What prophecies regarding Israel’s regathering have already been or are being fulfilled?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Berean

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2024
505
261
63
Midwest
www.kingdomherald.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
  1. The fact that they would be regathered to the land (Isa. 43:5-6 & Jer 30:3), never again to be removed (Amos 9:14) on the (millennial) day (Isa 11:11)
  2. First Jewish settlement called Petiteekvah (meaning, “door of hope” – Hosea 2:15) established in 1878 A.D. following permission from Berlin Congress of Nations.
  3. Fishers (Zionism) & Hunters (Nazi Persecution). (Jer 16:15,16). We suggest that God allowed Nazi persecution to drive the Jews back to their land, but that Satan attempted to thwart God’s plan by using this same persecution to exterminate the Jews (the earthly seed). Although God permitted this evil for a time, he finally intervened to prevent the Jewish extermination from continuing, by turning the war against Germany; thereby demonstrating that God’s intervention and care were necessary for the protection and preservation of the Jewish people. Every Jew who died in the Holocaust will come back to joy and happiness in the resurrection and with the realization of their need for a kingdom ruled by God, where all mankind can be happy and safe.
  4. Remnant return weeping & crying after Holocaust (Jer 31:7-9).
  5. No longer servants in other lands in that (millennial) day (Jer 30:8)
  6. Land reclamation (Amos 9:14; Isa 35:1,2; Isa. 61:4). Rebuilding of cities, clearing swamps, irrigating deserts & farming the land. In the past centuries, Israel was a barren wasteland and filled with swamps and deserts. Now God has transformed Israel into a thriving farming country which exports much of its crops and is one of the most technologically advanced nations on the planet.
  7. The city of Jerusalem restored to the Jewish people (Zech 12:6) in that (Millennial) day.
  8. Other nations (trees) springing to life along with Israel (fig tree) (Luke 21:29-30) points to nearness of the kingdom. (figs=Israel Jer 24 & Matt 21:19). With the disintegration of European empires, colonies declared independence and became independent nations.
 
  • Love
Reactions: AngelicArcher

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
7,901
2,963
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
^^^^

What prophecies regarding Israel’s regathering have already been or are being fulfilled?​


I would suggest that the gathering of Israel by God to Himself has not yet begun. Why/how can I make this claim?

  1. Firstly, the Prophecy in Exodus 20:4-6 has not yet reached its completion which is the end of the fourth age of the existence of the nation of Israel from the time of the birth of Isaac.
  2. Secondly, God has not yet dealt with the beasts of the field to give Israel peace in the various places where they are living scattered throughout the whole earth.
  3. Thirdly, in all of the prophecies concerning God's gathering of the Israelites to Himself, the prophecies speak of placing them in His fertile field/soil where they are living scattered throughout the whole earth.
  4. Fourthly, Paul wrote that when the time of the Gentiles trampling God's sanctuary and His Earthly hosts, has run with respect to the 2,300 years allotted for them to do so to the allocated time period's completion, then after that all of Israel will be saved.
I would contend that the time of the above four points concerning God's gathering of Israel to Himself has not yet begun as, from my reading of the Scriptures, the sixth age for mankind has not yet been completed. I would suggest that the six age, from the time of Adam's creation, has another twenty or so years yet to run before it reaches its conclusion before the seventh age will commence.

Shalom
 

The PuP

New Member
Nov 7, 2022
38
7
8
62
puxico
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think the biggest thing that throws prophetic understanding awry, is the promise made to Abraham and his seed. Where people go wrong is they misunderstand that promise to be an... everlasting promise of possession. But it should be understood that it is a promise of everlasting possession.
They were expelled from the land by the Babylonians and Romans because they couldn't keep the Sinai Covenant because it was only written on the minds... through the teaching of every man his brother, that which God had written on tables of stone. They truly possessed the land, but it was the process of time that revealed that it was only a temporary possession and not the everlasting one promised to Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Christ is the seed to whom God made promise to Abraham.
When it comes time for the SEED to inherit it for an everlasting possession, this is what the new covenant is all about. When God implements this new covenant, WITH THE WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL (AND JUDAH), they will never be rooted up out of their land, because that time will be when God writes his laws on their hearts, via the holy spirit. According to Hebrews 8, they will know him (eido) intimately, and therfore will not break his Covenant with them.
So how is the new covenant laws different from the old covenant laws? Sinning, in an of itself, didn't constitute the breaking of the old covenant. The old covenant contained within it, all the provisions of procuring necessary atonement for sin. So will the new covenant! The difference between the two covenants is, the children of Israel will not fail to abide by the provisions of restitution because God's laws will be written on their hearts and not just in their minds. They will keep all the provisions of the new covenant and the land will be theirs for an everlasting possession.

Jer 30:17-22 KJV 17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. 18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof. 19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. 20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them. 21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD. 22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Jer 31:27-35 KJV 27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. 28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD. 29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. 35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
7,901
2,963
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Don't you think Israel will be gathered first BEFORE God restores all thing to them?

God in gather Israel to Himself will plant the Israelites in the soil of His servant Israel and will teach the Israelites on the religion of Israel where they are living scatted through the whole earth. For Israel to be a blessing to all of the peoples of the earth they must remain scattered throughout the whole earth and become God's priests for all of the people of the earth.

For the Israelites to be a blessing to all of the people, they must demonstrate and encourage the people of the earth to take root in God's fertile fields/soils.

If the israelites focus on God restoring all things to them, then they too will be missing the point of God's salvation plan.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,436
262
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In Ezekiel 37:15-20, God promised the reuniting of the two nations of Israel (the northern kingdom) and Judah (the southern kingdom) back into one kingdom, ruled by one king over the re-united nation.

That prophecy was fulfilled on May 14, 1948. Israel is one nation again, no longer two nations of north and south.

The parable of the fig generation began in 1967 when the Jews regained control of Jerusalem and it becoming the capital of Israel again. The fig tree represents the fig tree based on Jesus cursing a fig tree beside the way as His and the disciples entering Jerusalem, the week when he would be rejected and crucified,

1967 + 70 years = 2037 that Jesus will return by. Subtracting 7 years for the 7 years of Daniel :27 and Ezekiel 39:9, the Gog/Magog of event of Ezekiel will happen before the end of 2030.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AngelicArcher

tailgator

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2024
2,845
207
63
61
North Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Lord has not gathered his chosen people back into the land of Israel.That takes place when Christ comes and sends his angels to gather together his elect
What has been fulfilled and is being fulfilled is the beast which recieved a deadly wound has been healed and unbelieving Jews from all nations,peoples and tongues have been following the beast since 1948.
These people who have followed the beast had longed for the beast for nearly 2000 years and have had their hopes and dreams come true.The majority will worship the beast till the beast and themselves are consumed.A small remnant will come out of apostasy and be saved.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,436
262
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Lord has not gathered his chosen people back into the land of Israel.That takes place when Christ comes and sends his angels to gather together his elect
The Lord has not gathered all of his chosen people back to the land of Israel.

Which will happen in Matthew 24:31, when Jesus returns. You got that part right.

What has been fulfilled and is being fulfilled is the beast which recieved a deadly wound has been healed and unbelieving Jews from all nations,peoples and tongues have been following the beast since 1948.
Israel over there is not the beast, nor is it's leader Netanyahu.

The prince that shall come following the Gog/Magog event will become the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah - the Antichrist. Who will later become the beast (no longer the king of Israel, thought-to-be messiah - but dictator of the EU).

The deadly wound of Revelation 13 will take place sometime in the middle of the 7 years when the Antichrist person is assassinated.



Events ToD to AoD.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: AngelicArcher

tailgator

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2024
2,845
207
63
61
North Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Lord has not gathered all of his chosen people back to the land of Israel.

Which will happen in Matthew 24:31, when Jesus returns. You got that part right.


Israel over there is not the beast, nor is it's leader Netanyahu.

The prince that shall come following the Gog/Magog event will become the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah - the Antichrist. Who will later become the beast (no longer the king of Israel, thought-to-be messiah - but dictator of the EU).

The deadly wound of Revelation 13 will take place sometime in the middle of the 7 years when the Antichrist person is assassinated.



View attachment 59469
Maybe someday you might understand but I'm betting that even after most everyone in Israel has received the mark of the beast which they have followed into the promised land has received the mark of the beast,you will still deny they worship the beast.
 

Berean

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2024
505
261
63
Midwest
www.kingdomherald.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God in gather Israel to Himself will plant the Israelites in the soil of His servant Israel and will teach the Israelites on the religion of Israel where they are living scatted through the whole earth. For Israel to be a blessing to all of the peoples of the earth they must remain scattered throughout the whole earth and become God's priests for all of the people of the earth.

For the Israelites to be a blessing to all of the people, they must demonstrate and encourage the people of the earth to take root in God's fertile fields/soils.

If the israelites focus on God restoring all things to them, then they too will be missing the point of God's salvation plan.
I don't think so, the picture of Israel blessing all the families of the earth can be seen in the events of Joseph in Egypt. You recall the 7 years of plenty and famine. All the nations came to Egypt for grain. So it will be during the Kingdom. Israel will be the blesser nation, the world will see that God is with them, and for them to receive the same blessings they must recognize Israel as God's kingdom on earth. They will submit themselves and receive a blessing.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
6,958
3,801
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Whom did Jesus say was the “father” of Israel’s religious leaders in Jesus‘ day? (John 8:44)
Did something happen to Israel‘s leadership after Christ’s death that changed who they served as their god?

What did Jesus say about them…?
”You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
Their worship was “in vain” because of the “doctrines” that were ‘man made’ and did not come from their Scripture at all. Christendom has followed in exactly the same pattern….

I don’t see anywhere in the Scriptures that fleshly “Israel” has anything to do with the end time prophesies…..Jesus said that God had abandoned them to their own destructive and disobedient course. (Matt 23:37-39) Should we hold our breath after almost 2000 years of denying and rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, to wait for fleshly Israel to repent? Will God force them to? Repentance has to come from the heart, not from someone with a big stick.

God chose a new “Israel” to be his “people” back in the first century……these Paul called “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) who were made up of both Jewish and gentile disciples of Christ.

The Jews have always regarded their relationship with Abraham as some kind of good luck charm…..thinking they could disobey their God without penalty. He showed them that this was not true.
Just being “Jewish” by birth had no bearing on their salvation…..faith in their Messiah was a requirement.

John B’s words to the Pharisees confirmed it….
Matt 3:7-10..…
“When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

God could raise up children for Abraham from the stones if he needed to….Abraham did not need to have disobedient rebels to be his children….God needed those who would obey him through the teachings of his son, which Jesus said were the teachings of his Father.

John 7:14-16…
…..Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. 15 And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” 16 Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teachis not mine, but belongs to him who sent me.”

Knowing that satan would corrupt Christianity just as surely and easily as he had corrupted Judaism, God abandoned both to the blood spilling nations, where participation in their wars (even tacitly) is a direct contravention of Christ’s teachings. (Matt 5:43-44) How does one “love their enemies” with tanks, missiles and weapons of mass destruction?

We show God who we are by what we accept as truth…..ignoring the teachings of the Christ to participate in the wars of the nations, shows that we do not “know the only true God and the one he sent”. (John 17:3)
It shows that we support man’s kingdoms, not God’s. (John 18:36; John 17:3)
 

Berean

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2024
505
261
63
Midwest
www.kingdomherald.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Whom did Jesus say was the “father” of Israel’s religious leaders in Jesus‘ day? (John 8:44)
Did something happen to Israel‘s leadership after Christ’s death that changed who they served as their god?
So, you condemn a whole nation because of what their leaders do?
What did Jesus say about them…?
”You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
Their worship was “in vain” because of the “doctrines” that were ‘man made’ and did not come from their Scripture at all. Christendom has followed in exactly the same pattern….
Seems as if you just described the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, with their man-made "doctrines". Had their doctrines come from the Scriptures, they wouldn't flip flop so much under the guise of "new light."

I don’t see anywhere in the Scriptures that fleshly “Israel” has anything to do with the end time prophesies…..Jesus said that God had abandoned them to their own destructive and disobedient course. (Matt 23:37-39) Should we hold our breath after almost 2000 years of denying and rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, to wait for fleshly Israel to repent? Will God force them to? Repentance has to come from the heart, not from someone with a big stick.

God chose a new “Israel” to be his “people” back in the first century……these Paul called “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) who were made up of both Jewish and gentile disciples of Christ.

The Jews have always regarded their relationship with Abraham as some kind of good luck charm…..thinking they could disobey their God without penalty. He showed them that this was not true.
Just being “Jewish” by birth had no bearing on their salvation…..faith in their Messiah was a requirement.

John B’s words to the Pharisees confirmed it….
Matt 3:7-10..…
“When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

God could raise up children for Abraham from the stones if he needed to….Abraham did not need to have disobedient rebels to be his children….God needed those who would obey him through the teachings of his son, which Jesus said were the teachings of his Father.

John 7:14-16…
…..Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. 15 And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” 16 Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teachis not mine, but belongs to him who sent me.”

Knowing that satan would corrupt Christianity just as surely and easily as he had corrupted Judaism, God abandoned both to the blood spilling nations, where participation in their wars (even tacitly) is a direct contravention of Christ’s teachings. (Matt 5:43-44) How does one “love their enemies” with tanks, missiles and weapons of mass destruction?

We show God who we are by what we accept as truth…..ignoring the teachings of the Christ to participate in the wars of the nations, shows that we do not “know the only true God and the one he sent”. (John 17:3)
It shows that we support man’s kingdoms, not God’s. (John 18:36; John 17:3)
Like you, almost all Christian interpretations of prophecy present a very gloomy vision of Israel’s future. They claim that the blessings promised in the Hebrew Scriptures no longer belong to Israel, but have passed to the Christian Church! Why? Largely because they have adopted “replacement theology” which leaves Israel —and thus all Jews—permanently cast off from God’s favor.

True as you stated, Jesus said, “Your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23:38) But the Apostle Paul also taught that when the Church would be completed, “All Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26). Now as we near the End of the Christian Age, God is calling His ancient people home in anticipation of removing their “blindness” (Romans 11:25). Christians throughout the Age, however, have not generally understood the Apostle Paul’s words to the Church that “through your mercy, they [Israel] also may obtain mercy” (Romans 11:31).

Early in the Christian Era prominent church “fathers” began to describe the Jews in extremely negative terms. Justin Martyr (A.D. 100 – 165) presented the concept that Christians inherited the promises to Israel when the Jewish nation rejected Jesus as the Messiah. He reasoned that since the Christian faith is like the faith of Abraham, Christians will even inherit the Holy Land as Abraham’s “true children” instead of the Jews.

“Replacement theology” taught by Augustine (A.D. 354–430) also embraced the concept that the “House of Israel” was permanently cast off. As a result, this teaching became official Church doctrine. Remarkably, though, Augustine urged Christians to keep the Jews alive! Why? Their existence would validate the Christian claim to the authenticity of the whole Bible. During the same period John Chrysostom (A.D. 339 – c. 407) advocated, “Because... [the Jews]…killed Christ—there is no mercy—slay them.” Chrysostom’s vicious views led directly to violent persecution in Antioch (Syria). Another result of the “replacement theology” was the erroneous charge against the Jews by Christians falsely claiming that the Jews were responsible for gross “ritual murders.” One need not wonder—with such lies being spread—that the destruction of the Jewish people had become a part of Christian theology! (In modern times Arab Muslims have adopted these false anti-Semitic charges and have accused Jews of ritual murders of Arabs and others.

Upon such a base of false teachings, the Christian Church grew more and more intolerant of the Jews. The Apostle Paul’s teaching that Israel would not be permanently cast off was ignored by the “official” Church. Even though Paul taught, “all Israel shall be saved.” Their blindness would only continue “until the fulness of the Gentiles come in” [i.e., the full number of Gentiles come into the Church] (Romans 11:25). In other words, Israel is still God’s people! Therefore, the ominous prophecies of trouble to come upon Israel are only part of the story. God also promised that He will fight for His People and His Land as in the ancient “day of battle.” (Zechariah 14:3) And God said He will “have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name...for I have poured out, my spirit upon the house of Israel.” (Ezekiel 39:25-29) Diaspora Museum in Tel Aviv, Israel.

Actually, there are many wonderful promises yet to be fulfilled to Israel as a people. The scriptural reality is that God’s Plan for Israel’s future is beautiful and inspiring. In fact, Christians have a responsibility in the End Times to “comfort” and encourage Israel “that her iniquity is pardoned.” (Isaiah 40:1,2) In a world of escalating anti-Semitism, faithful Christians should show sincere and enthusiastic support for Jews and Israel
 
  • Like
Reactions: The PuP

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
6,958
3,801
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Let’s examine a few points here….

So, you condemn a whole nation because of what their leaders do?
It is not I who have have condemned “Israel” as a nation….it is God himself through Jesus‘ teachings.
Matt 23 is a good example of where the religious leaders led the people….with the result that they cursed themselves and their own children, in their desire to have Jesus executed as a despised blasphemer!

Matt 27:24-25…KJV..
”When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.


Who told them that Jesus was a blasphemer? Why did they believe those religious leaders? For the same reason that people today follow their religious leaders…..they believe them. God will not interfere with our free willed choices.
Believing something or in someone, doesn’t make it the truth. We have to prove things to ourselves….and we can only do that by careful study.

God will hold the Jewish people to account for their statement above. History shows that fleshly Jews have never known God’s blessing in their time since Christ’s murder and even in the intervening hundreds of years between the time of their last prophet Malachi, and the time of Jesus Christ. Why? Because as Jesus said…..

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” (Matt 23:37-39)

Are you going to hold your breath waiting for natural Israel to suddenly repent of their crimes? To repent in asking foreign nations to support their bloodshed? (Isa 1:15) They don’t want to.

Repentance has to come from the heart, and the only “natural Jews” who merit salvation are the prophesied “remnant” from that nation who came to Christ and abandoned the false religion, practiced by their corrupt leadership.(Matt 15:7-9)
Their worship, Jesus said, was invalidated by what they taught…man-made doctrines and traditions, much like Christendom, who followed in their footsteps. History repeats because people don’t learn the lessons from the past. Israel never did either.
Seems as if you just described the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, with their man-made "doctrines". Had their doctrines come from the Scriptures, they wouldn't flip flop so much under the guise of "new light."
To what “new light” has your leadership led you? As far as I can see you have not progressed in your understanding of anything since Russell’s death. If the light on the path has not “grown brighter” with the approaching “day of Jehovah”, now so near at hand, then that does not bode well for you. (Prov 4:18)
Like you, almost all Christian interpretations of prophecy present a very gloomy vision of Israel’s future. They claim that the blessings promised in the Hebrew Scriptures no longer belong to Israel, but have passed to the Christian Church! Why? Largely because they have adopted “replacement theology” which leaves Israel —and thus all Jews—permanently cast off from God’s favor.
Ah yes, “replacement theology”….did God “replace” disobedient natural “Israel” with another “Israel”?
The Scriptures tell us that he did.
Rom 2:28-29….
”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”
God chose a new nation to serve him as disciples of his son. This was spiritual “Israel” who were made up of both natural Jews and gentile believers in Jesus….Paul called them “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) ….sons by “adoption” rather than by birth. (Matt 3:7-10) God can raise up sons of Abraham from the stones if he needed to.

Rom 9:6-8…Paul wrote….
”However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

There it is…..deny it if you wish.

If you think natural Israel as they are today, have anything to do with the God of Jesus Christ, you are sadly mistaken. That fleshly (political) nation is lost, but individuals from that nation are welcomed when they accept Jesus as Messiah…let’s hope many more do.

True as you stated, Jesus said, “Your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23:38) But the Apostle Paul also taught that when the Church would be completed, “All Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26). Now as we near the End of the Christian Age, God is calling His ancient people home in anticipation of removing their “blindness” (Romans 11:25). Christians throughout the Age, however, have not generally understood the Apostle Paul’s words to the Church that “through your mercy, they [Israel] also may obtain mercy” (Romans 11:31).
Yes, all spiritual “Israel” will be saved, as they alone will rule in the Kingdom of God as “kings and priests”.(Rev 20:6) This was the original promise to fleshly Israel (Ex 19:4-6) but they disqualified themselves by their disobedience….that promise was conditional and they lost it through their own conduct.
Actually, there are many wonderful promises yet to be fulfilled to Israel as a people. The scriptural reality is that God’s Plan for Israel’s future is beautiful and inspiring. In fact, Christians have a responsibility in the End Times to “comfort” and encourage Israel “that her iniquity is pardoned.” (Isaiah 40:1,2) In a world of escalating anti-Semitism, faithful Christians should show sincere and enthusiastic support for Jews and Israel
Again, yes, support….but for spiritual “Israel”….we see from Jesus‘ judging “the sheep from the goats”, what is the criteria upon which they are judged? Read Matt 25:31-46, and see for yourself that it is the assistance given to Christ’s “brothers”, (which came to be both Jewish and gentiles Christians) who gain the “sheep” God’s favor….OTOH, the “goats” have not bothered to support any of Christ’s brothers because they do not recognize them as such.

Who then were Christ’s “brothers” back in the first century? And who are those who support them in these last days? Why would anyone support what the nation of Israel is doing right now? Bombing and killing innocent women and children without God’s sanction or support….relying on foreign nations to supply their weapons and backing. If God was backing Israel, no other power would be necessay to attain them victory.
Look back in history and see the truth of the statement…”If God be for us, who can be against us?” (Rom 8:28-31)

You are sadly mistaken….lost in old and dim light from the past, so that there is no progression into the future….I do not believe that things will turn out as you imagine. Who replaced Russell? He was the spokesman for a whole group, but he was not the leader. He was part of a body…a governing body of redeemed people at that time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheHC

KUWN

Active Member
Sep 13, 2024
617
201
43
69
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
^^^^

What prophecies regarding Israel’s regathering have already been or are being fulfilled?​


I would suggest that the gathering of Israel by God to Himself has not yet begun. Why/how can I make this claim?

  1. Firstly, the Prophecy in Exodus 20:4-6 has not yet reached its completion which is the end of the fourth age of the existence of the nation of Israel from the time of the birth of Isaac.
  2. Secondly, God has not yet dealt with the beasts of the field to give Israel peace in the various places where they are living scattered throughout the whole earth.
  3. Thirdly, in all of the prophecies concerning God's gathering of the Israelites to Himself, the prophecies speak of placing them in His fertile field/soil where they are living scattered throughout the whole earth.
  4. Fourthly, Paul wrote that when the time of the Gentiles trampling God's sanctuary and His Earthly hosts, has run with respect to the 2,300 years allotted for them to do so to the allocated time period's completion, then after that all of Israel will be saved.
I would contend that the time of the above four points concerning God's gathering of Israel to Himself has not yet begun as, from my reading of the Scriptures, the sixth age for mankind has not yet been completed. I would suggest that the six age, from the time of Adam's creation, has another twenty or so years yet to run before it reaches its conclusion before the seventh age will commence.

Shalom
I suspect the reason you didn't quote many passages in the above 1-4 points is because you are way out in left field with your spiritual theology. There are no ages during the time you are referencing. I think it would do you a load of good to get back to the obvious meaning of scripture. You appear to be trying to find some deep hidden meaning in the text, it is just not there except in your imagination. So, stop wasting your time. Just stick with the text. I have notice some of your other posts, and I see this same pattern in them.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
7,901
2,963
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I suspect the reason you didn't quote many passages in the above 1-4 points is because you are way out in left field with your spiritual theology. There are no ages during the time you are referencing. I think it would do you a load of good to get back to the obvious meaning of scripture. You appear to be trying to find some deep hidden meaning in the text, it is just not there except in your imagination. So, stop wasting your time. Just stick with the text. I have notice some of your other posts, and I see this same pattern in them.

Good for you in being able to notice that i disagree with the way the contextual accuracy is lacking in our precious translations that many rely on for their understanding.

Just because I present a very different understanding based on what I consider is the correct context of the source documents, does not mean that I am wrong at all.

Shalom
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,436
262
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Let’s examine a few points here….


It is not I who have have condemned “Israel” as a nation….it is God himself through Jesus‘ teachings.
Matt 23 is a good example of where the religious leaders led the people….with the result that they cursed themselves and their own children, in their desire to have Jesus executed as a despised blasphemer!

Matt 27:24-25…KJV..
”When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.


Who told them that Jesus was a blasphemer? Why did they believe those religious leaders? For the same reason that people today follow their religious leaders…..they believe them. God will not interfere with our free willed choices.
Believing something or in someone, doesn’t make it the truth. We have to prove things to ourselves….and we can only do that by careful study.

God will hold the Jewish people to account for their statement above. History shows that fleshly Jews have never known God’s blessing in their time since Christ’s murder and even in the intervening hundreds of years between the time of their last prophet Malachi, and the time of Jesus Christ. Why? Because as Jesus said…..

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” (Matt 23:37-39)

Are you going to hold your breath waiting for natural Israel to suddenly repent of their crimes? To repent in asking foreign nations to support their bloodshed? (Isa 1:15) They don’t want to.

Repentance has to come from the heart, and the only “natural Jews” who merit salvation are the prophesied “remnant” from that nation who came to Christ and abandoned the false religion, practiced by their corrupt leadership.(Matt 15:7-9)
Their worship, Jesus said, was invalidated by what they taught…man-made doctrines and traditions, much like Christendom, who followed in their footsteps. History repeats because people don’t learn the lessons from the past. Israel never did either.

To what “new light” has your leadership led you? As far as I can see you have not progressed in your understanding of anything since Russell’s death. If the light on the path has not “grown brighter” with the approaching “day of Jehovah”, now so near at hand, then that does not bode well for you. (Prov 4:18)

Ah yes, “replacement theology”….did God “replace” disobedient natural “Israel” with another “Israel”?
The Scriptures tell us that he did.
Rom 2:28-29….
”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”
God chose a new nation to serve him as disciples of his son. This was spiritual “Israel” who were made up of both natural Jews and gentile believers in Jesus….Paul called them “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) ….sons by “adoption” rather than by birth. (Matt 3:7-10) God can raise up sons of Abraham from the stones if he needed to.

Rom 9:6-8…Paul wrote….
”However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

There it is…..deny it if you wish.

If you think natural Israel as they are today, have anything to do with the God of Jesus Christ, you are sadly mistaken. That fleshly (political) nation is lost, but individuals from that nation are welcomed when they accept Jesus as Messiah…let’s hope many more do.


Yes, all spiritual “Israel” will be saved, as they alone will rule in the Kingdom of God as “kings and priests”.(Rev 20:6) This was the original promise to fleshly Israel (Ex 19:4-6) but they disqualified themselves by their disobedience….that promise was conditional and they lost it through their own conduct.

Again, yes, support….but for spiritual “Israel”….we see from Jesus‘ judging “the sheep from the goats”, what is the criteria upon which they are judged? Read Matt 25:31-46, and see for yourself that it is the assistance given to Christ’s “brothers”, (which came to be both Jewish and gentiles Christians) who gain the “sheep” God’s favor….OTOH, the “goats” have not bothered to support any of Christ’s brothers because they do not recognize them as such.

Who then were Christ’s “brothers” back in the first century? And who are those who support them in these last days? Why would anyone support what the nation of Israel is doing right now? Bombing and killing innocent women and children without God’s sanction or support….relying on foreign nations to supply their weapons and backing. If God was backing Israel, no other power would be necessay to attain them victory.
Look back in history and see the truth of the statement…”If God be for us, who can be against us?” (Rom 8:28-31)

You are sadly mistaken….lost in old and dim light from the past, so that there is no progression into the future….I do not believe that things will turn out as you imagine. Who replaced Russell? He was the spokesman for a whole group, but he was not the leader. He was part of a body…a governing body of redeemed people at that time.
The nation of Israel is currently in a state of unbelief that Jesus is the messiah and the gospel of salvation.

The Jews will remain in a state of unbelief until the middle of the forthcoming 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27, and Ezekiel 39:9.

For a while, when those 7 years first begin, the Jews will think the Antichrist is their messiah. But after about 3 years when he betrays them, by stopping the daily sacrifice of the two lambs, and going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:4...... the Jews will turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation in Revelation 12:10.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
 

KUWN

Active Member
Sep 13, 2024
617
201
43
69
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Just because I present a very different understanding based on what I consider is the correct context of the source documents, does not mean that I am wrong at all.
This is the danger of using a spiritual / metaphorical interpretive method, there can not be a right or wrong, or a correct vs incorrect interpretation. There is no way of confirming or denying your interpretation if we use the spiritual interpretative method. Within my interpretation method, which is primarily a literal, grammatical, historical method. we take all passages literally unless the context says otherwise.

What is dangerous about the literal interpretation method is it can be seen to be wrong or right because it can be verified by thorough examination. No scripture is of one's private interpretation; that's the spiritual / metaphorical interpretation method. Also, like you do, you can use any interpretation of a text, since spiritual method of interpretation has no way of confirming whether one's interpretation is right or wrong. So, nobody can be wrong. All can give their own interpretation without being contradicted. That is why you may have given a bizarre interpretation, but your interpretation is just as good as anyone else's within the spiritual interpretation.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
7,901
2,963
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
This is the danger of using a spiritual / metaphorical interpretive method, there can not be a right or wrong, or a correct vs incorrect interpretation. There is no way of confirming or denying your interpretation if we use the spiritual interpretative method. Within my interpretation method, which is primarily a literal, grammatical, historical method. we take all passages literally unless the context says otherwise.

What is dangerous about the literal interpretation method is it can be seen to be wrong or right because it can be verified by thorough examination. No scripture is of one's private interpretation; that's the spiritual / metaphorical interpretation method. Also, like you do, you can use any interpretation of a text, since spiritual method of interpretation has no way of confirming whether one's interpretation is right or wrong. So, nobody can be wrong. All can give their own interpretation without being contradicted. That is why you may have given a bizarre interpretation, but your interpretation is just as good as anyone else's within the spiritual interpretation.

You are welcome to hold to your POV. Whether either of our understandings are right with respect to our personal understandings will be proved in the future, possibly within the next 20 or so years.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
7,901
2,963
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Even though more Jews are getting born again now than ever before?

But the two ages of the iniquities of the fathers being visited upon their children and the Children's children has not yet reached it's completion yet.

Yes, some Jews are coming to adopt Jesus as their Lord and Saviour but for the majority of the Jews they have not repented of their continual idolatrous worship as yet. When that happens, we will see all of Israel saved.