You sound like you have lots to learn LM, and as someone that seems to pride themselves of being so sure of themself, and yet you still cannot avoid getting manure on your face once again. I've known of the JWs before you were born LM. If I were you I would stop rattling on with BS and start listening and reading these posts first, before you engage mouth/ or that deadly quick-draw typing finger....
Exploring Anti-trinitarian Logic
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Firstly, if you've known about Jehovah's Witnesses since before I was born, then you should've understood that Grailhunter wasn't name-calling by asking Pierac if what he was saying was Jehovah's Witness rhetoric.
Secondly, rather than waste your time casting baseless accusations at me, you could spend your time more wisely by responding to my latest post to you in our discussion. Here it is again:
In Gen. 1:26, the author of Genesis said the part "God (Elohim) said [...]", and they would've used it in the singular sense as they were referring to the one singular God. God is the one Who spoke in the first-person plural by saying, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness [...]". If God isn't one and trine, then what is your explanation for why the one singular God spoke in the first-person plural, rather than in first-person singular? What need was there for God to speak in the first-personal plural when speaking of making man in His image and likeness?
Additionally, I'm still awaiting your explanation for why it was necessary that the Christ (Messiah) be the Word (Jn. 1:1), sent by the Father (Jn. 3:17;34;5:30;6:38;7:28-29;8:29;11:42;12:49;17:3;20:21;1 Jn. 4:9), and be begotten by the Holy Spirit and become human (indicating that prior to becoming human the Word preexisted invisibly and incorporeally), and born of the Virgin (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35, Jn. 1:14), rather than be a naturally conceived human by two human parents?
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Man, are you on meds...your question you posed, over a 75 word or symbol nonsensical question...insane LM. Get over it I cannot answer such an awful mess
It's true that you can't answer my questions, but your reason for why is false, because you can't actually explain why my questions are nonsensical. You're blaming me to try and save face over not having answers to present at this time.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I see that you have a propensity to regurgitate your previous replies as if we didn’t hear you the first time….
People who do that are not students of God’s word, but merely echo chambers.
If “divine” means “pertaining to God”…..having “divine nature”…..does “the Word“ have divine nature? Does his divine origin make him God’s equal?
Did he issue from God?
What does “begotten” mean?
When was the son “begotten”?
Since Col 1:15 states that Jesus is the “firstborn of ALL CREATION” and is the “image of his invisible” God and Father, then the son existed before “ALL CREATION”. So his status as “only begotten” is not in relation to his human birth….he was “with God” “in the beginning”…and in Jesus’ own words, called “the beginning of God’s creation” as Rev 3:14 states.
How is Jesus “the image” of one who is “invisible”? He can only reflect his Father’s qualities and attributes, which he did so eloquently.…like the moon reflects the sun. Like an image is a reflection of reality.
No, that is not what I said…..the son was created as God’s “firstborn”…..God has many “sons” in heaven but none are like his “firstborn”…the only one created directly by his Father, who is also his God.
Even after his earthly mission and return to heaven, Jesus continued to address his Father as “my God”. (Rev 3:12) Can God have a god even in heaven? Is an “image” the same as the real thing? Is a photograph of you the same as the person?
The son can be “holy and pure and powerful”, without being a deity. The Jews knew only Yahweh as their deity…and he was “ONE”….not three. (Deut 6:4)
Jesus is also called a “holy servant” of his Father….(Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant?
And he is our High Priest….which is a position of service to God….can God be his own High Priest? (Heb 3:1)
Did you know that Jesus was also called an “apostle”?
Putting it all in simple easy to understand language….humans were persuaded to disobey their Creator, which they knew carried the death penalty. The devil wanted the worship that these lower beings would give to God, so he plotted a way to obtain it….but he had to take them away from God to accomplish it….he did so by lies and deceit.
As free willed beings all three rebels had broken God’s law. So instead of eliminating them from existence, which he had every right to do, and start afresh with some new humans, God decided to make the rebellion into an object lesson…he would allow the devil to rule the world to show him, and any who might follow his course, a first hand view of what a failure he would be….and to show the humans what the consequences of their disobedience would lead to, with the devil in control of their world. (Luke 4:5-7)
What do we see as a result? Every despicable breach of God’s commands has led to a multitude of problems which are unsolvable. Humans are now living in the “end times” where the devil knows he only has a short time left…..and he is pulling out all the stops to accomplish his final hurrah…..to take as many down with him as he can, using his old, tried and tested tricks. He has nothing new, so he has amplified his old weapons of choice…..deception, violence, immorality and demonism. His world is rife with all three.
Nothing in his world is as it appears to be. (1 John 5:19)
How did God address the situation right from the beginning of their rebellion? He prepared a sacrificial Lamb who would willingly do what He could not….no one can kill an immortal God, but at that time only God was immortal. Until he had completed his rescue mission by sending his faithful son, God alone was “King of Eternity” a position he will always hold as the only uncreated Being in existence.
The word “eternal” actually means “without beginning or end”, but the son was “begotten” of his Father, meaning that he was produced by his Father, as one who had to exist before him (as all begetters do).
“Monogenes” (only begotten) is used in the Bible to denote the firstborn and only child in a family….and even of animals…..it is not a special word that means something else with regard to Jesus, who is and always will be “the son of God”.
I have answered that question….God provided what was necessary to fulfill his own Law…..Jesus came to “redeem” mankind. So what does it mean to be a “redeemer”?
If we use a modern day application, if you owe someone a debt but you have no money to pay it, but you have some valuable possession that the Pawn Shop could turn into cash for you, you can pawn the object and redeem it later when you have enough money to repay the pawnbroker.
The price of redemption will be set at the time you pawned the object. When you have saved enough money to redeem your possession, you get it back.
Back in Bible times a debtor was pressed into service for his creditor until his debt was paid….but if he had a family to support, he could assign one of his children to service the debt for him. Or if he had a wealthy friend or family member, they could pay the debt and free the debtor from his forced labor.
So how does redemption work with Jesus? The human race was plunged into debt by their forefather Adam.
But the debt was so enormous that not a soul on earth could pay it. It required the fulfillment of God’s Law…”an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life”….only a set equivalent could cancel the debt.
Since only a sinless life could pay for the life Adam lost for all his offspring, even though God was the Creditor, He sent his son to become a sinless human on earth to pay that debt. It required his death to cancel what Adam had done, and thus defeat the devil, who underestimated how God would solve the dilemma. The Creditor would furnish the payment, even at great cost to himself…such was his love for mankind. (John 3:16)
As a reward for his faithful course under such awful circumstances, God gave his precious son the power of an indestructible life (immortality) upon his return to heaven. (John 5:26-30) He will also raise his elect to immortal life in heaven (Rev 20:6) as opposed to those whom Christ will restore to life in the general resurrection which takes place on earth. (John 5:28-29)
I was asking about the title “ho logos” (The Word)….why is Jesus the bearer of that title? It is one of many titles he has been given in his service to God.
It was not “ho theos” who “became flesh”…..it was “theos“…the divine son of God who became Jesus the Christ.
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Well, days passed without replying to my last post to you, but you replied to something I said to someone else since then, so I thought maybe you missed my post to you, which is why I re-posted it. I don't know how that makes me not a student of God's word and an echo chamber....
I'm aware of that definition of the Koine Greek word "theios" (divine), because I presented that word and its definitions to you in a previous post. Here are its definitions again:
"Forms of the word
Dictionary: θεῖος, α, ον
Greek transliteration: theios
Simplified transliteration: theios
Numbers
Strong's number: 2304
GK Number: 2521
Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 3
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: a-1a(1)
Gloss: divine
Definition: divine, pertaining to God, 2 Pet. 1:3, 4; τὸ θειον, the divine nature, divinity, Acts 17:29*"
You say that Jesus is divine and not God, but the word "theios" (divine) is used only three times in the New Testament (Act. 17:29, 2 Pet. 1:3, 2 Pet. 1:4), and in each of those times it's used to refer to God. So, how can you say that Jesus is divine but not because He's God?
You said you believe that Jesus was created to die for mankind, is divine, sinless, and in-equal to God. By saying that, you are saying that God had to create a lesser divine and sinless being than Himself to die for mankind. Therefore, why do you believe that God, the most Divine, Holy, Pure, and Powerful Uncreated Being, couldn't become human to redeem mankind Himself instead?
The Word became human and was named "Jesus", for John said that the Word "became flesh and lived among us" (Jn. 1:14), and was "testified about" by John the Baptist. (Jn. 1:15)
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@Aunty Jane answered this….
God is immortal; He can’t die.
It’s really a moot question, asking “why….couldn’t” He.
The Fact is, as John (1:18) emphatically states, “No one has ever seen God.”
And 1 John 4:12…”At no time has anyone beheld God.”
Are you trying to somehow wiggle out of those clear statements?
Did you deliberately change my question, because I didn't ask why God couldn't die, but rather why she believes God couldn't have become human and died.
Actually, both Jn. 1:18 and 1 Jn. 4:12 say "No one has seen God at any time", and if you considered the surrounding words and verses of each for context, you'd know what's being said is that no one has seen God until Jesus.
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@Aunty Jane, you believe that Jesus was created to die for mankind, is divine, sinless, and in-equal to God. By saying that, you are saying that God had to create a lesser divine and sinless being than Himself to die for mankind. Therefore, that means you believe that God, the most Divine, Holy, Pure, and Powerful Uncreated Being, was incapable of becoming human to die for mankind, yes?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Actually what I believe is that Jesus pre-existed as God’s created “firstborn” long before any other creation existed. John 1:1-3 tells us that he was “with God”…”in the beginning”.…and Paul tells us that Jesus was “firstborn of ALL creation”….so that is good enough for me to dismiss the trinity as lie. Jesus is not Yahweh and never is he addressed in the Bible as such.
In the Greek Scriptures, only God Almighty is addressed as “ho theos” whereas Jesus is always referred to as just “theos”, which in Strongs Concordance, means any god or goddess or divine personage. Jesus was divine, but he was not deity. So he never was equal to his God and Father. No one could be.
When humans sinned and brought condemnation of death upon the human race, the son of God was in a position to rescue them….he was not created for that purpose because he existed long before there was a need for a savior.
He was “sinless” because the redemption price for the human race was set when Adam lost sinless life for all his children, resulting in death. Only a sinless life could redeem them as I have already explained in detail.
Jesus came to buy back what Adam lost…..it’s quite a simple exchange actually, but the church made a mess of the whole story by making Jesus into God and complicated the whole thing.
Nope, you have it all wrong again….God created his son as “the beginning“ of his creation. This was long before he was needed to act as redeemer. (Rev 3:14)
The fact that he could be used to rescue Adam’s children was not in the equation until Adam sinned and brought condemnation upon the human race. Then he willingly stepped in as it was demonstrated when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son at God’s command. Both parties consented to an unthinkable act of faith.
Yes. As an immortal Yahweh cannot die….it’s really that simple. Mere mortals cannot kill an immortal God, so Jesus wasn’t God, but he was a divinely produced, a 100% human being in order to pay the price set by God to redeem the human race.
It’s only that you cannot let go of your indoctrination that you cannot wrap your head around the simplicity of the exchange…..why did the sacrifices that were prescribed in God’s law involve blood….what is there about blood that makes that sacrifice, legal to God? Do you know?
As I said, you believe that Jesus was created, is divine, sinless, and in-equal to God. So, I don't know why you said "Actually what I believe is..." to just repeat what I said that you said.
If that were true, God is omniscient, and thus He would've known that He needed Jesus to die for mankind before He even created Him, and thus I wasn't wrong to say that God created Jesus as a lesser divine and sinless being than Himself to die for mankind.
I didn't ask if you believe that God is incapable of dying as an immortal Spirit, but rather I asked if you believe that God, the most Divine, Holy, Pure, and Powerful Uncreated Being, was incapable of becoming human and dying as a human for mankind? Yes or no?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What you said was….”you believe that Jesus was created to die for mankind, is divine, sinless, and in-equal to God.”
He wasn’t “created to die for mankind”, but yes, he is sinless, divinely produced, and unequal to his God and Father….as he himself said…”the Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) and Paul also showed us the headship arrangement….
1 Cor 11:3…
”But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.”
Jesus was therefore not equal to God, but a lesser being and subordinate to him. How else could he be “God’s holy servant”? (Acts 4:27)
God’s Omniscience means that he can know all things, but sometimes he simply has a range of responses at the ready to accommodate the free will of his children. If they had no choices, then what was the point of the TKGE in Eden? There were several scenarios that could have taken place if the humans had made different choices…..he allowed them to make their choices without his interference….and responded after the fact. All God’s children in heaven and on earth, have free will.
e.g….what would have happened if the devil had second thoughts and decided not to rebel against his God?
What if Eve had denied the serpent’s lies about the death penalty not applying?
What would have happened if Adam has declined his wife’s offer of the fruit?
What would have happened? The choices were all theirs.
If an immortal cannot die, no matter what form they are in, the answer is a no brainer…..an immortal cannot die, therefore Jesus cannot be God…..he can be God-like in his character, but unless he was created as the exact equivalent of Adam, the redemption price was not paid…..and we are still condemned.
I have explained redemption as much as I am going to…..you are now speaking in riddles and rehashing, which is a complete waste of time……so unless you have something new to add or can answer any of the questions I have put to you, (which at this point is about zero) I will leave you to your own musings….
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You just said that Jesus needed to die for mankind, and God Who's omniscient would've foreseen the need for Jesus to die for mankind before He even created Him and humans, and thus at the moment He created Jesus He would've done so knowing that He's doing it so that He can accomplish dying for mankind as needed when the time comes.
So, do you believe that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven as a spirit before becoming human?
A spirit is immortal because it's incorporeal, meaning that it's not made of physical matter, and thus cannot die, decay or decompose like a physical body. If God, Who is Spirit (incorporeal, immortal), becomes human then that means He would have a corporeal (mortal) body which can die. So, either you believe God is capable of becoming human or you don't. Which is it? Please answer with either of those statements, so that I can progress that part of our discussion further, and answer other points made and questions asked by you. Or, if you don't want to answer it, explain why. Thank you.
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Your conclusions are based on too many suppositions, too many preconceptions.
Any angel’s perfect life force could’ve been transferred to Mary! And it would’ve ideally matched Adam’s perfect life!
But Jesus chose to take on that responsibility, himself. His love for humans mirrored that of his Father’s.
And regarding omniscience, that is an ability God can choose to use or not! In the case of His Free-willed intelligent creation as individuals, human and spirit, He doesn’t
In Genesis 4, we see Jehovah God trying to reason with Cain, to get him to change. Why would God even try, if He knew that Cain’s murder of Abel was a forgone conclusion?
Same with Abraham offering up Isaac… After Abraham was restrained at the last second, Jehovah God told him, “Now I do know that you are God-fearing….” —Genesis 22:12
Yes, Jehovah can read our heart and minds, and how we’re inclined, but when it comes down to choices (as the Bible reveals with the accounts I posted), we can surprise Him, making Him happy or sad. -Proverbs 27:11; Psalm 78:41
Have a good evening, my cousin.
We read that the Word preexisted in Heaven and became man by being begotten by the Holy Spirit, forming in and being born from Mary's womb, was named "Jesus", ate, slept, was tempted, tortured, bled, died, and Resurrected, etc. So, where are you reading "angel", "life force" and "transferred to Mary"?
God tried to reason with and change Cain for the same reason He tried with Judas Iscariot: love. Regarding Abraham, God knew in advance what Abraham would do, but Abraham didn't, and neither did anyone else. Abraham's choice to obey God had an impact on himself and others ever since.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I think you miss the point of God wanting to become a Father…..is it to create his children with some ulterior future motive? Or was it “love” that motivated God to create free willed beings like himself? His “firstborn“ was unique, and he was used as the agent of creation….the one “through whom” all creation came. (Col 1:15-17)
Those who were brought into existence by the son, would see God as a Father figure. It is he who described their relationship as “father and sons”, but humans came to understand it a little differently, since God is not the Creator of individual humans. He gave us the ability to procreate….but angels were created individually…..our parents created us. We do not possess the power that angels have.
The one thing that God cannot give himself is love and loyalty…that has to come from outside of himself even though he is fully self-contained, needing no one….love is his cardinal quality, which is stunted if not shared. We are all designed with a need for love….and companionship. It was these things that Adam became aware of that were missing before God gave him a mate.
Yes, as a completely separate individual….a son made in his own image….”the beginning of God’s creation” (Rev 3:14)
No sorry, spirits are not immortal or even God could not destroy them. Immortality isn’t just living forever….it means “the power of an indestructible life”…..just because they have no natural cause of death, doesn’t mean that they cannot die. Destruction awaits the devil and his demons…and they know it.
Go back to Eden and see that there was no natural cause of death for humans either….despite the fact that they were material beings who needed external means to keep living….oxygen, water and food….which were all abundantly supplied, perpetually. Those things would never run out or be unavailable to humankind. So the only cause of death at “the beginning” of man’s creation, was disobedience. If they had never sinned, they would have “lived forever”. (Gen 3:22-24)
“God is a spirit” because the Bible says so, but it also says he is immortal….no matter what kind of body he made for himself (as if he ever needed to become a human in the first place) he would still be immortal and couldn’t die.
This body is not a suit for the soul to inhabit….the body God gave us is designed to live forever, which is why humans find death so distressing. We have no ‘program’ for death….we fight it because the Bible says it is an “enemy”. If we go to a better place at death, then why aren’t we rejoicing when a loved one dies?
Death is a penalty…it was never supposed to happen. When this organism stops breathing, the soul dies. (Ezek 18:4) Sin is what produced death.
You can believe that if you like….but there is no statement in the Bible to corroborate it. “Would‘ve?….could’ve?….this is reading way more into Scripture than it ever says….or even suggests.
Jesus said he was a glorious spirit son of God before becoming a human being on earth. He looked forward to returning to his Father to take up “the glory he had alongside his Father before the world was”. (John 17:5)
It’s got nothing to do with his capability……the fact remains that He never needed to become a human in the first place……God is the Creator of all his intelligent creatures, but he is vastly superior to all of them, and as the Supreme Being, he has his spirit sons to do his bidding. Angels are messengers who took on human form to convey messages and instructions to God’s earthly servants. When God provided visions to his prophets of old such as Ezekiel, he did so because coming into the physical presence of God in a mortal body would incur death. (As God told Moses….”no man may see me and yet live”)
In Ezekiel’s visions, he saw God enthroned in some kind of celestial chariot and he was attended to by seraphs, who are high ranking angels. This is not a picture of a mighty Creator who in order to save grasshoppers, had to become a grasshopper himself…..by comparison to God that is basically what we are….we are like insects compared to our Mighty Creator. (Isa 40:22) It is demeaning to him that it would even be assumed that the Almighty would need to become like one of us….
Yahweh “sent“ his son to accomplish the role of redeemer. He did not “send” himself….nor does the Bible even suggest such a thing.
You contradicted yourself by saying spirits are both immortal (not subject to physical death/decay), and not immortal, which is another way of saying mortal (subject to physical death/decay). It's one or the other. So, are spirits immortal or mortal?
You can think that and still answer the question. So, do you believe that God is capable of becoming a human? Please answer, so that I can progress that part of our discussion further, and answer your questions. Or, if you don't want to answer it, explain why. Thank you.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You really need to educate yourself on the meaning of words used in the Bible. There is no contradiction.
“Immortal” means an “indestructible life”….you cannot die from any cause because “indestructible“ means indestructible.….amazing, isn’t it?
“Immortality”, which God alone originally possessed, (until the mission he “sent” his son to fulfill) meant that God alone could give his intelligent creation this power if they had proven faithful to death and obeyed the teachings of their Messiah. Angels are not immortal because God can destroy them. And since there are no immortal souls, no humans went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13) He promised his “chosen ones” that they would receive a place in his Father’s house, but according to Paul, that promise was to be fulfilled at his return and not before.
1 Thess 4:13-17….
“Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. . . . For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.”
This is Paul teaching about what to expect when Christ returns….those “saints” who died in centuries past are still “sleeping” in their graves when Jesus arrives and calls them to heaven. Those of the ‘elect’ still alive on earth when he arrives, were not to be resurrected before the ‘saints’ who are still “sleeping”.
Jesus was to arrive with “a commanding call“ and with an “archangel‘s voice” and those of his chosen ones would “rise first”. (Rev 20:6) Then those still living will be instantly transformed and taken to their heavenly assignment. Why would Jesus have an “archangel‘s voice”, if he were not the archangel?
This all takes place unseen to human eyes. Christ’s return was to be in two stages….his arrival is called his “parousia” which translates to “presence” not “coming”…..so giving his disciples a “sign of his presence” means that the world at large would be unaware of it, but his true disciples would be expecting it.
What would be the point of a “sign of his presence” if it were a visual event? (Matt 24:3-14) And his arrival, heralded by these events, was to signal that “the last days” (or “the time of the end“ about which Daniel wrote) had begun, and that satan would also be in his last days. (Rev 12:7-12)
This explains the escalation in wickedness in the last century, and now when the end is immanent, satan is pulling out all the stops and showing the world how truly wicked he really is. Jehovah said he would expose it all and people are shocked at what is coming out…..trusted institutions are exposed as completely corrupt and have been fooling people into supporting them, all along….milking them of their hard earned money. It is a ‘slave and master’ system, but the slaves don’t know that they are.
This is the story that the Bible tells, but it is a far cry from the scrambled story told in Christendom.
Paul speaks about the “mortal putting on immortality”, (1 Cor 15:53-54) which only occurs with their resurrection. Those who are granted this immortal spirit life, have earned it, dying faithful…..and God has chosen them to rule with his appointed King in heaven so that the human race can return to his original purpose for them. (Isa 55:11) God did not create this beautiful and carefully prepared planet to train humans for life in heaven….the Earth was created to be our permanent home…and it will yet be. (Rev 21:2-4)
Being a spirit does not make you “immortal”…..”everlasting life” is not “immortality”. There is no natural cause of death, but God can take your life, whether a spirit son or an earthly one, if you disobey him. This has apparently never been brought to your attention.
Your mindset is not allowing you to see what the Bible says about the Creator. If you can imagine for one moment the magnitude of a Being who can create a Universe that stretches beyond our limited ability to comprehend its size and scope, not to mention the laws that operate out there…..and which God and his son participated in its creation for their own pleasure as a project they shared together, whilst all the other spirit sons looked on with great interest.
Job 38:4-7…God asked Job….
“Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?”
The angels were delighted spectators of this project. Think outside the box that has been presented to you and a very different picture emerges. God has two separate families, one in heaven and one on earth, totally different in form, but very similar in their reflection of God’s attributes. Both were to serve his interests.
At Rev 22:16 we see that Jesus commands the angels, so he is not just an angel, but the son of God in a very special sense. Only two persons are named in Scripture who command the angels….Michael and Jesus.
Since Michael is “the Archangel” (the Chief Angel) he is superior to them, and he fits the description of God’s only begotten son before his earthly mission……but he is not equal with his God and Father….never has been and never will be.
The son worships the Father, but the Father does not worship the son. The son prayed to his Father, but nowhere does the Father pray to anyone. And most verses where the Father and son are spoken about together are missing the third, and supposedly equal part of the trinity….John 17:3 tells us that we need to “know” the one Jesus called “the only true God AND the one he sent“….why do we not need to “know“ the equal third party?
Even the favorite reference in Matt 28:18-20, does not state that ‘Father son and holy spirit’ are all equally “God”. Being baptized “in the name of” those mentioned, is to do so under their authority, which Jesus says is “given“ to him by his Father. Does God need to give himself any authority at all???
So Jesus cannot be God. The trinity is shot down yet again.
Who in Christendom really “knows” Jehovah and his son, as the Bible teaches them, and not as the RCC originally misrepresented them, centuries ago? The devil has the majority who identify as “Christians” hoodwinked into serving a god who does not exist…a god whom the Catholic church made up as part of the foretold apostasy, which the church pretends never happened. (Matt 13:24-30; 36-43; 2 Thess 2:1-3; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Tim 4:1-3; Heb 6:4-6)
‘Let the one who has ears listen’….isn’t this what Jesus said? Who is listening?
Nothing presented by the corrupted church system has any truth to impart to anyone. Jesus told us that the majority are on the wrong road, (Matt 7:13-14) and so when he takes up his position as judge in the final part of these days, their fate is sealed if they stay on that path to “destruction”. (Matt 7:21-23) The “sheep” will be separated from the “goats” and that will be the end of life for those who did not love the uncomfortable truth, but preferred the comfortable lies.
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Yes, that was my point. Thank you.
Cain’s actions weren’t ‘written in stone’….they were not a forgone conclusion.
:facepalm:
What kind of cognitive dissonance is this?
Read it again, please.
After Abraham was stopped from sacrificing Isaac, Jehovah God said “Now I do know that you are God-fearing…”; God did not say, “Abraham, now you do know that you are God-fearing…”.
@Aunty Jane , what’s your take on this dialogue? I’m at a loss….
No, it's not your point, because my point was that despite God being omniscient—meaning that He knows in advance what each person will do at any given moment, not that He predetermines a person's choices for them—He still tried to reason with and change Cain for the same reason He tried with Judas Iscariot: out of love.
I didn't say that God said, “Abraham, now you do know that you are God-fearing…”, but rather stated a fact that Abraham didn't know in advance about the test, nor if he would pass or fail it, prior to being given the test. God is omniscient, and thus His saying "Lay not your hand upon your son, neither do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing that you have not withheld your son, your only son from me" was a public announcement/verdict that Abraham’s inward faith was now being exhibited with this incredible act of obedience (cf. Jas 2:21-23). You could say – God announced in time what He knew from all of eternity when He saw Abraham demonstrate the depths of his faith outwardly.
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