Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False

[GRACE ambassador]

to teach and promote false theories and doctrines, is a serious matter and those who do it can expect a severe Judgment

Yes sir, we agree, no argument there, because of The [ Heavenly ] Body Of Christ Bema Judgment Seat (1Co 3:8-15 AV),
where those with "wood, hay, and stubble", which are wrong ( false theories/doctrines ) building materials as "co-labourers
with God", will Severely "lose reward, although saved." (v, 15)

We don't mind being humbly Corrected where "God Teaches us we are wrong." But, to date { almost 3 years *}, not one has shown us or argued "The Biblical Remedy" for our so-called "pre-fib lie from the pits of hell, false theory, etc, etc, etc."

How, exactly, is name-calling, accusations, and slander of "good" Christians going to Encourage And Edify us enough to
"change our ways/beliefs" so That When we stand In Front Of The Righteous Judge, we will Instead "receive rewards!"
for The Right { gold, silver, and precious stones vs. 12 and 14 }, materials used, building Correctly On The
Foundation Of The Lord Jesus Christ,

Eh?

*
Only one has "asked us" about God's Method Of obeying His Command To "Rightly Divide" His Word Of Truth.

Thus, we are Still waiting for humble and kind discussion / Correction { If needed } of this Very Important Matter Of:

God's Great GRACE Departure!​

Amen.



Thus we believe, have spoken, and thus we Stand! Praise His Holy Name!!

 

[Davy]

Lol…accusations is just irrelevant blabbing.

If you are so unfamiliar with BASIC scriptural Teaching….you can ask for any scriptural reference (regarding what I said) that YOU searched for but could NOT find … like Scripture Teaches!

I would like to see you backup what you say in God's Word. If you cannot do that, then why are you even here on a Christian forum??

 

[Davy]

Matt 3:
[7] …. who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

That "wrath" is upon the deceived at the end that think to 'FLY AWAY' like those 1st ones TAKEN of Luke 17 that Jesus 'warned' the Church against! That is actually what you have been wrongly taught to point to by the deceived pre-trib rapture preachers you listen to and follow...

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

Those "eagles" above are put for VULTURES, because the type "body" Lord Jesus was pointing to there is about a DEAD CARCASE, as per the Matthew 24:28 version of that above answer to His disciples...

Matt 24:27-28
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

That is what those on man's false FLY AWAY pre-tribulational rapture doctrine are going to be like just prior to Lord Jesus' actual return after the tribulation. They'll be like a DEAD CARCASE that those fowls will be feeding on. And THAT... is the metaphor Lord Jesus gave in answer to His disciple's question of, "Where, Lord?" in the above Luke 17:37 verse.

I don't want ANY believer on Jesus Christ to fall into that 1st one TAKEN trap, for that will be a falling away to the false-Messiah that comes first, prior to Lord Jesus' true coming afterwards.

 

[Davy]

Certainly will Keep Believing God And His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:

Amen.

I pray and hope you do.

 

[Keraz]

We don't mind being humbly Corrected where "God Teaches us we are wrong." But, to date { almost 3 years *}, not one has shown us or argued "The Biblical Remedy" for our so-called "pre-fib lie from the pits of hell, false theory, etc, etc, etc."

I have tried for years to convince 'rapture to heaven' believers of their wrong belief. Totally without success, but with a lot of abuse for challenging their strongly held doctrine.
I have quoted many proofs of how the Christian peoples are present on earth until Jesus Returns, Revelation 12:14 & 17 show it best.
I also quote the six times that Jesus said such a thing was impossible. They are all dismissed by making them mean what they plainly don't.

When Jesus does Return, He will be accompanied by the armies of heaven only. His angels will go over the world to gather His faithful people to Him, in Jerusalem. Mostly those who were kept in the place of safety. Rev 12:6 & 14

Rapture believers are generally good Christians, therefore they are saved and have the Promise of eventual Eternal life. So any false beliefs are not a Salvation issue.
But when their fondly expected rapture doesn't happen, there will some whose faith will fail, to their Eternal loss.

Maybe I have been too critical and perhaps; judgmental, but my desire is only to help misguided people to see and understand the amazing favour that God intends to shower upon all those who have proved their trust and faith as they pass thru all that must happen, 1 Peter 4:12

---

 

[Taken]

I would like to see you backup what you say in God's Word. If you cannot do that, then why are you even here on a Christian forum??

I suppose you would like me to read and learn FOR “you”.
Not going to happen.

If you can’t find in Scripture something I’ve said…ask about that.

 

[Taken]

That "wrath" is upon the deceived at the end that think to 'FLY AWAY' …

Davy…”The wrath IS….”

IS…your answer to WHO has told YOU of the wrath to come?

Wrath is not a “who”.
Wrath is a “what”.

Wrath “IS” a Negative Consequence of a mans Anger upon other men.

Scripturally, WRATH is the WARNING of A Very Strong Powerful Negative Consequence of Gods ANGER….Foretold / Warned, BY God…To be Exacted upon Unrighteous men.

 

[The Light]

I would like to see you backup what you say in God's Word. If you cannot do that, then why are you even here on a Christian forum??

You have already run Davy. Why are you here if you cannot respond to your own challenge?

I have already put forth a few verses in regard to your challenge about God's word.

You cannot respond. I will repost for you.

You think you know when He will come, but the Lord Himself warns that He will come when you think not. Is this scripture in error?

Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The Lord tells us what will happen in Luke 21. Then He says we can escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before the Son of man. Do you not believe that we can escape all the things listed In Matthew 24?

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I will be happy to prove you are in error regarding the pretrib rapture with scripture.

You claim that the belief of a pretrib rapture is of the devil. How is it that you are unable to respond with the Word of God?

 

[rebuilder 454]

How would that be in conflict with my position?

The Lord comes for the Church BEFORE the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Lord comes for the 12 tribes across the earth which are the seed of the woman, Israel. Life is normal for those that have taken the mark during the tribulation. The tribulation is when Satan goes after those that have not taken the mark.

Your belief that the tribulation and wrath of God are the same event is in error as proven by scripture.

No I do not believe " they are the same event", just like I don't believe everyday of Jesus earthly walk was the same event.
( even though I can say his earthly ministry is one event.)
There can be many many events in one event
Ex.
☆The plagues in Egypt
☆The 40 years of wondering by the delivered Hebrews

Both one event containing many events

 

[rebuilder 454]

You have already run Davy. Why are you here if you cannot respond to your own challenge?

I have already put forth a few verses in regard to your challenge about God's word.

You cannot respond. I will repost for you.

You think you know when He will come, but the Lord Himself warns that He will come when you think not. Is this scripture in error?

Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The Lord tells us what will happen in Luke 21. Then He says we can escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before the Son of man. Do you not believe that we can escape all the things listed In Matthew 24?

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I will be happy to prove you are in error regarding the pretrib rapture with scripture.

You claim that the belief of a pretrib rapture is of the devil. How is it that you are unable to respond with the Word of God?

They actually think of eschatology as salvation itself.

It is akin to communism." Follow my weird concepts or die"

You and I are brothers but disagree on some things.
Saved and family.
Postribbers call their pretribber brothers "satan and demons going to hell"

That alone should steer the unsuspecting into the truth of the pretrib rapture.

 

[Keraz]

Postribbers call their pretribber brothers "satan and demons going to hell"

That alone should steer the unsuspecting into the truth of the pretrib rapture.

You exude such confidence in your beliefs. It will be a terrible shock when you remain on earth when disaster strikes. Luke 21; 34-35

I or anyone I know, or have seen on the Forums; do not call our Christian brothers and sisters, horrible names. We just feel sorry for how they have been deceived by false ideas.

 

[The Light]

It will be a terrible shock when you remain on earth when disaster strikes. Luke 21; 34-35

The verses that you quote are about the day of the Lord, the one-year wrath of God.

Believers are not appointed to wrath. If you plan on remaining on earth during the wrath of God, you are not a believer.

I or anyone I know, or have seen on the Forums; do not call our Christian brothers and sisters, horrible names.

You can't be serious.

We just feel sorry for how they have been deceived by false ideas.

I'm always puzzled how you can't see believers in heaven at the marriage supper of the Lamb in Revelation 19.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The verses that you quote are about the day of the Lord, the one-year wrath of God.

There is no indication anywhere that the wrath of the day of the Lord lasts for one year. Paul described it as "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). If it lasted for one year, then it would not be described as "sudden destruction". It will happen quickly and unbelievers will have no opportunity to escape it. Those who are worthy (believers) will escape it because our bodies will be changed to be immortal and we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

I'm always puzzled how you can't see believers in heaven at the marriage supper of the Lamb in Revelation 19.

That's the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven and no marriage supper takes place there. It says in Revelation 19:7 " the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.". Being in heaven and being ready for the marriage is not the same as the marriage taking place.

 

[The Light]

There is no indication anywhere that the wrath of the day of the Lord lasts for one year.

Here is one indication. Do you need more than this?
Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Paul described it as "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). If it lasted for one year, then it would not be described as "sudden destruction". It will happen quickly and unbelievers will have no opportunity to escape it.

Here is where the Lord comes as a thief.
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Here is the sudden destruction.

Revelation 19
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Those who are worthy (believers) will escape it because our bodies will be changed to be immortal and we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened.

The second rapture occurs at the 6th seal. Seen here...............

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And seen here..........

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

That's the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven and no marriage supper takes place there. It says in Revelation 19:7 " the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.". Being in heaven and being ready for the marriage is not the same as the marriage taking place.

No sir. Those are both the Church in heaven and those that came out of great tribulation. They have new bodies as the Lord has come for the Church before the seals are opened and for the seed of the woman at the 6th seal. Seen here.......

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And the bridegroom remains in heaven and does not go to war until a year is passed.

Deuteronomy 24
5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You exude such confidence in your beliefs. It will be a terrible shock when you remain on earth when disaster strikes. Luke 21; 34-35

I or anyone I know, or have seen on the Forums; do not call our Christian brothers and sisters, horrible names. We just feel sorry for how they have been deceived by false ideas.

Just pretend " before the flood, one taken/left" is not spoken by Jesus himself.
Then convince yourself that Lot was rescued AFTER Sodom burned.
Oh wait...you already do that and more.

 

[Davy]

I suppose you would like me to read and learn FOR “you”.
Not going to happen.

If you can’t find in Scripture something I’ve said…ask about that.

No, I don't have a problem with Bible Scripture. I'm not saying I know it all, but I certainly don't have a problem with what Lord Jesus revealed about His future coming to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation, per Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

But apparently, you do... have a problem with Bible Scripture as written, because the false pre-trib rapture doctrine of men that you believe goes directly against what Lord Jesus said.

 

[Davy]

Davy…”The wrath IS….”

IS…your answer to WHO has told YOU of the wrath to come?

Wrath is not a “who”.
Wrath is a “what”.

Wrath “IS” a Negative Consequence of a mans Anger upon other men.

Scripturally, WRATH is the WARNING of A Very Strong Powerful Negative Consequence of Gods ANGER….Foretold / Warned, BY God…To be Exacted upon Unrighteous men.

We all know the "wrath" you are pointing to is from 1 Thessalonians 5:9 where you are taught by pre-trib rapture theory preachers to quote. That specific "wrath" Paul mentioned there is for the 7th Vial timing of the "day of the Lord", the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes to gather His Church, and pour out His cup of wrath upon the wicked...

Here is even a Bible Scripture 'Seal' where Lord Jesus showed that timing of His cup of wrath...

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

Even here, in the Revelation 16 Scripture, Lord Jesus revealed the time of that cup of wrath upon the wicked and deceived. And He even warned His Church about it just before its coming on the "day of the Lord" (last day of this world)...

Rev 16:15-20
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Jesus gave that above warning to His Church within the 6th Vial timing of that Revelation 16 Chapter. Because He said "I come as a thief", that means He is pointing to the same "day of the Lord" (last day) that Apostle Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5.

And the warning He gives above is that His faithful Church is to be 'watching', and keep their garments, otherwise... if not, one will walk spiritually naked and others will see those naked in shame when He returns on the last day. Those who will think the coming false-Messiah is Lord Jesus having returned will be in that shamed group because they did not 'watch'. Lord Jesus gave His Church the SIGNS of the end leading up to His return so we would know what to be 'watching' like He commanded us. Those on man's false pre-trib rapture theory are NOT watching, for the pre-trib rapture school lies and says those SIGNS of the end Jesus gave are for the unbelieving Jews, and not for Christ's Church.


16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
KJV

Truly, you should try reading more of your Bible instead of trying to quote verses you don't understand.

 

[Davy]

You have already run Davy. Why are you here if you cannot respond to your own challenge?

I have already put forth a few verses in regard to your challenge about God's word.

You cannot respond. I will repost for you.

It's probably because I have you on IGNORE. So don't believe for a second that I'm reading all your posts, for you surely do not do read most of mine.

You think you know when He will come, but the Lord Himself warns that He will come when you think not. Is this scripture in error?

Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You have to keep reading what Lord Jesus said there in Matthew 24, not... cut it short and apply your own... opinion:

Matt 24:42-47
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

No man knows the day or hour of Christ's future coming. So why 'watch', right? Isn't that what your pre-trib rapture theory preachers say, why watch? And they don't know what to 'watch' that Jesus commanded either, do they? Isn't that really your point, that we cannot... watch??

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

BUT... Lord Jesus had MORE TO SAY there about all that!

Let's see you try and explain that, "... if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come" that Jesus said!

Never mind, I'll explain what Jesus meant by that.

IF... and a BIG IF... the goodman of the house (us, Christ's Church that 'watch' like Jesus commanded), KNOW IN WHAT WATCH the thief comes, then we will NOT suffer our house to be broken into! Actually very simple.

Do you not know about the different 'watches' of the night written in God's Word?? Have you not yet learned that is what Lord Jesus was pointing to in the above Scripture about no man knows the day or hour of His coming, BUT... IF... the goodman knew in WHAT WATCH THE THIEF COMES...?


Here is Smith's Bible Dictionary about the Jew's Biblical Watch Periods:

Watches Of Night ​

​

The Jews, like the Greeks and Romans, divided the night into military watches instead of hours, each watch representing the period for which sentinels or pickets remained on duty. The proper Jewish reckoning recognized only three such watches, entitled the first or "beginning of the watches," Lam 2:19, the middle watch, Judg 7:19, and the morning watch. Ex 14:24; 1 Sam 11:11. These would last respectively from sunset to 10 P.M.; from 10 P.M. to 2 A.M.; and from 2 A.M. to sunrise. After the establishment of the Roman supremacy, the number of watches was increased to four, which were described either according to their numerical order, as in the case of the "fourth watch," Matt 14:25, or by the terms "even," "midnight," "cock-crowing" and "morning." Mark 13:35. These terminated respectively at 9 P.M., midnight, 3 A.M. and 6 A.M.​

(from Smith's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)​

That makes Lord Jesus' Message of Matthew 24:42 have MORE information with it. And the REST of what Jesus gave with that is for His faithful elect Church that listen to HIM, and thus will not be deceived.

The SIGNS of the end leading up to His return, which He was giving His faithful elect Church there in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, is WHAT HE GAVE US TO BE WATCHING. And at the last verse of the Mark 13 version, Jesus commanded ALL OF US to WATCH!


44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
KJV

Notice how that goodman of the house WILL BE REWARDED WHEN JESUS RETURNS, because he will have WATCHED those SIGNS of the end Jesus gave, and thus will KNOW in WHAT WATCH THE THIEF COMES, and not be deceived along with the rest of the world.

And in Revelation 16:15 when Jesus warned His Church within the 6th Vial timing when He said, "I come as a thief", and then He shows His coming on the final 7th VIAL, and His cup of wrath poured out then, just what kind of WATCH do you think that is?? By that He just TOLD US that His coming for His Church is on the LAST DAY of this present world! That day is called "the day of the Lord", which per Apostles Paul and Peter is to come "as a thief in the night"!

And what is truly funny and ludicrous at the same time, is how the pre-trib rapture preachers try to use that idea of Jesus coming "as a thief in the night" like none can be found WATCHING and thus wait and be prepared for His return AFTER the tribulation, like Jesus commanded HIS FAITHFUL CHURCH!


(I'm curious. I always highlight a Bible Scripture quote in that blue type, with red accent of certain phrases. But you did the opposite; you highlighted YOUR OWN WORDS in that blue type, and left your Bible quotes in standard black type. What made you do that?)

 

[Davy]

They actually think of eschatology as salvation itself.

It is akin to communism." Follow my weird concepts or die"

You and I are brothers but disagree on some things.
Saved and family.
Postribbers call their pretribber brothers "satan and demons going to hell"

That alone should steer the unsuspecting into the truth of the pretrib rapture.

That certainly is a LIE, and a bunch of balderdash, and is actually more aligned with how Communists think.

 

[Davy]

There is no indication anywhere that the wrath of the day of the Lord lasts for one year. Paul described it as "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). If it lasted for one year, then it would not be described as "sudden destruction". It will happen quickly and unbelievers will have no opportunity to escape it.

In Isaiah 24, God is pointing to the "sudden destruction" event Apostle Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5...

Isa 24:1
1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
KJV

That idea in the Hebrew of making the earth "empty", and "turneth it upside down", is an expression God gives like taking a bottle of fluid and turning it quickly upside sound, and it makes a gurgling sound as it empties.