Put Christ where he belongs

[KUWN]

Deity of Christ, Part 1 (The Cumulative Argument)

I am going to present 5 reasons for the deity of Christ in this and the next several posts. I will try to keep them short since mm in this forum don’t want to read more than a page or two. The first topic we will look at is the HONOR Jesus is given, and to show that it is equal to that of God the Father. I.e., God the Father and God the Son both share the same degree of Honor.

…that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5

"Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him" (John 5:23).

Hebrews 3:3 uses another term that expresses a concept closely related to that of honor: "glory." The word glory in the Bible (Hebrew, k-bod; Greek, doxa) has two related meanings. As an attribute of God, glory refers to God's beautiful, brilliant nature - the bright, overpowering splendor in which God appears when he manifests his presence to human beings

... so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (1 Peter 4:11).

... according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Gal. 1:4,5)

These doxologies clearly are not ascribing glory to Jesus Christ instead of to God. First Peter 4:11 explicitly states that God is to be glorified through Jesus Christ, so that glorifying Christ is done in a way that glorifies God (see also Rom. 16:27; Jude 25). Nevertheless, both of these passages ascribe glory forever to Jesus Christ in language identical to other biblical doxologies assigning eternal glory to God.

Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they exist, and were created. (Rev. 4:11)

I will give another post on Christ sharing the same Attributes as the Father. The cumulation of the 5 points will demonstrate why the early church considered Christ divine.

 

[ElieG12]

The Christian congregation, as well as the Apostolic Fathers of the late first and early second centuries, were subordinationists.

Do you know what subordinationism is?

 

[KUWN]

subordinationism

This is a heretical teaching and is in contradiction to the doctrine of the Trinity. It states that God the Son is subordinate to the Father. Some added the subordination includes the Holy Spirit below the Son. Subordinationism was officially condemned as heresy at the Second Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D.

 

[ElieG12]

This is a heretical teaching and is in contradiction to the doctrine of the Trinity. It states that God the Son is subordinate to the Father. Some added the subordination includes the Holy Spirit below the Son. Subordinationism was officially condemned as heresy at the Second Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D.

Are you truly familiar with the concept of SUBORDINATIONISM and the reasons we believe it is supported by the NT? Did you realize that both the New Testament and the Apostolic Fathers endorse subordinationism?

It's important to note that the views of the Catholic Church in the 4th century are their own issue, rather than that of the Christians who adhere to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles.

 

[KUWN]

Are you truly familiar with the concept of SUBORDINATIONISM and the reasons we believe it is supported by the NT? Did you realize that both the New Testament and the Apostolic Fathers endorse subordinationism?

It's important to note that the views of the Catholic Church in the 4th century are their own issue, rather than that of the Christians who adhere to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles.

Subordinationism is a heresy today as it was back in early Church. It makes a travesty out of the fundamental clarity of Scripture.

 

[ElieG12]

The book "The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God" by R. P. C. Hanson (1988) says that "Almost all the Eastern theologians believed that the Son was in some sense subordinated to the Father before the Incarnation".

I have explored several writings of the Apostolic Fathers, who lived in the late first and early second centuries and are thought to be direct disciples of an apostle or a close associate. My findings indicate that they all held subordinationist views.

When I have more time, I will share some of the remarks made by those Christians, who outlived the apostle John. Unfortunately, I cannot post more at this moment.

Thank you for your interest.

 

[Traveler]

No body says that Christ does not have his own divinity but even by your quotes it becomes obvious that the Father and the Son are two separate persons.

 

[KUWN]

No body says that Christ does not have his own divinity but even by your quotes it becomes obvious that the Father and the Son are two separate persons.

Yes, the Godhead is composed of 3 Persons. The reason this is not polytheism (to anticipate babes in Christ) is because Members of the Godhead have identical natures. For example, The Father possesses a perfect, infinite degree of love. Likewise, the Son has love to an infinite degree. In this sense, both the Father and the Son have the same love. Notice this is true of every attribute each Member possesses.

The Olympian gods all have different degrees of attributes. That is why they are called polytheism. Remember that "God" is not a person but a title. Much like President Trump and President Biden.

3 Members/Persons, one Godhead. 3 with the title God, yet distinct in Person.

 

[FredVB]

Person being applied to each who is God is our word for this. The Father, the Word who came incarnate as the human Son of God, and the Spirit of God speak to each other, always in communication, there is the agreement in all things being together the one being which God is. None of them are not God, while we or anyone else are never God. There is absolute distinction between God and all others.

In the incarnation here in this world as a man Jesus came voluntarily limited, and subordinate to what the heavenly Father would say to him. Never was there eternal subordination, where it would be within the same being God. Within the one being who is God there is agreement in all things.

 

[KUWN]

Some Attributes of God

We have seen already that the Bible teaches us to respond to Jesus Christ as we would to God the Father, by giving him the honors that are due God. We are to honor, glorify, worship, pray to, sing to and about, believe in, fear or reverence, religiously serve, love, and obey Jesus as we would God

Honoring Jesus in these ways would be odd -- and blasphemous -- if he were merely a man. No matter how great a human being he might have been, no matter how wise or kind or influential we consider him to have been, it would be wrong to honor Jesus as God if he were fundamentally and in essence no more than a man.

It staggers the imagination and stretches the mind, but somehow Jesus has characteristics and abilities properly associated with God. In his essence and nature, Jesus is exactly like God. He possesses what theologians call the attributes of God.

When theologians discuss the attributes of God, they frequently distinguish between the communicable and incommunicable attributes of God. Communicable attributes are those attributes that God shares in some way with creatures (particularly human beings), such as love, holiness, and faithfulness. Incommunicable attributes are those attributes that God does not and cannot share with creatures, such as being all-knowing, all-powerful, and eternal. To say that Jesus is exactly, perfectly like God is to say that he possesses both the communicable and the incommunicable attributes of God.

The point is important because if we are to establish that Jesus has God's attributes, we must show that certain descriptions of God are not only also applied to Jesus but that they are applied to him with the same meaning. It will be shown that Jesus possesses the attributes of God and possesses them in the same sense and to the same extent that God possesses them. The point we are making may be stated as a paradox: No one is exactly like God; yet Jesus is exactly like God.

That no one is like God is a major theme of the Old Testament (Exod. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Kings 8:23; 1 Chron. 17:20; Ps. 86:8; Isa. 40:18, 25; 44:7; 46:5, 9; Jer. 10:6-7; Mic. 7:18). Most of these passages in context are arguing that there are no gods like the Lord God. (That no human beings are like God is occasionally mentioned as well, but it is always assumed.) They point out that no other gods have the capabilities that God has. None of them can do the kinds of miracles that God does; none can demonstrate mastery over the forces of nature or predict and control the flow of history. There is no one as great and awesome as God, and nothing in creation looks like God or is his equal. No one can even come close to rivaling God's faithfulness, mercy, and forgiveness. And yet the New Testament confidently affirms that in all these ways Jesus Christ is exactly like God!

Some argue that Col. 2:10 ("and you have come to fullness in him") shows that the "fullness" of verse 9 does not mean that Jesus has God's very nature.

Although the title Son as applied to Jesus has more than one connotation in Scripture, here we want to focus attention on the New Testament teaching that Jesus, the Son of God, had the very nature of God.

Notice this exchange between Philip and Jesus. "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us. "Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?" (John 14:7-10)

Jesus claims to be such a perfect revelation of the Father that anyone who has seen him has seen the Father.

 

[TheHC]

I’m sorry but you just defeated your argument….

The first topic we will look at is the HONOR Jesus is given.

You’re right, He was given the honor.

Who gave it to him?

If Jesus was God, he would have had it already.

Why does this seem so hard to understand?

 

[KUWN]

I’m sorry but you just defeated your argument….

I will wait to comment once you provide evidence for your statement.

You’re right, He was given the honor.

Who gave it to him?

Christians

If Jesus was God, he would have had it already.

And he did.

Why does this seem so hard to understand?

Again I will await some clarification as to this obtuse statement. I will likely ignore you if you keep this childish game going. We all have the right to be taken seriously out here.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Subordinationism is a heresy today as it was back in early Church. It makes a travesty out of the fundamental clarity of Scripture.

Subordination to authority is all over the Bible….delegated authority is needed when one is to represent God to his people. Those who denied Moses authority, which came from God were dealt with promptly.
So, who has the ultimate authority and who is subordinate to no one else? Only Yahweh.

Is subordination a new thing and is it always the wrong thing? Subordination is about rank.

Can we reason on the scriptures for a moment…?
1 Cor 11:3….
”But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.”

Christ has a “head” over him….which makes his Father superior because the Father is also his God.
This makes the son subordinate.

The Father is not just the God of Jesus on earth…..he is the God of Jesus also in heaven where he said in Rev 3:12….
”The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

Four times in that one verse Jesus acknowledges that his Father is also his God….this makes the trinity an unexplainable nonsense! Jesus subjects himself to God even in heaven. (John 20:17)

As his last instructions to his apostles before he departed for heaven….”Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.”

How can the Christ be “given all authority in heaven and on earth”…if he is God? He already has such authority. No one needs to give him what he already rightfully has.

On the night of his arrest when he was in agony over the accusation of blasphemy with which he was charged, Jesus humbly requested this….
”…he bent his knees and began to pray, 42 saying: “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”

What was the cup that he wanted to pass from him? It wasn’t his sacrificial death because that was always in the forefront of his mission, so it must have been the charge of blasphemy that was too much for him to endure….for the son of God to be accused and convicted of such a thing was unthinkable!

And whose will was to be done if they are one and the same “God”? This is again subordination…recognizing that the Father is greater than the son. (John 14:28)

And what about the service positions that Jesus holds….he is our “High Priest” so since the High Priest is service position to God, is God his own servant?

Acts 4:27, 30….
“For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. . . while you stretch out your hand for healing and while signs and wonders occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

Jesus is God’s “holy servant”…..So there is just a small sample of why I cannot believe in the trinity…..
Scripturally it doesn’t hold water….

 

[Keiw]

Some Attributes of God

We have seen already that the Bible teaches us to respond to Jesus Christ as we would to God the Father, by giving him the honors that are due God. We are to honor, glorify, worship, pray to, sing to and about, believe in, fear or reverence, religiously serve, love, and obey Jesus as we would God

Honoring Jesus in these ways would be odd -- and blasphemous -- if he were merely a man. No matter how great a human being he might have been, no matter how wise or kind or influential we consider him to have been, it would be wrong to honor Jesus as God if he were fundamentally and in essence no more than a man.

It staggers the imagination and stretches the mind, but somehow Jesus has characteristics and abilities properly associated with God. In his essence and nature, Jesus is exactly like God. He possesses what theologians call the attributes of God.

When theologians discuss the attributes of God, they frequently distinguish between the communicable and incommunicable attributes of God. Communicable attributes are those attributes that God shares in some way with creatures (particularly human beings), such as love, holiness, and faithfulness. Incommunicable attributes are those attributes that God does not and cannot share with creatures, such as being all-knowing, all-powerful, and eternal. To say that Jesus is exactly, perfectly like God is to say that he possesses both the communicable and the incommunicable attributes of God.

The point is important because if we are to establish that Jesus has God's attributes, we must show that certain descriptions of God are not only also applied to Jesus but that they are applied to him with the same meaning. It will be shown that Jesus possesses the attributes of God and possesses them in the same sense and to the same extent that God possesses them. The point we are making may be stated as a paradox: No one is exactly like God; yet Jesus is exactly like God.

That no one is like God is a major theme of the Old Testament (Exod. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Kings 8:23; 1 Chron. 17:20; Ps. 86:8; Isa. 40:18, 25; 44:7; 46:5, 9; Jer. 10:6-7; Mic. 7:18). Most of these passages in context are arguing that there are no gods like the Lord God. (That no human beings are like God is occasionally mentioned as well, but it is always assumed.) They point out that no other gods have the capabilities that God has. None of them can do the kinds of miracles that God does; none can demonstrate mastery over the forces of nature or predict and control the flow of history. There is no one as great and awesome as God, and nothing in creation looks like God or is his equal. No one can even come close to rivaling God's faithfulness, mercy, and forgiveness. And yet the New Testament confidently affirms that in all these ways Jesus Christ is exactly like God!

Some argue that Col. 2:10 ("and you have come to fullness in him") shows that the "fullness" of verse 9 does not mean that Jesus has God's very nature.

Although the title Son as applied to Jesus has more than one connotation in Scripture, here we want to focus attention on the New Testament teaching that Jesus, the Son of God, had the very nature of God.

Notice this exchange between Philip and Jesus. "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us. "Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?" (John 14:7-10)

Jesus claims to be such a perfect revelation of the Father that anyone who has seen him has seen the Father.

You are making a serious error. Catholicism mistranslated the Greek word proskeneau for Jesus, It carries 5 different meanings from Greek to English-1) worship to God-2) obeisance to a king-3) honor to a judge and 2 others. All know 100% that if one has a God like Jesus does( Psalm 45:7, John 20:17, Rev 3:12) no worship to one who has a God. Obeisance to a king is what Jesus gets bowed to.
The other fact that backs this truth= Jehovah was already( 1Chron 16:31) king, Jesus had to be appointed( Daniel 7:13-15) as a king by his God and Father( ancient of days)-but he as well must hand the kingdom back and subject himself( 1Cor 15:24-28)--God is in subjection to no one. God has all authority forever, Jesus had to be given authority.
Catholicism( 2Thess 2:3) screwed up translating, removed Gods name from Gods real bible where God willed it-all by satans will to mislead and it does that.
God fixed his bible=The New world translation.

 

[APAK]

Deity of Christ, Part 1 (The Cumulative Argument)

I am going to present 5 reasons for the deity of Christ in this and the next several posts. I will try to keep them short since mm in this forum don’t want to read more than a page or two. The first topic we will look at is the HONOR Jesus is given, and to show that it is equal to that of God the Father. I.e., God the Father and God the Son both share the same degree of Honor.

…that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5

"Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him" (John 5:23).

Hebrews 3:3 uses another term that expresses a concept closely related to that of honor: "glory." The word glory in the Bible (Hebrew, k-bod; Greek, doxa) has two related meanings. As an attribute of God, glory refers to God's beautiful, brilliant nature - the bright, overpowering splendor in which God appears when he manifests his presence to human beings

... so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (1 Peter 4:11).

... according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Gal. 1:4,5)

These doxologies clearly are not ascribing glory to Jesus Christ instead of to God. First Peter 4:11 explicitly states that God is to be glorified through Jesus Christ, so that glorifying Christ is done in a way that glorifies God (see also Rom. 16:27; Jude 25). Nevertheless, both of these passages ascribe glory forever to Jesus Christ in language identical to other biblical doxologies assigning eternal glory to God.

Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they exist, and were created. (Rev. 4:11)

I will give another post on Christ sharing the same Attributes as the Father. The cumulation of the 5 points will demonstrate why the early church considered Christ divine.

Nothing about divinity or deity of the man named Jesus so far. Have you any more 'good ones' or support?

 

[KUWN]

Subordination to authority is all over the Bible….delegated authority is needed when one is to represent God to his people. Those who denied Moses authority, which came from God were dealt with promptly. So, who has the ultimate authority and who is subordinate to no one else? Only Yahweh.

Aunty Jane,

Yahweh is also Jesus, and can apply to any Member of the Godhead.

 

[KUWN]

God fixed his bible=The New world translation.

To my surprise God has yet another Bible that supersedes the NWT. God is in the process of making his new and only religion known to mankind through a Prophet named Stephen. He will be giving the new Bible and the new ways God is changing everything to the publisher. Be on the lookout for it. Should be around July 25.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane,

Yahweh is also Jesus, and can apply to any Member of the Godhead.

Can you furnish a single scripture where either God or his son admit that both are named Yahweh? And where will I find that the holy spirit has a name at all?

According to Psalm 83:18 (KJV)…..
”That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.”

This was written at a time when God’s name was used freely by his worshippers. For his chosen nation, Jehovah (Yahweh) was ”alone”….their only God. Where did Jesus come and change all that?

John 17:3….
”This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
If Jesus said that everlasting life depends on knowing “the only true God”….AND….”the one he sent”, what does it mean if we do NOT know the God and Father of the one he “sent”?

And the third “person” is missing entirely in this statement from Jesus himself…..so who is Yahweh?….not Jesus and not the holy spirit.

 

[Aunty Jane]

To my surprise God has yet another Bible that supersedes the NWT. God is in the process of making his new and only religion known to mankind through a Prophet named Stephen. He will be giving the new Bible and the new ways God is changing everything to the publisher. Be on the lookout for it. Should be around July 25.

Wow! A new prophet named Stephen?…and a new Bible? Not just a translation of the original that we all have translations of, that we prefer?
And a new religion you say? And this Stephen will tell the world about all of these things around July 25th?

Did you know that God sent his last prophet back in the first century? His name was Jesus Christ, and he taught us everything we need to know about his Father and the correct way to worship him….he did not foretell another prophet because Jesus was the last one. (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Any who claim to be “prophets” in these later times will be frauds….pawns of the devil to distract from the truth. All such prophets will come to nothing and their words will mean something only to the deceived.

At the end of the day, it is God who determines those to whom he will reveal his truth….none can come to the son without an invitation from his Father…..(John 6:65)

What will you do if Stephen is rejected and his new religion and Bible are cast among the thousands that have already unsuccessfully, come and gone? I guess we will have to wait and see….

 

[Jack]

You are making a serious error. Catholicism mistranslated the Greek word proskeneau for Jesus, It carries 5 different meanings from Greek to English-1) worship to God-2) obeisance to a king-3) honor to a judge and 2 others. All know 100% that if one has a God like Jesus does( Psalm 45:7, John 20:17, Rev 3:12) no worship to one who has a God. Obeisance to a king is what Jesus gets bowed to.
The other fact that backs this truth= Jehovah was already( 1Chron 16:31) king, Jesus had to be appointed( Daniel 7:13-15) as a king by his God and Father( ancient of days)-but he as well must hand the kingdom back and subject himself( 1Cor 15:24-28)--God is in subjection to no one. God has all authority forever, Jesus had to be given authority.
Catholicism( 2Thess 2:3) screwed up translating, removed Gods name from Gods real bible where God willed it-all by satans will to mislead and it does that.
God fixed his bible=The New world translation.

And you said our English Bibles are Satanic! And Aunty said Jesus' teachings on Hell are Satanic! That's JW doctrine!