SATAN, NOT BOUND YET

[TribulationSigns]

I agree. I don't believe any of the time periods referenced in the book of Revelation are meant to be taken literally. The purpose of the book is to reveal spiritual truths about things that occur during the New Testament time period and not to tell us exactly when certain things will happen or for exactly how long they will happen. Most Premills don't understand this.

Very good. Glad to see us agree on something.

I basically agree, but it does reference 7 actual churches that existed in the first century in the Roman province of Asia. So, I hope you're not trying to say that they weren't actual churches or anything like that. While some of the messages in Revelation 2 and 3 were specifically in relation to things happening in those seven churches back then, some of the messages apply to the whole church. Such as any mention of anything relating to those who overcome. That applies to the whole church in all generations.

Seven is the number of totality or completion. God is talking to His messengers of Church, INCLUDING us for we are his messengers of the Church. God is encouraging us and warning us from fall and repent. I hope you did not think God was talking about literal angels here. Again, seven is a number used throughout scripture. We read in revelation where there are seven horns, seven vials, seven kings, seven mountains, seven heads, seven plagues, seven crowns, seven thunders, seven trumpets, seven eyes, seven spirits, seven seals, seven lamps, seven stars, etc., So seven is totality or completion of whatever is in view. Not about actual 7 churches in Turkey.

I don't agree with everything you said here, but I do agree fully with your last sentence. It's not worth arguing about the rest. We're arguing enough already elsewhere about a different topic.

Okay, I will explain anyway. Pity I have to divide it into two parts because of length.

First, I believe that tribulation starts and progresses gradually. It becomes greater as more and more Christians fall away from the true faith to become part of Satan's army. Second, they are tormented by the word of God and they are hurt in their spiritual condition by its judgment. The hurt the false prophets inflict is spiritual as they are seduced. Our witness of the Word is like heaping coals of fire upon their head because of their refusal to receive the truth that God's witnesses bring in love. Remember, these are unsaved people "being deceived" by false doctrines straight from the spirit from the pit of Hell. That's the symbolism in the imagery coming from the smoke of the bottomless pit. True believers know these as spirits of serpents and scorpions that will hurt the church, but those who are deceived by them do not see them that way. They see them as Christian pastors and teachers with love and compassion, and as righteous Pastors (2nd Corinthians 11:14-14), caring shepherds, and magnanimous ministers. For example like Joel Osteen of Lakewood Church. In reality, they are truly wolves in sheep's clothing that are come to devour the sheep. Yes, I believe that they do NOT know that they are being deceived or tormented in God's judgment upon them. That is the point of God's judgment upon his unfaithful church and they know it now: E.g.:

Isaiah 42:24-25

• "Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.
• Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

Just as those who were God's people were being burned and tormented in His judgment upon them, and yet they didn't know it! Likewise, this is what is happening to these people of Revelation 9 who also are God's people tormented in the flame and they don't realize it! The same judgment of God, on the same people of God, in the same principle of God, same torment upon them (different imagery), and the same reaction to it. That the people can be hurt by this torment of the serpent/scorpion (which is their judgment of God), and yet the true believers cannot, is the same type Biblical imagery we read of in Mark chapter 16. There God says that all those who believe and are baptized in Christ will drink deadly poison and it would not hurt them. Of course, this is not real physical poison, it's the spiritual poison or wormwood of false doctrine come as refreshing waters. And it's the same principle with those who can be hurt by it and those who can't. The deadly poison is symbolic of the false doctrines of devils that will destroy those who are not truly sealed or secured in Christ. But to those truly sealed/secured by the Spirit of God, none of the poisons of these locusts or serpent bites can hurt them. The hurt in view in both these chapters illustrates the power of the seducing/deceiving spirit of Satan. It is a power that cannot hurt or harm the true saints because they are just, but will wreak havoc in deceiving "professing" Christians. Christians who, in the stubbornness of their own will, will not receive the true love that comes in truth. That is to say, the spirit of seduction or deception that causes those who are Christian "in name only," to fall away from the faith. That is the "hurt" they suffer.

1st Timothy 4:1-2

• "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
• Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

This spirit that hurts those that give heed to them, cannot hurt true Christians. The true believers, sealed by the Spirit of promise, will try / test / prove the spirits that they are not deceived by them. The pretenders in Christ who fall away will not bother to try men’s words by scripture believe that their teachers are great men or women of God. They will ignore Scripture (God), their conscience being seared so that they are able to believe whatever they want regardless of what the Bible actually says. Whatever is agreeable to them, whatever is smooth and less offensive to them, whatever is their desire to believe. This is what the lukeware church is like that God warned them to repent or face judgment. The spirit that seduces/deceives does so in a way where the way of truth is evil spoken of (reviled) and they receive it as gospel. The truth that we preach that seems so unloving and ungodly to them. While the spirit that comes from the pit, through feigned words of God, appears so understanding and compassionate. Yet it is a spirit that causes pain as that of a scorpion when he stings a man. In other words, injecting his poison, even as the serpent. This is the hurt of the plague of locust scorpions from the pit.

Revelation 9:4-5

• "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
• And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."

This torment of the serpent/scorpion is the poison of deception, and confusion of false doctrines along with the word of God from the saints, which is a torment of the truth of their judgment. The professed Christians wanted us to stop preaching the truth and God allowed this for a short season as a judgment:

Rev 11:7-10
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Satan deceives so many professed Christians (those without seal of God) and their army got so big that they can over come the True and faithful Witnesses and kill them. Not physical killing but silence our testimony. They will rejoice that we are no longer in their way and do whatever they want to do with their doctrines in their churches. This is how we can see the revealtion of the Wicked in those people and come out realizing that God is judging them so that they will believe a lie. God does not want us to stay here to risk being deceived too (but its impossible if we are already seal). Makes sense?

(end of part one)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Part Two)

Back to the point... to find the answer to our question of this hurt, we compare scripture with scripture and discover HOW it is that the "true Believers" that are sealed, cannot be hurt by these scorpions from the pit? Then, and only then will we know how those who only "profess being saved" and sealed of God, can be hurt by it. And that leads us to Luke chapter 10.

Luke 10:18-20

• "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
• Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
• Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

Satan falling from heaven at the Cross is by the work of Christ's death and resurrection signifying that through Christ, Satan has no more power to sting and poison us (true believers). By our being sealed or secured in the Holy Spirit, God preserves us from the poisonous power of Satan. These scriptures symbolize the evil spirits cannot bring God's witnesses into subjection to them. Because when we are regenerated and sealed/secured of God, the spirit of the enemy cannot harm us. So by this, we can understand that those who can be (and are) hurt by the scorpions in Revelation, are those who do not have the spirit of Christ unto judgment, to discern deception. Thus we know what this hurt is. The power of the enemy (the power to hurt), symbolized by the serpent/scorpion, is the power of the devil to bring them fully under his rule. For example, to make them (professing Christians) fall away, apostatize, forsake the truth, depart from the faith. This is the "hurt" that these seducing spirits have power to do. ...and will do. This is how they cannot find salvation! For the day of salvation is over with all of us, Elect, being secured FIRST before Satan is loosened with his spirits having power to hurt men once again!

Hope this helps.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

More true Amill than you ever been, Mr-I-Believe-the-Olivet-Discourse-was-about-the-first-century.

LOL. What a lie. I only believe a small part of the Olivet Discourse is about what happened in 70 AD and most is not. But, you're not honest enough to say so. Instead, you had to dishonestly give the impression that I believe the entire thing is about the first century. Pathetic.

Jesus specifically said that the temple building standing at that time would be destroyed and that is what spawned the disciples' questions. So, it should be obvious that at least a small part of the Olivet Discourse would be about that. Believing that does not make me any less of an Amill than you. That's ridiculous.

We disagreed on this. Shall we move on?

Yes, please. I have no interest in repeating the same discussion we already had.

No, you don't get it. This doesn't make any sense to me.

So be it. Your view doesn't make any sense to me, either. What can we do about that? Probably nothing. So, let's move on.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Very good. Glad to see us agree on something.

LOL. You know that we have agreed on a number of things before, right? But, when we disagree we make sure we let each other know about it, don't we? So, that's what we tend to remember more is our disagreements. But, we agree on plenty as well.

Seven is the number of totality or completion. God is talking to His messengers of Church, INCLUDING us for we are his messengers of the Church. God is encouraging us and warning us from fall and repent. I hope you did not think God was talking about literal angels here. Again, seven is a number used throughout scripture. We read in revelation where there are seven horns, seven vials, seven kings, seven mountains, seven heads, seven plagues, seven crowns, seven thunders, seven trumpets, seven eyes, seven spirits, seven seals, seven lamps, seven stars, etc., So seven is totality or completion of whatever is in view. Not about actual 7 churches in Turkey.

You're getting carried away here with the symbolism. Yes, seven is used symbolically sometimes to represent totality or completion, but not literally every number in the book is symbolic. It refers to seven actual churches which existed in the first century province of Asia and the number seven is not used symbolically there. I would say those seven churches represented scenarios that you can find in all churches, but they were seven actual churches that existed at the time.

It's absolutely ludicrous to deny that the book was addressed to seven actual churches that existed at the time John wrote the book. Those churches are even referenced in other places in the New Testament. For example, the church in Ephesus is obviously referenced in the book of Ephesians, but also in the book of Acts. So, why would you deny that it refers to actual churches? It's insane for you to do that, honestly. Also, there are literally seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials and not any more or less. So, you just allow yourself to get completely carried away with the symbolism to the point of apparently seeing every word in the book as being symbolic.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. What a lie. I only believe a small part of the Olivet Discourse is about what happened in 70 AD and most is not. But, you're not honest enough to say so. Instead, you had to dishonestly give the impression that I believe the entire thing is about the first century. Pathetic.

"Small part" of Discourse?? LOL. Not at all. It is a discourse FOR the New Testament congregation (after the fall of Old Testament congregation, stones (people of the congregation) falling, not about the physical temple in 70AD). Where there are spiritual war, spiritual famines, spiritual diseases, and earthquakes IN THE CHURCH right before Second Coming. Nothing to do with physical Judea in the first century at all, no matter how hard you try, even if you try with one verse out of the discourse.

Jesus specifically said that the temple building standing at that time would be destroyed and that is what spawned the disciples' questions. So, it should be obvious that at least a small part of the Olivet Discourse would be about that. Believing that does not make me any less of an Amill than you. That's ridiculous.

This was what the disciples thought so too with the physical temple and building, but this is NOT what Christ had in mind. Just as with the Pharisees and Scribes who thought Christ was talking about the physical temple being destroyed and in three days it would be rebuilt. No, the "stones" Christ talked about were the PEOPLE of the old testament congregation falling, just as we are the stones of the new testament building. We, the old and new testament people, are all the body of Christ's temple. Selah!

Yes, please. I have no interest in repeating the same discussion we already had.


So be it. Your view doesn't make any sense to me, either. What can we do about that? Probably nothing. So, let's move on.

Good.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Small part" of Discourse?? LOL. Not at all. It is a discourse FOR the New Testament congregation (after the fall of Old Testament congregation, stones (people of the congregation) falling, not about the physical temple in 70AD). Where there are spiritual war, spiritual famines, spiritual diseases, and earthquakes IN THE CHURCH right before Second Coming. Nothing to do with physical Judea in the first century at all, no matter how hard you try, even if you try with one verse out of the discourse.

Do you need some help with your reading comprehension skills? What I'm saying is that I only see a small part (yes, a small part...hello?) of the Olivet Discourse as being about 70 AD and the rest being related to the future second coming of Jesus Christ. What is hard to understand about this? I understand that you don't think any of the Olivet Discourse is about 70 AD, but you should not act as if I claim that all or most of it is about that, because I don't. So, calm down, buddy. You're overreacting to how I interpret it and acting like I'm a full preterist or something.

This was what the disciples thought so too with the physical temple and building, but this is NOT what Christ had in mind.

It clearly is what He had in mind because He specifically said directly in relation to the temple buildings that the disciples were marveling at.

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

How can you deny that He was talking about the destruction of the temple buildings when He specifically said "Seest thou these great buildings?" while proceeding to tell them that they would be destroyed, which would have astonished the disciples since they thought so highly of the temple as all Jews did.

He was clearly talking about the very same temple buildings that the disciples were talking about and He wanted to show them that they were nothing to marvel at since they were going to be destroyed. Naturally, they would ask for more details about that, and they did. And Jesus answered their question about that, but He spent far more time answering the other question about His coming and the end of the age.

Just as with the Pharisees and Scribes who thought Christ was talking about the physical temple being destroyed and in three days it would be rebuilt.

No, it isn't just like that. What do you think, when Jesus said "Seest though these great buildings", He was talking about His body?

No, the "stones" Christ talked about were the PEOPLE of the old testament congregation falling, just as we are the stones of the new testament building. We, the old and new testament people, are all the body of Christ's temple. Selah!

He said "Seest thou these great buildings" (plural), not "seest though this great building" (singular). You're ignoring what He actually said.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You're getting carried away here with the symbolism. Yes, seven is used symbolically sometimes to represent totality or completion, but not literally every number in the book is symbolic.

Really, so out of all sevens in the book of symbolic book of Revealation, you insisted that the 7 churches are literal? Facepalm.

It refers to seven actual churches which existed in the first century province of Asia and the number seven is not used symbolically there.

Just like you thought the stones of the temple building in the Olivet Discourse are literal, you also see the seven messengers of the churches as literal too? Facepalm.

It's absolutely ludicrous to deny that the book was addressed to seven actual churches that existed at the time John wrote the book. Those churches are even referenced in other places in the New Testament. For example, the church in Ephesus is obviously referenced in the book of Ephesians, but also in the book of Acts. So, why would you deny that it refers to actual churches? It's insane for you to do that, honestly. Also, there are literally seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials and not any more or less. So, you just allow yourself to get completely carried away with the symbolism to the point of apparently seeing every word in the book as being symbolic.

You misunderstood. The warnings to the seven Churches of Asia are not accompanied by a command to separate themselves and remove themselves from those who hold to this teaching because God is speaking to the "Church Universal" and telling them to remain faithful and not succumb to false teachings and doctrines of devils. God is talking to all "HIS CHURCH" that He will use to evangelize the world for the next 2000 years, including you and me. Selah!

So yes, my interpretation is not the correct interpretation, but God's interpretation sure enough is! And once searched out and understood circumspectly, we can say it is an absolute. So that Satan was bound at the cross, ABSOLUTELY! The Woman (Revelation 12) who gives birth to the Manchild represents congregation Israel, ABSOLUTELY! The seven Candlesticks represents the seven Churches, ABSOLUTELY! The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 represent the true believers in the Church, ABSOLUTELY! How can we say that ABSOLUTELY? Because it's God's interpretation, gleaned out of His Words Themselves, not out of our own private interpretations.

Moreover, it is axiomatic that when Christ speaks to the 12 Apostles, He's speaking to the whole Church in synergy!! The, "when ye," refers to all the Church! When Christ said to the 12 "watch, for ye know not when the Son of man cometh," He's talking to all of us, not just to the 12 standing there. If we were to think He only meant the 12 Apostles when He said "ye," then we're back to false doctrine of Preterism because He said to them to watch concerning His return. We need to consider these things "carefully."

Matthew 24:42-44

• "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
• But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
• Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

Christ was talking to the whole Church through the 12!!! That is the way God inspired His Holy Word written to teach us. All of scripture is written to someone, to the children of Israel, to Timothy, to the Romans, to a man named Philemon, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, to the seven Churches of Asia, to men named TribulationSigns and Spiritual Isralities, etc., etc., but it is ultimately for all of us. What would be the purpose of God recording in scripture his instruction to 1 (or 12) individuals except to instruct the Church?! When God told the children of Israel to obey His word and not turn to the right hand or to the left to avoid it, He was talking to all of us. When He told the Thessalonians of the man of sin, He was talking to all of us. If we start limiting scripture only to the individual people it is addressed, we will find ourselves without instruction!

Moreover, it's all academic, because Christ directs us back to the prophecy of Daniel in referring to this Abomination of desolation that causes them to flee to the mountains, and (speaking of parallel passages) it is quite evident that those prophesies refer to the end of the world and the second coming. NOT AD 70! I know it's easy to become confused with these prophecies, but that's why we have to search them out carefully. Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do you need some help with your reading comprehension skills? What I'm saying is that I only see a small part (yes, a small part...hello?) of the Olivet Discourse as being about 70 AD and the rest being related to the future second coming of Jesus Christ. What is hard to understand about this? I understand that you don't think any of the Olivet Discourse is about 70 AD, but you should not act as if I claim that all or most of it is about that, because I don't. So, calm down, buddy. You're overreacting to how I interpret it and acting like I'm a full preterist or something.

Well you do get Matthew 24:1-2 WRONG.... just like the Preterist of any sort!

It clearly is what He had in mind because He specifically said directly in relation to the temple buildings that the disciples were marveling at.

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

How can you deny that He was talking about the destruction of the temple buildings when He specifically said "Seest thou these great buildings?" while proceeding to tell them that they would be destroyed, which would have astonished the disciples since they thought so highly of the temple as all Jews did.

He was clearly talking about the very same temple buildings that the disciples were talking about and He wanted to show them that they were nothing to marvel at since they were going to be destroyed. Naturally, they would ask for more details about that, and they did. And Jesus answered their question about that, but He spent far more time answering the other question about His coming and the end of the age.

Ahem...

But the answer is, there were "LOTS" of stones left standing, one upon another after 70 AD. And many still left standing one upon another 2000 years later.

Hello?

Yes, that is true. Thus 70 AD cannot rationally be the fulfillment of that particular prophesy "IF" it was meant of the Physical buildings of the Temple being thrown down.

Mark 13:1-2

• "And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
• And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

And before you start rationalizing how those stones were not of the main Temple building like so many others, please pay careful attention that Christ spoke not only of the Temple, its buildings, but also of all the buildings of the ENTIRE Holy City Jerusalem.

Luke 19:41-44

• "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
• Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
• For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
• And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

Now, logically speaking, "IF" Christ was really addressing the physical stones of the Temple and the physical Holy City Jerusalem, then it is ridiculous to say 70 AD qualifies since we all know that many many stones are STILL left standing one upon another to this very day 2000+ years later. And "hyperbole" is just a word used when someone doesn't like exactly what Christ said! He was very specific, not one stone left standing one upon another. The "ONLY" Holy City and Temple that could meet that criteria is the corporate congregation of the old testament nation of Israel!!! Not the Physical building, but as they were the building of God to whom pertained the Covenants before the cross. But not after!

That should settle it, but of course it won't because a myriad of professing Christians (like you) choose to cling to these ideas supported by Josephus' writings and Church traditions as if they were gold. ..Well, his words aren't Gold, but God's word is. It always gets back to "authority" of God's word or man's.

Revelation 3:18

• "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

That's not physical gold you can purchase in the church, neither physical clothing nor eyesalve. But you know that. How is it you can discern the face of the sky, but can not discern the signs of the times?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Really, so out of all sevens in the book of symbolic book of Revealation, you insisted that the 7 churches are literal? Facepalm.

I said the seven seals, trumpets and vials are literally seven seals, trumpets an vials, also. You are unbelievable sometimes. Tehre is absolutely nothing to suggest that it's not talking about 7 actual churches which existed in the Roman province of Asia at that time. You have NOTHING to show otherwise. You know that there really was a church in Ephesus at that time, don't you? It is the church Paul wrote to in his letter to the Ephesians and that church is referenced in the book of Acts as well. but, you deny that the church of Ephesus in Revelation was a a literal church? Unbelievable nonsense coming from you. Double Facepalm.

The church of the Laodiceans is mentioned in Colossians 4:16, but you think the church of Laodicea in Revelation wasn't a literal church? Facepalm.

Look here. Just because it is talking about seven literal churches which existed back then doesn't mean everything in the book is only about them. Not at all. It has a few things that related directly to them that can be learned from by everyone ever since, but most of the book relates to the church as a whole.

Just like you thought the stones of the temple building in the Olivet Discourse are literal, you also see the seven messengers of the churches as literal too? Facepalm.

Of course. There is nothing to show otherwise. You certainly are failing to show otherwise. Double Facepalm.

So yes, my interpretation is not the correct interpretation, but God's interpretation sure enough is!

You are not the one to tell me what God's interpretation is. No matter what you say, you are sharing your own interpretation, not God's.

the purpose of God recording in scripture his instruction to 1 (or 12) individuals except to instruct the Church?! When God told the children of Israel to obey His word and not turn to the right hand or to the left to avoid it, He was talking to all of us. When He told the Thessalonians of the man of sin, He was talking to all of us. If we start limiting scripture only to the individual people it is addressed, we will find ourselves without instruction!

Moreover, it's all academic, because Christ directs us back to the prophecy of Daniel in referring to this Abomination of desolation that causes them to flee to the mountains, and (speaking of parallel passages) it is quite evident that those prophesies refer to the end of the world and the second coming. NOT AD 70! I know it's easy to become confused with these prophecies, but that's why we have to search them out carefully. Selah!

I do search them out carefully and don't draw the same conclusions as you do. So, it's not as if you search these things out carefully and I don't. Not so. So, searching these things out carefully does not guarantee that we will agree on these things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well you do get Matthew 24:1-2 WRONG.... just like the Preterist of any sort!

Your disdain for Preterism, which I share, clouds your vision. You get carried away with it to the point that you don't think you should agree with them about anything at all, which is just silly and ridiculous. They believe Jesus died and rose again, so should we not believe that? Your disdain for Preterism makes you think that no prophecy at all was fulfilled in 70 AD, which is totally ridiculous. Just because I believe one particular prophecy was fulfilled back then doesn't make me a Preterist. That is stupid. Preterists believe all of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled back then, but I believe most of it was not. So, you are clueless about what makes someone a Preterist.

Ahem...

But the answer is, there were "LOTS" of stones left standing, one upon another after 70 AD. And many still left standing one upon another 2000 years later.

Hello?

Hello? That is not true. The temple buildings were thoroughly destroyed. What evidence do you have to support that there were lots of stones of the temple building still standing upon another? And then you go to another extreme of insanity by claiming that is still true today? Are you kidding me? That is absolutely not true. Where you getting this nonsense from? Why do you just make things up? No stones of the temple building are still standing one upon another. Why would you make someting up like that? Are you that desperate to support your interpretation that you will just make things up in order to support it? That's pathetic.

Yes, that is true.

It's not true at all. You are telling a blatant lie here and it's just unbelievable to witness.

Thus 70 AD cannot rationally be the fulfillment of that particular prophesy "IF" it was meant of the Physical buildings of the Temple being thrown down.

Mark 13:1-2

• "And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
• And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

And before you start rationalizing how those stones were not of the main Temple building like so many others, please pay careful attention that Christ spoke not only of the Temple, its buildings, but also of all the buildings of the ENTIRE Holy City Jerusalem.

Luke 19:41-44

• "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
• Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
• For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
• And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

Now, logically speaking, "IF" Christ was really addressing the physical stones of the Temple and the physical Holy City Jerusalem, then it is ridiculous to say 70 AD qualifies since we all know that many many stones are STILL left standing one upon another to this very day 2000+ years later.

The whole city was destroyed. What evidence do you have that the stones standing upon another now were there since 70 AD? You're just making things up without having any evidence to back them up. It's ridiculous.

And "hyperbole" is just a word used when someone doesn't like exactly what Christ said! He was very specific, not one stone left standing one upon another.

Who said He was using hyperbole there? Not me. He did use hyperbole at times, but not there. Unless you provide some kind of evidence that the city was not completely destroyed back then, I have no reason to take you seriously here. The city was rebuilt, so that's why there are stones standing upon another now, but where is your evidence to show that any of them were standing since 70 AD?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Double Facepalm.

Facepalm.

Double Facepalm.

Triple Facepalm. You still don't get it.

I do search them out carefully and don't draw the same conclusions as you do.

Good for you, yet you are still got wrong conclusions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Triple Facepalm. You still don't get it.

Infinity Facepalm. I win. I'm going to bed now.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Tt's not true at all. You are telling a blatant lie here and it's just unbelievable to witness.

Again denial!

The whole city was destroyed. What evidence do you have that the stones standing upon another now were there since 70 AD? You're just making things up without having any evidence to back them up. It's ridiculous.

Wow... LOL! Denial on full display!

The city was rebuilt

so that's why there are stones standing upon another now, but where is your evidence to show that any of them were standing since 70 AD?

My view is a view based upon sound theology, not an assumption or a guess. It's a fact, which you would know if you bothered to get educated about what you are speaking of. Because anyone (even you) can go to Israel and see for themselves the stones of the city laid one on top of another that have stood the test of time. It's not even debatable that this is the truth. Even the proponents of your doctrine aren't so foolish as to deny this. ..instead, they take the tactic that "it doesn't matter," or "the city rebuilt with different stones", etc. because it really didn't literally mean not one stone.

I don't know how you define things, but in my dictionary, something readily observable today would be called an indisputable fact seen with our own eyes. It's not History or something written by others hundreds of years ago by biased reprobates like Josephus. But this is the typical irrational responses we get when people cannot deny the words of scripture concerning things. And in this case, even the physical facts.

The games you typically play, don't really work with truth. They only work when people fail to receive truth, ignore the obvious, and twist scriptures. i.e., the scriptures say not one stone would be left standing one upon another. You "claim" to take that literally as Jerusalem, bt then you can'y overcome the contradiction. You cannot reconcile the fact that in fact there are stones left standing, and so you are frustrated and flustered so that you change the subject to attempt to distract from that fact, or digress into nonsense. What next?

I know for a FACT that Christ did NOT weep for literal stones or for a physical city Jersuaalem, he wept for THE PEOPLE who were the allegorical stones and the city! Selah! It is "THEY" who would be brought to desolation or total ruin BY THEIR ABOMINATIONS, and laid even with the ground. They would never be the representation of theholy city and the Kingdom of God EVER AGAIN, Matthew 21:43. When Christ died, that changed the Holy Temple representation from the Old Covenant Israel to the New Covenant Israel signified by Christ being the new way into the Holiest of Holies.

Hebrews 10:1921

• "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
• By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
• And having an high priest over the house of God."

The stones of the old Temple were the Jews, the cornerstone of it was Christ who was rejected and therefore those stones were thrown down. NOT PHYSICAL STONES! Hello?! The new stones of the Holy Temple are the people of the New Covenant with Israel. This true destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem, the holy city, didn't occur in AD 70 as you believe, but at the cross! Period! And it was done by the death of Christ. Have you forgotten that when the Jews asked for a "SIGN" and Christ said "destroy the Temple and in 3 days I will raise it up", He gave them their sign! When the Temple veil was torn in two and the rocks rent, that "symbolized" a new and living way, a New Temple (a rebuilding, or as Biblically put, to "Build again" the city and sanctuary). And in order for the building again to take place, there would have to have been the ruin of the city and Temple before. Selah! That desolation of the city did take place! Not one stone was left one upon another in that city that had to be physical built again. It was by their abominations that the city was destroyed and the Kingdom was taken from them and given to another...IN THREE DAYS. Not 40 years later by Romans! DUH!

Regardless....I know, you'll be whining about how unloving and unchristian I am (in lieu of a Biblical retort). Better you put your nose into the Bible and reconcile your contradictions!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Infinity Facepalm. I win. I'm going to bed now.

Hahahahaha. Go to sleep. You needed it before you read my post above in the morning with a cup of coffee!

 

[Davy]

Yes... WHEN Jesus returns....

Those references never says that he confined to the bottom less put yet. 1 Peter 5:8 plainly tells us he is roaming about seeking whom he may devour.

I don't think you understand about the heavenly realm. For centuries the early Church thought that the pit of hell was literally in the earth, simply because of how God's Word describes it as being low. Yet Rev.12:7-9 shows when that war in heaven happens, Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven, not from inside the earth.

So where is his place in heaven even right now that he roams to and fro from? the pit of hell, which Rev.9:11 showed you he is the king over and as the angel of the bottomless pit. When that war in heaven happens, Satan and his angels will be kicked out of heaven and instead into our earthly dimension. He is coming here, on earth, in plain sight, with his angels. That will be for the time of the coming "great tribulation". Then when Jesus returns at His 2nd coming, that is when Satan will be cast in chains in his pit prison for the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

 

[Davy]

Historically, scripture shows that the Church began on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit lighted upon the disciples. Act 2. Started with 3000 and added thereto. It was the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel to the world. Christ is the foundation and Head of that Church which was built upon by the disciples and all Christians hence forth. It is this Church which will endure to the end, and Satan cannot prevail against it. This is how it has been recognized throughout Church history.

Brethren in Christ, I had to laugh at that post because it's the same ole' argument from men's traditions about when Christ's Church began, when those go around in circles on that while WILLFULLLY DISREGARDING Apostle Paul in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 about The Gospel having first been preached to Abraham, and Abraham believed, and it was counted to Abraham as righteous. Paul thus says all those of FAITH are "the children of Abraham."

Apostle Paul in Hebrews 7 even revealed that the Melchizedek who met Abraham was Christ Jesus, and per Genesis 14, Melchizedek offered Abraham "bread and wine".

So where would Abraham's FAITH on The Gospel of Jesus Christ be in relation to Christ's Church? and that even before... Lord Jesus came in the flesh to die on the cross?

 

[WPM]

Why do you waste time trying to comment on anything related to Amil when you don't have any understanding of what we actually believe?


No Amils believe that. You are clueless. If someone says that we can only be saved during the thousand years and not during Satan's little season then, to me, that's like saying Christ doesn't reign and no one reigns with Him during Satan's little season. But, scripture teaches that He will reign until the last enemy, death, is defeated (1 Cor 15:25-26), and that occurs at the end of Satan's little season, not at the beginning.

It is not that he is clueless. He knows what he's doing. He is deliberately misrepresenting Amillennialism on these public forums. That is the only way that he can give any credence to his false teaching.

 

[Rightglory]

Brethren in Christ, I had to laugh at that post because it's the same ole' argument from men's traditions about when Christ's Church began, when those go around in circles on that while WILLFULLLY DISREGARDING Apostle Paul in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 about The Gospel having first been preached to Abraham, and Abraham believed, and it was counted to Abraham as righteous. Paul thus says all those of FAITH are "the children of Abraham."

Apostle Paul in Hebrews 7 even revealed that the Melchizedek who met Abraham was Christ Jesus, and per Genesis 14, Melchizedek offered Abraham "bread and wine".

So where would Abraham's FAITH on The Gospel of Jesus Christ be in relation to Christ's Church? and that even before... Lord Jesus came in the flesh to die on the cross?

when one needs to fall back on the old tripe of "men's traditions" it is always the one making that remark is of a man's tradition.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't think you understand about the heavenly realm. For centuries the early Church thought that the pit of hell was literally in the earth, simply because of how God's Word describes it as being low. Yet Rev.12:7-9 shows when that war in heaven happens, Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven, not from inside the earth.

So where is his place in heaven even right now that he roams to and fro from? the pit of hell, which Rev.9:11 showed you he is the king over and as the angel of the bottomless pit. When that war in heaven happens, Satan and his angels will be kicked out of heaven and instead into our earthly dimension. He is coming here, on earth, in plain sight, with his angels. That will be for the time of the coming "great tribulation". Then when Jesus returns at His 2nd coming, that is when Satan will be cast in chains in his pit prison for the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

What is the logic in satan attacking his own people? Look what the text says.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Especially in light of this.

Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

If satan is the one behind all of the above, obviously he would be hoping to hurt men which have the seal of God in their foreheads, and not men which don't. Clearly then, God is the one behind what is happening here, not satan. And besides, nowhere in Revelation 9 does it say satan is the king of this pit.

Take the following, for instance.


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


All of these are titles for satan. If Abaddon and Apollyon are also titles for satan, why weren't they mentioned here?

Something else to keep in mind, especially for Amils. Nowhere in ch 9 does it say one way or the other where the king of the pit is. Just because the pit might have a king, that doesn't have to mean the king is locked away in the pit with these locusts. Amils, or at least some Amils, assume the king is locked in the pit with these locusts, and that this king is satan. Once again, what is the logic in satan coming out of the pit then tormenting, via these locusts, his own people, the unsaved? That is nonsensical no matter how you look at it.

Verse 4 says this---And it was commanded them. Who should we assume gave these orders? Obviously, satan didn't give these orders. As if it makes sense that satan would be giving out orders such as--- And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree--let alone what the remainder of that verse states. IOW, it is equally nonsensical if satan is the one that gave these orders.

Maybe I just look at things wrong sometimes, yet, in my mind, we have to at least use a little common sense before we decide how this should be understood, how that should be understood, etc. And the little common sense I might have tells me that Revelation 9 has zero to do with satan being behind any of these things.

And I'm just going to have to come right out and say it. Only someone with doctrinal bias could possibly disagree with me here. Whether that person is Amil or Premil.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is not that he is clueless. He knows what he's doing. He is deliberately misrepresenting Amillennialism on these public forums. That is the only way that he can give any credence to his false teaching.

I'm fine with you having that opinion, but we can't know for certain if it's deliberate or not. It could be, but I think he just can't bring himself to look at things from the Amill perspective, so that's why he ends up misrepresenting Amill so often. He can only think of Satan's binding as a literal binding that completely incapacitates Satan, so he tries to refute our beliefs based on that understanding of Satan's binding. Which ends up being a straw man argument because he needs to address what we believe based on our understanding of Satan's binding, not his.