Validity of Scripture, the Apocrypha versus the King James

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Hobie

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From my X / Twitter “For you” feed:

”In 1400, it took monks a year to copy a Bible. Only institutions and the wealthy could afford one. Most people were illiterate. For centuries, the Catholic Church protected the Word of God from heretical translations - another reason to thank God for the Catholic Church!”


God works in mysterious ways. I thank him for it.
Since they are the ones who banned it from the people, I don't think they are the ones to thank. It is despite them that it got to the people..
 

Matthias

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Since they are the ones who banned it from the people, I don't think they are the ones to thank. It is despite them that it got to the people..

I can’t think of a good reason not to thank God for all who copied the manuscripts, no matter what they did with them.
 

Hobie

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I can’t think of a good reason not to thank God for all who copied the manuscripts, no matter what they did with them.
So those that were change, words deleted, and meanings distorted and context destroyed by corrupted manuscripts is fine with you, need to rethink that my brother..
 

Matthias

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So those that were change, words deleted, and meanings distorted and context destroyed by corrupted manuscripts is fine with you …

No. What is fine with me is God using people who condemn and revile me to copy manuscripts.

… need to rethink that my brother..

My thanks is to God for using those who copied the manuscripts. We no longer have the original documents. If there were no copies made then all we would have is word of mouth.
 

doctrox

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My thanks is to God for using those who copied the manuscripts. We no longer have the original documents.
We don't need them, else God would have provided them. IOW, inspiration and preservation have nothing to do with any "originals" and are not dependent on men.

If there were no copies made then all we would have is word of mouth.
...which is what the Apocrypha is i.e. Jewish oral traditions.
 

Matthias

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We don't need them, else God would have provided them.

This is the first time I recall ever meeting someone who said we don’t need the documents.

IOW, inspiration and preservation have nothing to do with any "originals" and are not dependent on men.


...which is what the Apocrypha is i.e. Jewish oral traditions.
 

doctrox

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To be crystal,
We no longer have the original documents.
Nor should we, else God would have provided them.

Like doubting Thomas, they say, "Except I see in my hands the prints of the originals...I will not believe." The error of this stance is rooted in an inacquaintance with the biblical definition of 'scripture'. When used, the term always refers to copies, not the original paper. Timothy (2 Tim. 3:15), the Bereans (Acts 17:11) and the eunuch (Acts 8:32) did not have the original in their possession yet they "searched" and "knew" "the scriptures."
 

Matthias

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To be crystal,

Nor should we, else God would have provided them.

Like doubting Thomas, they say, "Except I see in my hands the prints of the originals...I will not believe." The error of this stance is rooted in an inacquaintance with the biblical definition of 'scripture'. When used, the term always refers to copies, not the original paper. Timothy (2 Tim. 3:15), the Bereans (Acts 17:11) and the eunuch (Acts 8:32) did not have the original in their possession yet they "searched" and "knew" "the scriptures."

We have copies, thanks to the work of the copyists- including those in the Catholic Church.

Criticism for thanking God for that seems to me to be misplaced.
 

doctrox

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You've misunderstood.

And regardless of who did any copying, the Lord is the one who inspired his words and preserved his words.

Of course we would have two "bibles" today - God's, and Satan's. And, of course, the one would be pure, and the other would be corrupt.
 

Matthias

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You've misunderstood.

And regardless of who did any copying, the Lord is the one who inspired his words and preserved his words.

Of course we would have two "bibles" today - God's, and Satan's. And, of course, the one would be pure, and the other would be corrupt.

I’ve thanked God for those who copied the manuscripts.
 

Dan Clarkston

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And regardless of who did any copying, the Lord is the one who inspired his words and preserved his words.

Exactly, and those claiming otherwise are saying the Lord is not powerful enough to watch over and preserve His Word... whether they admit it, or realize it.
 
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Hobie

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No. What is fine with me is God using people who condemn and revile me to copy manuscripts.



My thanks is to God for using those who copied the manuscripts. We no longer have the original documents. If there were no copies made then all we would have is word of mouth.
Need to look closer as there are thousands of manuscripts that show the Alexandrian codices are corrupted..."While there are over 5000 known New Testament manuscripts, attention has been placed on less than ten. Of these, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus have been exalted as the “oldest and best” manuscripts. The oldest claim has been disproved elsewhere. This document will focus on the nature of these two favored manuscripts. Sinaiticus has been recently made available to all on the internet by the Codex Sinaiticus Project, with the mainstream media and general Christians fawning over this “world’s oldest Bible.” This manuscript, in conjunction with Codex Vaticanus, form the basis for most modern Bible translations. However, these two manuscripts differ substantially from the text of the bulk of the manuscripts."
 

Matthias

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“In fact, most scribes were extremely diligent, even meticulous in copying checking and rechecking what they wrote. Sometimes they would count the number of words and even letters of the original and compare it to the copy, to make sure nothing had been added or left out.

The good news for us is that the scribal errors of spelling and inserted or omitted words are normally obvious and easy to spot. They take nothing away from the reliability of the original manuscripts or the basic message of the Bible. In fact, textual critics are certain of 99.5% of the biblical texts. The only uncertainties involve one half of one percent of all Scripture.

”… there are about 5,686 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament and over 19,000 Syriac, Latin, Coptic amd Aramaic. This makes nearly 25,000 manuscripts, ...”

 

Jay Ross

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With any translation, only a few words need changing for the context of the translation of the source language text scriptures to be radically changed from the original intent/context of the source texts being used.

The belief that God gave prescribed land to possess forever is a fallacy that is not supported by scripture and/or history. The Hebrew word Root Word, "owlam," has the meaning of "a period of time where the vanishing point of that time period ends, is beyond our ability to comprehend." In other words, "owlam" has a 'finite' duration and is not 'infinite' as the English translations of this word as 'forever' suggests.

In my paraphrasing of Genesis 13:14-17, I have expressed these verses in this manner: -

Genesis 13:14-17: - 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land/the entity of the earth which you see I give to you and/this entity to your descendants forever/for a period of time where the end point of this time period will be beyond their ability to comprehend. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for Me to give it to you/this entity."​

In my paraphrasing above, any part of the NKJV translation that I do not agree with, I have changed the colour of that text so that it is difficult to see and have made bold the text that I would use to replace the words found in the NKJV translation.

The Bible and the recorded history tell us that Israel began to gain possession of this land after they began entering the land and crossing the Jordan River. After the death of King Solomon, the possession of the described land was lost except for the Land of Canaan which was promised to Abraham in Genesis 17 before Isaac was born.

The NKJV as written suggests that Abraham, along with his descendant, was also given the described land entity in Genesis 13:14-17 and 15:17-21.

The four paraphrasing changes that I have made in Genesis 13:14-17 presents a different context to this passage which better fits story of Israel's possession of this described land entity.

Is my paraphrasing of these four verses infallible? I would hope so, however, just like the translators, I too am also able to make mistakes in my understanding of God's intended context in the scriptures.

I have found that, over the years, I have been prompted to dig a little deeper to determine whether or not the translators have got their respective translations right or compromised the translation to have agreement within the committee charged to produce the translation.

Shalom
 

Hobie

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“In fact, most scribes were extremely diligent, even meticulous in copying checking and rechecking what they wrote. Sometimes they would count the number of words and even letters of the original and compare it to the copy, to make sure nothing had been added or left out.

The good news for us is that the scribal errors of spelling and inserted or omitted words are normally obvious and easy to spot. They take nothing away from the reliability of the original manuscripts or the basic message of the Bible. In fact, textual critics are certain of 99.5% of the biblical texts. The only uncertainties involve one half of one percent of all Scripture.

”… there are about 5,686 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament and over 19,000 Syriac, Latin, Coptic amd Aramaic. This makes nearly 25,000 manuscripts, ...”

Except when they are taken out or completely missing the chapter. Need to discern the extent of the corruption and their purpose. When it's not there, how can you say it's true to what was given..
 

Matthias

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Except when they are taken out or completely missing the chapter. Need to discern the extent of the corruption and their purpose. When it's not there, how can you say it's true to what was given..

Yes. What is your goal with this thread?