The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, if you think it would benefit me to get a deeper understanding of the Amil view of NHNE, then how about we start with the Amil interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:17.

2 Corinthians 5:17(NIV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

If the new creation isn’t NHNE, then what is it?

That's not a good translation of that verse. Here's a better translation of that verse:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This is not referring to "the new creation", as in the NHNE, it is referring to any individual any individual who is in Christ being made a new creature/creation because of the Holy Spirit having come to dwell in him or her.

How do you equate us being made new spiritually with being in the NHNE which will be a new physical reality in the future when there is no more death, crying, sorrow or pain (Rev 21:4)? People still experience death, crying sorrow and pain, so we are not currently in the NHNE.

 

[grafted branch]

That's not a good translation of that verse. Here's a better translation of that verse:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This is not referring to "the new creation", as in the NHNE, it is referring to any individual any individual who is in Christ being made a new creature/creation because of the Holy Spirit having come to dwell in him or her.

How do you equate us being made new spiritually with being in the NHNE which will be a new physical reality in the future when there is no more death, crying, sorrow or pain (Rev 21:4)? People still experience death, crying sorrow and pain, so we are not currently in the NHNE.

Ok, I have no issues with 2 Corinthians 5:17 referring directly to salvation. That verse also states old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new. All things includes both Jerusalem and heaven and earth. All those things become new when a person is saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok, I have no issues with 2 Corinthians 5:17 referring directly to salvation. That verse also states old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new.

That is for the believers who has been saved, not for the entire earth. As indicated in Revelation 21:1, the new heavens and new earth will not become a reality until the current heaven and earth pass away first. You can't get around that even though you try, anyway.

All things includes both Jerusalem and heaven and earth. All those things become new when a person is saved.

What are you trying to do here, claim that the new heaven and new earth is something that applies only to individual believers? You think I have my own new heaven and new earth and you have your own new heaven and new earth? I can't comprehend how you think. Revelation 21:4 says the new heavens and new earth will be a place where there's no more death, crying, sorrow or pain. Do you not think you will die? Do you not ever experience any crying, sorrow or pain? Of course you do. So, the old things that pass away for someone who has been saved are the old way of thinking which involves wanting to do your own thing instead of submitting to God.

 

[grafted branch]

As indicated in Revelation 21:1, the new heavens and new earth will not become a reality until the current heaven and earth pass away first. You can't get around that even though you try, anyway.

Why do you keep saying that when it’s clear Revelation 21:1 doesn’t preclude a NHNE existing before OHOE is destroyed. Can you at least show some verses that clearly state your view?

Revelation 21:4 says the new heavens and new earth will be a place where there's no more death, crying, sorrow or pain. Do you not think you will die?

Right, that’s why I said the OHOE exists at the same time NHNE exists.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you keep saying that when it’s clear Revelation 21:1 doesn’t preclude a NHNE existing before OHOE is destroyed. Can you at least show some verses that clearly state your view?

That verse does clearly state my view. Are you actually reading it?

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The new heavens and new earth does not appear until "the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" first. It can't be any more clear. If you need more than this to see it, then I think it's hopeless for you to understand it.

2 Peter 3:10-13 also supports my view, but I've posted that passage already before many times.

Right, that’s why I said the OHOE exists at the same time NHNE exists.

What? How does Revelation 21:4 support that notion? There clearly is still death, crying, sorrow or pain, so the NHNE does not yet exist. I can't believe I'm even arguing about such a simple concept. If you can't understand this...wow.

 

[grafted branch]

2 Peter 3:10-13 also supports my view, but I've posted that passage already before many times.

2 Peter 3 is referring to New Jerusalem coming down, not that it didn’t currently exist. As I quoted in the past, John 14:2 says Jesus went to prepare a place. That place has been created it just hasn’t come down, it hasn’t become a physical reality for us yet.

What? How does Revelation 21:4 support that notion? There clearly is still death, crying, sorrow or pain, so the NHNE does not yet exist. I can't believe I'm even arguing about such a simple concept. If you can't understand this...wow.

Well now you know why I have to reject the Amil view on this. Amil folks apparently have trouble accepting that Jesus did actually prepare a place for us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Peter 3 is referring to New Jerusalem coming down, not that it didn’t currently exist. As I quoted in the past, John 14:2 says Jesus went to prepare a place. That place has been created it just hasn’t come down, it hasn’t become a physical reality for us yet.


Well now you know why I have to reject the Amil view on this. Amil folks apparently have trouble accepting that Jesus did actually prepare a place for us.

This is hopeless. You have been deluded by false preterist teaching and it's sad to see.

 

[grafted branch]

This is hopeless. You have been deluded by false preterist teaching and it's sad to see.

Yes, I think the same about you, that you have been deluded by the a false Amil teachings.

I guess one of us is wrong but that’s how it goes, we both have to be true to what we see the Bible teaching us. What would be problematic would be for someone to be so arrogant to think they are 100% correct and not recognize that none of us has a perfect understanding.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I think the same about you, that you have been deluded by the a false Amil teachings.

I guess one of us is wrong but that’s how it goes, we both have to be true to what we see the Bible teaching us. What would be problematic would be for someone to be so arrogant to think they are 100% correct and not recognize that none of us has a perfect understanding.

I don't think that about myself, by the way. I don't have a perfect understanding. The problem, in my view, is not that you are not 100% correct, but that you are not even 50% correct because of being deceived by false preterist teaching.

 

[WPM]

WARNING BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
The REAL heretics are those who REJECT the actual Bible Scripture as written.

Who were the FOUNDING FATHERS of the early 1st century Christian Church that were all believers per Scripture that Jesus at His return will begin His reign for a "thousand years" with His elect over the nations with His "rod of iron"??

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Christ's 1st century Christian Church was built upon the FOUNDATION of His Apostles, God's Old Testament prophets, with Lord Jesus Christ Himself as its Chief Corner Stone.

So those who MOCK that FOUNDATION, what are they most likely following? Definitely not Christ Jesus and His early Church!

You are incapable of refuting the Op because it is watertight. Premils cannot fight historic evidence.

 

[Davy]

Just to show there are several liars on this forum that hate the Biblical written literal "thousand years" future reign by Lord Jesus when He returns... some of those liars have even tried to establish Justin Martyr as a believer on men's theory of Amillennialism, when instead Martyr recognized Christ's future "thousand years" as being literal...

Justin Martyr:​

“For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth] and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” Dialogue with Trypho LXXX, p.239​

That above what Justin Martyr said reveals that he actually was a Premillennialist!

I've noticed several so-called scholars have website posts trying to push man's false Amill theories. They make false claims that believing Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 to mean a literal 1,000 years was not believed by the early Church fathers. The above quote puts those false scholars to shame.

Tertiullian (160-230):

“But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, ‘letdown from heaven,’ which the apostle also calls ‘our mother from above;’ and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicts of it that it is really a city in heaven.’’​

And Lactantius (A.D. 250-330):

“But when the thousand years shall be completed, the world shall he renewed by God, and the heavens shall be folded together, and the earth shall be changed, and God shall transform men into the similitude of angels, and they shall be white as snow; and they shall always be employed in the sight of the Almighty, and shall make offerings to their Lord, and serve Him for ever.”​

Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea:

Ecclesiastical History (III, 39), "Among other things he says that a thousand years will elapse after the resurrection of the dead and there will be a corporal establishment of Christ’s Kingdom on this earth" (The Apostolic Fathers in The Fathers Of The Church, edited by Ludwig Schopp, et. al., translated by Francis X. Glimm, Joseph M. F. Marique, and Gerald G. Walsh, Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1962, I, p. 378).​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just to show there are several liars on this forum that hate the Biblical written literal "thousand years" future reign by Lord Jesus when He returns... some of those liars have even tried to establish Justin Martyr as a believer on men's theory of Amillennialism, when instead Martyr recognized Christ's future "thousand years" as being literal...

Justin Martyr:​

“For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth] and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” Dialogue with Trypho LXXX, p.239​

That above what Justin Martyr said reveals that he actually was a Premillennialist!

LOL!!! Your reading comprehension skills are absolutely horrible. NO ONE said that Justin Martyr was an Amillennialist. Show me where anyone said that? You can't!

What WPM and I have shown is that Justin Martyr, in his "Dialogue with Trypho," said this:

"I and many others are of this opinion, and believe that such will take place...but, on the other hand, many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise". - Justin Martyr

So, what he said is that "many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise" than his Premillennial beliefs. Obviously, that would be many Amillennialists who disagreed with Justin Martyr's Premillennial beliefs. And he called them "true Christians". You, on the other hand, try to claim that Amilleninailsts are not even Christians, which is utterly ridiculous. Since when has one's end times view been a requirement for salvation? Never.

I've noticed several so-called scholars have website posts trying to push man's false Amill theories. They make false claims that believing Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 to mean a literal 1,000 years was not believed by the early Church fathers.

Show us what you're talking about. Who are these people that you're talking about? Give us some quotes from them. I've never seen anyone claim that none of the early church fathers believed that. Why would an Amill even want to claim that? The fact of the matter is that there were various beliefs back then just as there are now. It's silly to think that all Christians were ever in complete agreement on this topic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are incapable of refuting the Op because it is watertight. Premils cannot fight historic evidence.

That's why he has to resort to lying that all of the early church fathers were premillennialists. He can't refute our belief with scripture, so he has to resort to those lies instead. It's absolutely pathetic.

 

[WPM]

That's why he has to resort to lying that all of the early church fathers were premillennialists. He can't refute our belief with scripture, so he has to resort to those lies instead. It's absolutely pathetic.

There is nothing he writes can be trusted. It is clear he has never studied the subject. He is way out of his depth. He makes it up as he goes. He has zero historic evidence.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is nothing he writes can be trusted. It is clear he has never studied the subject. He is way out of his depth. He makes it up as he goes. He has zero historic evidence.

Absolutely. What he does here by sharing his uninformed nonsense would be like one of us going to a rocket scientist forum and pretending that we know far more than the rocket scientists who post there.

Also, how can someone with his terrible reading comprehension skills be trusted? He thought we said that Justin Martyr was an Amillennialist. Not even close.

 

[WPM]

Absolutely. What he does here by sharing his uninformed nonsense would be like one of us going to a rocket scientist forum and pretending that we know far more than the rocket scientists who post there.

Also, how can someone with his terrible reading comprehension skills be trusted? He thought we said that Justin Martyr was an Amillennialist. Not even close.

Like Scripture, what they attribute to history and what is reality are day and night.