Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False

[Davy]

“Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False”​

The Concept of A CONSEQUENCE Being True OR False IS Wholly Dependent upon on the Individuals Choices…

That above is essentially like saying whether something is true or not is like there exists multiple choices available to all individuals.

That kind of reasoning reveals nothing but deception and confusion. There is ONLY ONE true choice regarding Bible Scripture about the timing of the true coming of Lord Jesus to gather His Church, and I have very well covered that from Bible Scripture, AS WRITTEN, even several times on this Forum.

Dispensationalism…is a philosophy with many divisions.

Pre- is a concept of an Order / Way something IS realized, manifested.

Dispensationalism is loosely... based on the different time dispensations of God's Plan of Salvation, from Genesis through Revelation. I say loosely because Darby who was first to preach a Pre-trib Rapture in a Christian Church was who started man's false Dispensationalist theories which ADD... events to The Bible that are NOT written.

An example:
Because of John Darby's deception with a false Pre-trib Rapture to heaven prior to the "great tribulation", he thus believed that Jesus comes prior... to the trib and takes His saints to heaven with Him, and He and they are protected in heaven while the unbelieving go through the "great tribulation" on earth. He then added to that with the Church and Jesus after... the tribulation reigning in a separate kingdom in heaven while the nation of Israel is restored on earth for the "thousand years" of Rev.20.

Neither of those above ideas about the Church are written in God's Word. Instead what is written is this -- Jesus comes to gather His Church after... the "great tribulation" like He and Paul said, and He begins His future reign here on earth, with His faithful gathered saints, in Jerusalem on earth. Even Revelation 5:10 reveals His elect will reign with Him, ON THE EARTH. And His Kingdom will be setup there on earth where Jerusalem is today, which Revelation 20:9 calls "the camp of the saints". That... is what is actually written in God's Word.

Tribulation is an Unpleasant EFFECT which Individuals CAN, MAY, WILL Experience.

Not NEWS….Not SECRET…

A Living individual IN this World…
from the Beginning of Gods Creation AND Making of manKind… HAVE, WILL and WILL Continue to BE Subject to Tribulations,which Unpleasantly EFFECT THEM.

* Men…on EarthWho ARE Liars, Cheats, Thieves, Murderers, Arsonists, Invaders, etc. Perpetuate Tribulations.
* Fallen Angels…on EarthWho ARE liars, cheats, thieves, murderers, invaders, etc. Perpetuate Tribulations.
* God in Heaven…WHO IS ALL Powerful AND CONTROLS the WEATHER…
Routinely: Sends upon the Earth Weather that WHICH:
1) is a BLESSING and pleasant experience…
AND
2) is a WARNIG and unpleasant Tribulation experience…

Gods Word…Warns of men Against men.
Gods Word…Warns of Fallen Angels Against men.
Gods Word…Warns of men AGAINST the Lord God.
Gods Word…Warns…of God Against men WHO ARE Against God

Gods Word…REVEALS…an ANCIENT time in the history of manKIND WHEN the Whole Existance of manKIND (1, 2, 5 Million people or so in Existence) …ALL AGAINST God…EXCEPT for 8 individuals whose Belief and Standing WAS WITH GOD.

Today…Feb 2025…( estimation per fluctuating numbers)….Approx…
* 8 BILLION People.
* 40% (openly and secretly) Claim Belief in the Lord God.
* 20% (openly and secretly) Claim a “converted” Relationship WITH the Lord God, and Relationship of “IN” Christ.

Reviewing…the ancient History…
The 8 Believing and Standing WITH God…
WHERE were THEY…step by step…
From WHEN God Began SENDING HIS TRIBULATIONS DOWN FROM HEAVEN UP ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH?

? Davy…can you answer ?

Glory to God,
Taken

The rest of your post is just silly hogwash touchy-feely irrelevant statements that align more with man's philosophy than actually with God's written Word. Either one believes God's Word AS WRITTEN, or they believe something else. You have chosen something else about the events of Christ gathering His Church and timing of the "great tribulation".

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not really. Of course, most that think they are post trib think they are post wrath but they are not.

According to the Word of God, the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The tribulation is Satans time to hunt down those that do not take the mark.

The Day of the Lord, which is the wrath of God and a day of vengeance is God time to punish an evil unbelieving world.




The fact that you are not able to understand what is right in front of your face does not change the truth of the scripture.

Do you see any signs of the sun, moon and stars in Revelation 19. No.

Do you see any angels gathering the elect in Revelation 19. No.

Do you think that when Jesus shows up for the second harvest with His angels that He won't show up in power and glory?

There is no evidence that supports your position. All the evidence shows that Jesus comes in power and glory at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days and before the wrath of God.


Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.



EXCELLENT. You got something correct.

So how it that you understand that Armageddon is over at the 7th trumpet and yet you want to place the vials coming after the 7th trumpet. Your very post proves your past arguments were in error.

Both the trumpet and vial happen in the same timeframe which is the 7th seal, Day of the Lord, Wrath of God.


Please produce any evidence that the tribulation period is 7 years long. There is a 70th week of Daniel. There is also a period of 7 years from the time a covenant with many is made until the things of Daniel 9 are complete. But there is absolutely no evidence that the tribulation is 7 years.

Produce one scripture if there is a 7 year tribulation. You can't.

The tribulation does not begin until the abomination of desolation is set up, and that's not at the beginning of the week.

EXCELLENT. You got something correct

Yeah, you tried so hard to make that phrase. "Power and great glory" go away. But you just can't wiggle out of it.
You got so many things wrong.
I don't even know where to begin, but you've hinged your entire doctrine on a farce.
I see the post trippers do this all the time. Where they're entire doctrine is based on a phrase. And just throw all verses against what they're trying to prove to the wind.

Every “gathering” is NOT a “Rapture”.

A Rapture is a “Lifting UP”… of Specific individuals Body’s, TO a Specific Place that is Not Earth.

Those participating IN the RAPTURE…
ARE NOT “gathered” then “Lifted up”.

Glory to God,
Taken

Well kinda.
But the actual going up is considered a gathering.
( a harvest)
Wheat , barley, and fruit.
3 harvests.

But I do see your point.

 

[Davy]

EXCELLENT. You got something correct

Yeah, you tried so hard to make that phrase. "Power and great glory" go away. But you just can't wiggle out of it.
You got so many things wrong.
I don't even know where to begin, but you've hinged your entire doctrine on a farce.
I see the post trippers do this all the time. Where they're entire doctrine is based on a phrase. And just throw all verses against what they're trying to prove to the wind.
Well kinda.
But the actual going up is considered a gathering.
( a harvest)
Wheat , barley, and fruit.
3 harvests.

But I do see your point.

No real points in the above if one will read it carefully brethren.

It's a natural reaction for those on man's FALSE pre-trib rapture theory to think to come to its defense. Their problem is all they can do is throw out meaningless statements, because they have NO actual Bible Scripture that supports their FALSE theory they have been deceived into believing.

But those of us in Christ that LISTEN to Lord Jesus in His Word, have ample Scripture evidence for His future coming AFTER... the "great tribulation". All one need do is simply read and heed what Lord Jesus said about the time of His future return per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

 

[The Light]

THIS IS RIDICULOUS. NO WONDER YOU CAN NOT DISCERN THE BIBLE.

Do you see Jesus gathering anyone at your supposed rapture verse of mat 24??? NO.

No. I see the angels sent to gather the elect in Matthew 24.

Do you think the elect are the unrighteous? Come on.

Do you see any gathering of the earth ??? No.

I see a gathering from the earth.
The Word says that He will send His angels to gather the ELECT from EARTH and heaven.

Does that sound like Armageddon to you? The elect are gathered from heaven and earth in Matthew 24. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the events of Revelation 19

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

You probably think stars actually fall from heaven.

They do. Are you saying that the Word of God is wrong. You might want to figure what a star is.

 

[The Light]

Ahh, it would appear we have another prophecy expert on our hands.

Ahh. Another blind man telling me what they see.

heretic​

/hĕr′ĭ-tĭk/​

noun​

In theology, a professed believer who adopts and persistently maintains religious opinions contrary to the accepted standards of his church.

Used in a sentence:
John Darby and Cyrus Scofield are two of the most abominable heretic(s) in the history of Christendom.

There are five wise and five foolish.

It is the five wise that are looking for the Lord to come in an hour that you think not. How would someone who believed in dispensations be a heretic?

 

[The Light]

It's a natural reaction for those on man's FALSE pre-trib rapture theory to think to come to its defense. Their problem is all they can do is throw out meaningless statements, because they have NO actual Bible Scripture that supports their FALSE theory they have been deceived into believing.

Is that why you run every time scripture comes out Davy?

But those of us in Christ that LISTEN to Lord Jesus in His Word, have ample Scripture evidence for His future coming AFTER... the "great tribulation". All one need do is simply read and heed what Lord Jesus said about the time of His future return per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

He is coming after the great tribulation at the 6th seal. He also comes in an hour that you think not. Do you not believe HIm?

 

[Taken]

That above is essentially like saying whether something is true or not is like there exists multiple choices available to all individuals.

Regarding People…Fact is:
There ARE multiple Choices For all People.
There ARE consequences FOR Every Choice.
There ARE multiple TIMES FOR consequences to come into Fruition.

Regarding God…
Regarding Gods Word…
Regarding Gods Power…
Fact IS:
He does NOT Change..
Fact IS:
God HAS “offered” INCREASED beneficial OPTIONS for manKIND to CHOOSE and reap the Benefits thereof.

There is ONLY ONE true choice regarding Bible Scripture about the timing of the true coming of Lord Jesus to gather His Church, and I have very well covered that from Bible Scripture, AS WRITTEN, even several times on this Forum.

The Son of Man came to Earth.(Humbled)
On Earth, He became REVEALED…is the Lord, called JESUS…was REVEALED is the CHRIST…was REVEALED “HE” Returned to Heaven, Being Last Seen IN the clouds.

The Son of Man …Shall Return TO the Clouds, SO…ALL CAN “SEE” Him.

Clouds are Not the Earth.

He Who “Returns” to Earth IS He who was REVEALED…Leaving Earth..
Christ (Jesus, Power, Wisdom, Power, world Governor, King, Lord, wonderful,
The mighty God, The everlasting father, The Prince of Peace.

Darby who was first to preach a Pre-trib Rapture in a Christian Church …

Don’t much care for “labels” that can mean whatever to whomever.

Dispensationalism … means whatever individuals or groups want it to include or exclude.

Don’t know “Darby”, never read “his” works or seen “his quoted words, when he is mentioned from time to time.

Gods Word has Revealed A Second (and Last) Event He Shall Orchestrate and Control From Heaven, upon the Whole of this (Earth) world and it’s “inhabitants”…and WHY.

Christs “Church” (soul Saved By the choosing of an individual) of Lamb of God’s Offering…Have Received their Consequence OF a Restored and saved Soul.

Christs Church (spirit Quickened By the choosing of an individual) of The Christ of Gods Offering…Have already Laid down their bodily Life and Have Received their Consequence OF a new born spirit AND PROMISE to BE…

1) Not appointed (subject to) Wrath
2) Risen Up Body, soul, spirit, to the Clouds, by Command of the Lord, BEFORE God Sends His Tribulations and Authorised Wraths of the Lamb, Wraths of the Devil, Wraths of God UPON the inhabitants of the Earth.
3) Meet the Lord in the air/ clouds.
4) Forever with the Lord where He Is.

This Raising up (of Glorified Body’s with saved souls, quickened spirits)is called a Rapture and commences Before Tribulations and Wrath are sent down from Heaven.

At no other time…during Gods Tribulation or after Gods Tribulation is there an EVENT called the Rapture. (Body’s raised to the Clouds)

During Gods sent Tribulations and authorized Wraths…men on the face of the Earth are experiencing portions or all of the Tribulations and Wrath…
Some WILL…. Become soul saved, spirit quickened, their bodies physically killed..
But NO body’s Shall at those times rise up to the Clouds..
Resurrections…and gathering of body’s with or against The Lord God shall commence.
The RAPTURED are with the Lord..the King when He is in the clouds, on a cloud, ACTUALLY steps On the Earth…

An example:
Because of John Darby's deception

Not interested in DARBY or an other surmising his words with their words.

of Christ gathering His Church and timing of the "great tribulation".

Some men have “decided” that ONLY Gods Wrath (the vials/ bowls) poured out constitute “great tribulation” …

If that be “your” meaning… I disagree.

Scripture compares…Gods First Sent and Last Sent Tribulations and Wrath …”as Great”.

Scripture Reveals in the First and Last Tribulations a progression of intensity and negative effect for the people upon the face of the Earth…

Whew…praise be to God, Moses and his family were Bodily Lifted Up to the clouds Above the Earth…while God sent Tribulations down upon the Whole earth and it’s inhabitants.

And praise be to God…so also Shall the converted be raised up Bodily, off the face of the Earth, to the clouds before the Next/Last great Tribulation sent down from Heaven.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davy]

Is that why you run every time scripture comes out Davy?


He is coming after the great tribulation at the 6th seal. He also comes in an hour that you think not. Do you not believe HIm?

I haven't seen ANY RELEVANT BIBLE SCRIPTURE provided by those here deceived by man's FALSE pre-trib rapture theory!

I reckon the next thing you pre-tribbers will want to do here is break out your 13 copies of Tim LaHaye's FALSE Left-behind book series!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Wait! God Deceived me into believing All His Scriptures Listed In His Great GRACE Departure, and Yet

man accuses/attacks us as only "making meaningless statements"?

Aren't such accusations/attacks AGAINST the Christianity Board Rules???:

[*]Do not attack another member's character in any way. Address the post content, not the member's character

Needs to be reported, eh?

Amen.

 

[Davy]

Regarding People…Fact is:
There ARE multiple Choices For all People.
There ARE consequences FOR Every Choice.
There ARE multiple TIMES FOR consequences to come into Fruition.

Regarding God…
Regarding Gods Word…
Regarding Gods Power…
Fact IS:
He does NOT Change..
Fact IS:
God HAS “offered” INCREASED beneficial OPTIONS for manKIND to CHOOSE and reap the Benefits thereof.

WOW! Would you look at all that USELESS FODDER ABOVE! NO BIBLE Scripture backup at all!

The Son of Man came to Earth.(Humbled)
On Earth, He became REVEALED…is the Lord, called JESUS…was REVEALED is the CHRIST…was REVEALED “HE” Returned to Heaven, Being Last Seen IN the clouds.

The Son of Man …Shall Return TO the Clouds, SO…ALL CAN “SEE” Him.

Clouds are Not the Earth.

He Who “Returns” to Earth IS He who was REVEALED…Leaving Earth..
Christ (Jesus, Power, Wisdom, Power, world Governor, King, Lord, wonderful,
The mighty God, The everlasting father, The Prince of Peace.

MORE FODDER, NO BIBLE SCRIPTURE BACKUP AT ALL!

I suppose Pre-tribbers expect those of us who actually READ and HEED God's Word as written to just BELIEVE whatever they... say as Truth. So if they SAY that grass is blue, then we had best believe it??!?

 

[Davy]

Wait! God Deceived me into believing All His Scriptures Listed In His Great GRACE Departure, and Yet

man accuses/attacks us as only "making meaningless statements"?

Aren't such accusations/attacks AGAINST the Christianity Board Rules???:

[*]Do not attack another member's character in any way. Address the post content, not the member's character

Needs to be reported, eh?

Amen.

No, such statements of proof are not against the Christianity Board Rules, otherwise, how would anyone be able to show when someone is going against the written Bible Scripture?

And you will do more damage since I know you heed man's false Pre-trib rapture theory, when you try and discipline someone who can show actual Bible Scripture that disproves it...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

So do what you want; God and His Son is my Judge.

 

[Taken]

EXCELLENT. You got something correct

Yeah, you tried so hard to make that phrase. "Power and great glory" go away. But you just can't wiggle out of it.
You got so many things wrong.
I don't even know where to begin, but you've hinged your entire doctrine on a farce.
I see the post trippers do this all the time. Where they're entire doctrine is based on a phrase. And just throw all verses against what they're trying to prove to the wind.
Well kinda.
But the actual going up is considered a gathering.
( a harvest)
Wheat , barley, and fruit.
3 harvests.

But I do see your point.

!! Once called they are all called to the same place… then are the gathered together.

Opposed to “someone” rounding up / gathering.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

WOW! Would you look at all that USELESS FODDER ABOVE! NO BIBLE Scripture backup at all!



MORE FODDER, NO BIBLE SCRIPTURE BACKUP AT ALL!

I suppose Pre-tribbers expect those of us who actually READ and HEED God's Word as written to just BELIEVE whatever they... say as Truth. So if they SAY that grass is blue, then we had best believe it??!?

Lol…accusations is just irrelevant blabbing.

If you are so unfamiliar with BASIC scriptural Teaching….you can ask for any scriptural reference (regarding what I said) that YOU searched for but could NOT find … like Scripture Teaches!

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[Taken]

…man's false Pre-trib rapture theory…

Matt 3:
[7] …. who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

So do what you want

Certainly will Keep Believing God And His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:

Amen.

God and His Son is my Judge

And, Yes, Christ { God, The SON } Is my Judge Of "gold, silver, and precious stone" works offering
Encouragement And Edification to others with His Truth of Great GRACE Departure!

And, Amen!! Hallelujah!! Praise His Holy Name ForEverMore!!!

ps. NO "accusations/slander" = NO reporting, eh?

 

[rebuilder 454]

No real points in the above if one will read it carefully brethren.

It's a natural reaction for those on man's FALSE pre-trib rapture theory to think to come to its defense. Their problem is all they can do is throw out meaningless statements, because they have NO actual Bible Scripture that supports their FALSE theory they have been deceived into believing.

But those of us in Christ that LISTEN to Lord Jesus in His Word, have ample Scripture evidence for His future coming AFTER... the "great tribulation". All one need do is simply read and heed what Lord Jesus said about the time of His future return per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

Matt 24 JESUS SAID.
BEFORE THE FLOOD , one taken, one left.
JESUS SAID his coming will be with "normal life, commerce and everyday activities"..( in DIRECT CONFLICT TO YOU AND Mr LIGHT)
Oh...and in that framing of " before the flood, normal life, and everyday activities," Jesus TELLS US to "watch and be ready"

Yes, take heed to Jesus words.
Maybe you will do that someday.
Since those words of Jesus mean zero to you.

 

[The Light]

I haven't seen ANY RELEVANT BIBLE SCRIPTURE provided by those here deceived by man's FALSE pre-trib rapture theory!

You think you know when He will come, but the Lord Himself warns that He will come when you think not. Is this scripture in error?

Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The Lord tells us what will happen in Luke 21. Then He says we can escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before the Son of man. Do you not believe that we can escape all the things listed In Matthew 24?

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I will be happy to prove you are in error regarding the pretrib rapture with scripture.

 

[The Light]

JESUS SAID his coming will be with "normal life, commerce and everyday activities"..( in DIRECT CONFLICT TO YOU AND Mr LIGHT)

How would that be in conflict with my position?

The Lord comes for the Church BEFORE the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Lord comes for the 12 tribes across the earth which are the seed of the woman, Israel. Life is normal for those that have taken the mark during the tribulation. The tribulation is when Satan goes after those that have not taken the mark.

Your belief that the tribulation and wrath of God are the same event is in error as proven by scripture.

 

[Keraz]

I am saddened to read how people ; good Christians - argue about what will happen at the end of this age.
The Book of Revelation is our guide for the sequence of what must happen before the glorious Return of Jesus. v 6:12 to Rev 19:11

Nowhere in Revelation, is it stated that people will go to live in heaven. That is an idea wrongly construed from some of the Apostles teachings. It is never plainly said, and it is a direct contradiction to how Jesus said; Humans going to heaven was impossible. Six times!

It is not so bad to hold to a wrong belief, That is forgivable.
But to teach and promote false theories and doctrines, is a serious matter and those who do it can expect a severe Judgment. James 3:1