodies and be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet Jesus in the air.

Yes oiur Fathers house after the millennial kingdom is coming to earth, but we will be there already. But during the Millennial kingdom it is not on earth.

Paul said in 2 cor. that to absent from the body is to be present with Jesus. So where does the soul and spirit of a person goes if not to heaven when the body dies???

Where did I say anything to indicate that I don't believe the soul and spirit of a believer go to heaven when the body dies? Nowhere. You have a reading comprehension problem.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pauls Prophecy in 1 Cor 15:22-23, is correct, but he omits the Millennium.

Yes, he omits that because he knew that it does not happen after Christ's return. But, because you are so biased, you have decided to insert something into the text that doesn't belong.

Which we know does come after Jesus Returns.

No, we know that it does not if we take ALL of scripture into account, which you do not.

It is illogical and unscriptural to think Jesus never reigns as King over the world.

I agree. He does now. You just refuse to accept the manner in which He does and want Him to be a dictator, which He is not.

You don't accept what Jesus Himself said.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

The proof that many will be alive after Jesus Returns is in Prophesies like Isaiah 65:20, Isaiah 2:1-5, Zechariah 14:16-21

Wrong. There will be no mortals still alive after He returns. Isaiah 65:20 is about the new heavens and new earth where there will be no more death (Rev 21:4). Isaiah 2:1-5 is about the last days which other scriptures shows is the time period between the first and second coming of Christ (Acts 2:16-21, 2 Peter 3:3-4). Zechariah 14:16-21, if taken literally as you do, cannot possibly be referring to a time period after Christ returns since it is impossible for animal sacrifices to be reinstated since they were made permanently obsolete by Christ's sacrifice long ago (Hebrews 8-10). You are interpreting those passages in such a way that blatantly contradicts other passages and you don't even care about that. You are reckless with scripture.

That many are wrong is what Daniel 12:6b is saying.

That would include you then.

 

[The Light]

No, it the Lord calling the bride to intimacy...not to a rapture

Rise up my love and come away sound like a rapture to me. And you dismiss all the details and timing.

The wise watch and wait for the Lord's coming. They know the time is near by the preceding signs of confirmation.

You are looking for the man of sin to appear, not the Lord.

I can see this is going no where. Goodbye and God bless!

I missed the scripture that says...................run away and you will find.

The doctrine that you adhere to makes no sense...........and inside you know it. You know that it is impossible for the 7th trumpet to sound at the 6th seal, because the 7th trumpet is in the 7th seal.

 

[The Light]

He didn't leave heaven in Matthew 24 either. IT'S PROPHECY of future events.

He leaves heaven when the 6th seal is opened. He will send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at that time. After the harvest all return to heaven for marriage supper.

At the 6th seal, the second coming occurs as all eyes see the coming of the Lord.

The seals are the same thing.

John had vision of the seals. In His vision as each seal was opened, the event occurred. So when the first seal is opened, we will see the rider on the white horse etc., etc.

So when the 6th seal is opened, The great tribulation is over, and Jesus will return for a harvest.

When the 7th seal is opened, the wrath of God can begin. The wrath of God is contained in the 7t trumpets and 7 vials.

It remains a fact that Jesus stays in heaven after having opened the 6th seal.

What fact? Here's what happens when the 6th seal is opened.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

He doesn't leave until the 7th trump, which is what the 6th seal is talking about.

The 6th seal occurs immediately after the tribulation. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

Jesus comes for the dead in Christ before the seals are opened. He also returns for the alive that remain before the seals are opened.

At the 6th sea, Jesus returns for the gathering from heaven and earth. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7.

Believers are not appointed to wrath. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

The seals are INFORMATION only.

Why does the Word say as each seal is opened, the event occurs? Why would you deny that?

The only reason that you don't think the event occurs as each seal is opened is because you can't figure out how to make your timeline work. If you just skip the 1st 6 seals, you can make your timeline work. Why not try changing your timeline to fit scripture instead of changing scripture to fit your timeline

The trumps are ACTION happening.

All 7 seals will occur as each seal is opened. All seals are ACTION as they are opened.

BTW. The great tribulation is not the wrath of God. The great tribulation is the 5th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal.

 

[ewq1938]

He leaves heaven when the 6th seal is opened.

No, he remains right where he is to open the next seal. The seals only show what will happen in the future. There are not two second comings or starts of God's wrath. They happen at the 7th trump, not during the seals.

 

[ewq1938]

The wrath of God is the 7th seal.

Teh 7th seal is silence not wrath. The wrath is depicted in the 6th seal but it does not happen when that seal is opened. You cannot tell when something is only prophecy VS. actual action. The seals are not action happening at that time but visions of future actions.

 

[The Light]

Teh 7th seal is silence not wrath. The wrath is depicted in the 6th seal but it does not happen when that seal is opened. You cannot tell when something is only prophecy VS. actual action. The seals are not action happening at that time but visions of future actions.

Let me make sure I have your viewpoint straight. When the 1st 4 seals are opened the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse are not released. When the 5th seal is opened, the great tribulation is not on the earth. And when the 6th seal is opened Jesus does not return immediately after the tribulation of those days and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth like the scripture says.

But when the 7th seal is opened, suddenly, we have an actionable seal. And that awesome action, overpowering action is silence in heaven. You can't possibly believe this. Are you looking through my camera on the computer and seeing if I believe this nonsense. You can't believe this cherry picking can you?

And then the trumpets and vials of God wrath.......are they actionable or not?

 

[The Light]

No, he remains right where he is to open the next seal. The seals only show what will happen in the future.

Paul has a vision of what will happen in the seals. However, when the seals are actually opened, what Paul sees in his vision is going to happen.

There are not two second comings or starts of God's wrath. They happen at the 7th trump, not during the seals.

There is one second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord at the 6th seal. The great tribulation is over when the 6th seal is opened. Jesus sends His angels for a harvest. All return to heaven for the marriage supper..........this is the great multitude in heaven in Rev 7 and Rev 19.

Jesus returns with the armies of heaven at the end of Rev 19. Armageddon happens. The seventh trumpet sounds and Jesus set His feet on the mount of Olives.......the second advent.

 

[ewq1938]

Let me make sure I have your viewpoint straight. When the 1st 4 seals are opened the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse are not released. When the 5th seal is opened, the great tribulation is not on the earth. And when the 6th seal is opened Jesus does not return immediately after the tribulation of those days and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth like the scripture says.

But when the 7th seal is opened, suddenly, we have an actionable seal.

Wrong. All the events of the seals are future to the openings. Theya re prophecy just as it was prophecy when Christ spoke of teh same basic events on the mount of Olives. None happened when he spoke of them, and none happen when the seals are opened. The actions are only in the trumps. The seals are showing events of the trumps.

And that awesome action, overpowering action is silence in heaven. You can't possibly believe this. Are you looking through my camera on the computer and seeing if I believe this nonsense. You can't believe this cherry picking can you?

And then the trumpets and vials of God wrath.......are they actionable or not?

Seals are INFORMATION, trumps and vials are ACTIONS. The wrath of God is not at two separate times, the 6th seal and the 7th trump. That alone should tell you both speak of the same timeframe.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul has a vision of what will happen in the seals. However, when the seals are actually opened, what Paul sees in his vision is going to happen.

...going to happen during the trumps. The seals are not unique events separate from the trumps.

There is one second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord at the 6th seal.

No, at the 7th trump which the 6th seal is speaking of.

The great tribulation is over when the 6th seal is opened.

Nope. It was opened long ago and is showing what will happen long in the future.

 

[The Light]

...going to happen during the trumps. The seals are not unique events separate from the trumps.

False and totally illogical and unscriptural

The trumpets are within the 7th seal as are the 7 vials.

No, at the 7th trump which the 6th seal is speaking of.

The 7th trumpet cannot be the 6th seal as it is within the 7th seal.

Nope. It was opened long ago and is showing what will happen long in the future.

No seals are opened as of yet...........but soon.

 

[ewq1938]

False and totally illogical and unscriptural

The trumpets are within the 7th seal as are the 7 vials.

No, they are separate.

The 7th trumpet cannot be the 6th seal as it is within the 7th seal.

Nope. The seals show what things happen in the trumps. The 7th seal is only the silence. It does not "contain" the trumpets. Once all seals are opened, then the trumpets are given to the angels.

No seals are opened as of yet...........but soon.

No, clearly Jesus opened all of the seals at one specific timeframe, likely as soon as he had ascended. That's why at first no one worthy was found, because he had not arrived yet and when he does, he is described as a slain Lamb inferring he had not long before been slain.

 

[The Light]

No, they are separate.

The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God.

Nope. The seals show what things happen in the trumps.

The first 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24
The 5th seal is the great tribulation
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest before the 7th seal is opened.
The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Tribulation is when believers are killed for their faith. Wrath is when God punishes unbelievers.

Everything fits perfectly together. The things Johns see in Revelation is the things that Jesus tells us about in Matthew 24.

The 7th seal is only the silence. It does not "contain" the trumpets. Once all seals are opened, then the trumpets are given to the angels.

I don't even know how you think like this. I can't compute.

Everything that is mentioned in the 1st seal will happen in the 1st seal
Everything that is mentioned in the 2nd seal will happen in the 2nd seal
Everything that is mentioned in the 3rd seal will happen in the 3rd seal
Everything that is mentioned in the 4th seal will happen in the 4th seal
Everything that is mentioned in the 5th seal will happen in the 5th seal
Everything that is mentioned in the 6th seal will happen in the 6th seal

But now we get to the 7th seal................the day of Gods wrath. And you want to say the 7th is silence in heaven. Forget about the trumpets and vials of wrath.....................the 7th is silence to you.

All I can do is chuckle, because that makes no sense whatsoever.

No, clearly Jesus opened all of the seals at one specific timeframe, likely as soon as he had ascended. That's why at first no one worthy was found, because he had not arrived yet and when he does, he is described as a slain Lamb inferring he had not long before been slain.

Again. None of the seals are opened or you would know who the rider on the white horse is.

 

[ewq1938]

The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God.

Nope. Only the vials are called God's wrath. The only trumpet associated with the wrath is the 7th, Rev 11 saying God's wrath has come after the 7th has sounded. That is when teh vials of wrath are poured.

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Everything that is mentioned in the 1st seal will happen in the 1st seal
Everything that is mentioned in the 2nd seal will happen in the 2nd seal
Everything that is mentioned in the 3rd seal will happen in the 3rd seal
Everything that is mentioned in the 4th seal will happen in the 4th seal
Everything that is mentioned in the 5th seal will happen in the 5th seal
Everything that is mentioned in the 6th seal will happen in the 6th seal

Wrong. Only visions of the future are seen when the seals are opened.

But now we get to the 7th seal................the day of Gods wrath.

God's wrath was shown in the 6th seal not the 7th. You are not consistent.

And you want to say the 7th is silence in heaven. Forget about the trumpets and vials of wrath.....................the 7th is silence to you.

No, it is what the scripture says:

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Have you ever even read this verse before?

All I can do is chuckle, because that makes no sense whatsoever.

It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand it. Maybe in 20 years it will make sense.

 

[The Light]

Nope. Only the vials are called God's wrath. The only trumpet associated with the wrath is the 7th, Rev 11 saying God's wrath has come after the 7th has sounded. That is when teh vials of wrath are poured.





Wrong. Only visions of the future are seen when the seals are opened.





God's wrath was shown in the 6th seal not the 7th. You are not consistent.





No, it is what the scripture says:

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Have you ever even read this verse before?




It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand it. Maybe in 20 years it will make sense.

LOL. Maybe one of these days you will come to find out that the Great Tribulation that is brought against believers is not the same thing as the wrath of God that is brought against unbelievers.