Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Brakelite]

if Jesus was God, then he would 100% know the hour, day and time of his return

Why? Jesus came as a baby. Do you really think that He was aware and had full divine understanding of all science and knowledge from a small child? Or did He learn as He grew? And if that were the case, why would the Father reveal such a thing to the Son if such information wouldn't help Christ's ministry?

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is called “theos” because the meaning, if you look it up in a good concordance, is “any god or goddess”, describing “deities or divinities”.

From Christendom’s viewpoint, treating “theos” as if it only means “God” with a capital “G” is an error.

Trinitarians are schizophrenic on there being only one god, once again denying Scripture.

1 COR 8:5
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),

 

[Ritajanice]

Why? Jesus came as a baby. Do you really think that He was aware and had full divine understanding of all science and knowledge from a small child? Or did He learn as He grew? And if that were the case, why would the Father reveal such a thing to the Son if such information wouldn't help Christ's ministry?

The above is you voicing your opinion and understanding of the trinity, I’m doing the same, plus I’ve posted scripture to show you imo that Jesus is not fully God...
Jesus is in heaven with his Father now?

Does he know when he will return to earth, no he doesn’t..therefore he can’t possibly be fully God.



He is seated with his Father, now, yes?....does he know when he will return to earth?

When Jesus was an adult....did he know the time and day after his death, when he will return back to earth?

He should have shouldn’t he, if he was fully God?
Did Jesus ever preach when he will return to earth after his death...nope!....only God knows the day/ time and hour of Jesus return...

I have tried to explain it as best I can.
Are you with me?

Also did you read Aunty post....why did Jesus need to be anointed by God...to preach/ teach and perform miracles, if he was fully God....what a great point Aunty made.

Readiness at Any Hour
31Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. 32 No oneknows about that day or hour, not even theangels in heaven, nor the Son, but only theFather. 33Be on your guard and stay alert! For you do not know when the appointed time will come.…

 

[locust]

It's contrary to logic - no matter what grade.

P1. There is a 3 person committee that makes up the whole.
P2. One person on this committee is fully the whole.
C. 3 = 1.

if one person is absent can a decision be rightfully made?

 

[Wrangler]

if one person is absent can a decision be rightfully made?

Please connect the dots between this thread, my post and your reply.

 

[Magdala]

The Greek says…”In the beginning was the Word (ho logos) and the Word was with God (ho theos) and the Word was god” (theos).
Jesus is called “theos” because the meaning, if you look it up in a good concordance, is “any god or goddess”, describing “deities or divinities”.

Firstly, Jn. 1:1 doesn't say "πρὸς τὸν (with) θεὸς (theos), but rather "πρὸς τὸν (with) θεόν (theon).

Secondly, the definitions "a deity" and "an idol" aren't the only definitions of the Koine Greek word "θεός" (theos).

Forms of the word
Dictionary: θεός, -οῦ, -ὁ
Greek transliteration: theos
Simplified transliteration: theos

Numbers
Strong's number: 2316
GK Number: 2536

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 1317
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-2a

Gloss: God, usually refers to the one true God; in a very few contexts it refers to a (pagan) god or goddess. The Son of God as a title of Jesus emphasizes his unique relationship to the Father. The god of this age refers to the devil

Definition: a deity, Acts 7:43; 1 Cor. 8:5; an idol, Acts 7:40; God, the true God, Mt. 3:9, et al. freq.; God, possessed of true godhead, Jn. 1:1; Rom. 9:5; from the Hebrew, applied to potentates, Jn. 10:34, 35; τῶ θεῶ, an intensive term, from the Hebrew, exceedingly, Acts 7:20, and, perhaps, 2 Cor. 10:4

θεόν (theon) is the accusative form of the word for God (θεὸς/theos)

Case	Accusative (who or what the action is directly done to, e.g., "I saw him")

θεὸς (theos)

Case	Nominative (who or what is doing the action or being described)

In Jn. 1:1 we read, "Ἐν (In) ἀρχῇ (beginning) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (Word), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) λόγος (Word) ἦν (was) πρὸς τὸν (with) θεόν (God), καὶ (and) θεὸς (God) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (Word).”

Jesus never once said he was “God”…..if he had we would not be having this conversation.

Jesus did say that He's God, and in more ways than one, and His miracles testified to it as well. The following scenes are a few examples where Jesus testifies to being God in words and/or deeds, and people responding by accusing Him of "blasphemy", and attempting to kill Him for it:

Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and said, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working", and "therefore the Jews (the Judaeans, a mixture of scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees) sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God." (Jn. 5:1-18, cf. PV2)

It is there in Israel that the Promise was fulfilled. It was accomplished in Him. Jesus said, "Abraham longed to see My day, and he saw it, and rejoiced" (Jn. 8:56). It's a statement made by Jesus that suggests Abraham had a prophetic vision of the Messiah's coming. Abraham saw it, prophetically, through a grace of God, and rejoiced, unlike many of those He was speaking to who were really living it. The Judaeans responded dismissively saying, "You are not yet fifty years old and You are telling us that Abraham has seen You and You have seen him?", and this time Jesus reaffirmed that He's God and the Christ (Messiah) by having said, "before Abraham was born I am" (Jn. 8:59, cf. PV4). For Jesus to say "before Abraham was born I am" is significant because only God can say that He's eternal: God spoke to Moses, saying, l AM THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you. And God said again to Moses, thus shalt thou say to the sons of Israel, the Lord God of our fathers, the God of Abraham, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is My name for ever, and my memorial to generations of generations" (English translation from The Tanakh, Ex. 3:14-15). It was understood that Jesus said He's God, and thus they took up stones to throw at Him for blasphemy. (Jn. 8:59, cf. PV4)

The Judaeans attempted to stone Jesus for blasphemy, and told him it's because "you, being a man, make yourself God", right after He had stated that (I) He's the Son of God, (II) He and the Father are one, and (III) the Father is in Him, and that He is in the Father, and so on. (Jn. 10:22-39, cf. PV4)

After Jesus raised Lazarus of Theophilus from the dead, the members of the Sanhedrin took counsel, and the High Priest, Caiaphas, planned to sentence Jesus to death. (Jn. 11: 41-53, cf. PV5)

At Jesus's trial, the High Priest, Caiphas, asked Jesus, "Are you the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God?". Jesus reaffirmed that He's the Christ (Messiah), and the Son of God, and thus they accused Him of blasphemy, and called for His death. (Matt. 26:57-68, Lk. 22:66-71, cf. PV5)

There are other scenes show that Jesus is God as well, for example:

"[God] [...] alone treadeth upon the waves of the sea" (Jb. 9:8)
[...] they saw Jesus walking on the sea (Jn. 6:19, cf. PV1)

“Who are you looking for?” asks Jesus
They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
When therefore he said to them, “I am He,” they went backward, and fell to the ground. (Jn. 18:4-6, cf. PV5)

 

[GodsGrace]

Firstly, I actually do read the New Testament in Koine Greek.
Secondly, Jn. 1:1 doesn't say "πρὸς τὸν (with) θεὸς (theos), but rather "πρὸς τὸν (with) θεόν (theon).
Thirdly, the definitions "a deity" and "an idol" aren't the only definitions of the Koine Greek word "θεός" (theos).

Forms of the word
Dictionary: θεός, -οῦ, -ὁ
Greek transliteration: theos
Simplified transliteration: theos

Numbers
Strong's number: 2316
GK Number: 2536

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 1317
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-2a

Gloss: God, usually refers to the one true God; in a very few contexts it refers to a (pagan) god or goddess. The Son of God as a title of Jesus emphasizes his unique relationship to the Father. The god of this age refers to the devil

Definition: a deity, Acts 7:43; 1 Cor. 8:5; an idol, Acts 7:40; God, the true God, Mt. 3:9, et al. freq.; God, possessed of true godhead, Jn. 1:1; Rom. 9:5; from the Hebrew, applied to potentates, Jn. 10:34, 35; τῶ θεῶ, an intensive term, from the Hebrew, exceedingly, Acts 7:20, and, perhaps, 2 Cor. 10:4

θεόν (theon) is the accusative form of the word for God: θεὸς (theos)

Case	Accusative (who or what the action is directly done to, e.g., "I saw him")

θεὸς (theos)

Case	Nominative (who or what is doing the action or being described)

In Jn. 1:1 we read, "Ἐν (In) ἀρχῇ (beginning) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (Word), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) λόγος (Word) ἦν (was) πρὸς τὸν (with) θεόν (God), καὶ (and) θεὸς (God) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (Word).”

@Aunty Jane is a Jehovah Witness. They have their own understanding of different topics in scripture.
The New World Testament has for John 1:1 AND THE WORD WAS A GOD.
A GOD.

If you think of it, it's confirming that the word IS some kind of god/God...
and THEY are really creating 2 gods.

My other comment is regarding language. I don't read or speak Koine but I do speak 3 languages and this certainly helps in understanding the bible by reading some verses/passages in a different language.

In Italian John 1:1 ends with AND GOD WAS THE WORD....just as you've posted up above in the Koine.
This might have some ramification that escapes me...but in either case THE WORD IS GOD.
This is plain to understand.

If you can detect any difference between THE WORD WAS GOD and GOD WAS THE WORD,
I'd be happy to hear it.

 

[Magdala]

In Italian John 1:1 ends with AND GOD WAS THE WORD....just as you've posted up above in the Koine.
This might have some ramification that escapes me...but in either case THE WORD IS GOD.
This is plain to understand.

If you can detect any difference between THE WORD WAS GOD and GOD WAS THE WORD,
I'd be happy to hear it.

There's no difference between "The Word was God" and "God was the Word".

 

[CadyandZoe]

At Jesus's trial, the High Priest, Caiphas, asked Jesus if He's the Son of God, which is another way of asking if He's God, and He answered in the affirmative.

It is not true that the phrase "Son of God" indicates his deity. The phrase "son of God" indicates his position, i.e. second in authority to God.

The Pharisees responded by accusing Him of blasphemy and calling for His death

The Pharisee's accusation was based on their belief that the Messiah would be an angel or a theophany, so Paul wrote the letter to the Hebrews to defend Jesus' humanity.

The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
For this cause the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill him, because he did these things on the Sabbath.
But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (Jn. 5:1-18, cf. Potmg: V2)

We learn as much from how Jesus defended himself. Jesus never argued that he miraculously healed people on the Sabbath because he was God. Rather, he argued that he healed on the Sabbath because doing good on the Sabbath was expected of God.

"You are not yet fifty years old! Have you seen Abraham?"
Jesus answered, "[...] before Abraham came into existence, I AM"

Jesus was not identifying himself with the name of God, ie. Yahweh in this context. Instead, he defended his assertion that Abraham looked forward to the coming of Jesus because God planned to send Jesus as the means to the blessing of salvation before Abraham was born.

"I and the Father are one.”
Therefore Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?”
The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

Again, the Jews believed that the Messiah would be an angel or a theophany, not a human being. The Pharisees were incorrect to believe that a claim to be the messiah was a claim to be God.

Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’ If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken), why do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’ If I don’t do the works of my Father, don’t believe me. But if I do them, though you don’t believe me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
They sought again to seize him [...] (Jn. 10:30:39, cf. Potmg: V4)

In this instance, their motive wasn't justice but envy and murder. Jesus' popularity threatened their position as leaders of the Jewish people and they were looking for ways to kill him.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There's no difference between "The Word was God" and "God was the Word".

In context, the two sentences have different meanings.

 

[Magdala]

@Aunty Jane is a Jehovah Witness. They have their own understanding of different topics in scripture.
The New World Testament has for John 1:1 AND THE WORD WAS A GOD.
A GOD.

If you think of it, it's confirming that the word IS some kind of god/God...
and THEY are really creating 2 gods.

“the Word was a god” (Jn. 1:1, New World Translation)

Firstly, as you said, to say "was a god" implies the existence of more than one god, but there's only one God. Therefore, if Jehova's Witnesses claim to believe in only one God, and they don't believe that the Word is the one God, then they should acknowledge that the aforementioned part of Jn. 1:1 in their translation is false.

Secondly, as we both know, in Koine Greek, the langauge in which the New Testament was written, Jn. 1:1 doesn't say "the Word was a god", but rather "the Word was God".

 

[CadyandZoe]

How can a perfect divine being, God the Father, beget a Son that is of a different nature...or 'gene'...or kind to the Father? If He isn't God, then what is He? Did God establish a generational system of expanding nature... kind after their own kind... but break it Himself, yet use the same terms of reference as we would naturally understand it... Father and Son?

The answer is this. First, the word "begotten" is understood from Psalm 2, which is sung at the inauguration of the king of Israel. In that context, the term "begotten" is metaphorical since the psalm is discussing a grown man. Jesus is an anointed king of Israel, and as such, he was figuratively "begotten" the day he was anointed.

Second, The phrase "son of God" comes from 2 Samuel 7, where the David covenant is recorded. In that context, God tells David through Nathan that David's son will be a son to God and God would be his Father.

 

[Ritajanice]

Please connect the dots between this thread, my post and your reply.

Look at this as well.

◄ John 14:28 ►

​

Audio Cross Study Comm Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. New Living Translation Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am. English Standard Version You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Berean Standard Bible You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What anti-trinitarians don't realize, is that they can cite all the verses they want and say "This and that verse shows that Jesus isn't God!" and that interpretation is wrong, for the fact that John said Jesus is God:

John wrote, "the Word was God" (Jn. 1:1), and that "the Word became flesh (human) and dwelt among us" (Jn. 1:14). What name was given to the Word (God) Who became human? Jesus.

Anti-trinitarians may not understand how Jesus is God, but John said that He is, and thus it is understandable, and I and others can explan it, but many aren't allowing themselves to understand.

As you say, John says, "The word was God." But what he doesn't say is that the "word" is a person. The Greek word "logos" refers to a function of the mind and rationality, such as plan, argument, script, account, etc. How does a plan become flesh?

To understand this concept, it's helpful to remember that a "plan" is a course of action that exists only in the mind of the planner or as a written statement. In contrast, a person exists in reality as a living being. The former is subjective, while the latter is objective.

As a house designer, the idea in my head became a house when the builder constructed the house from building materials, following the design that I set forth in my building plans. One could say that my house plans (subjective) became a house (objective).

Suppose John used "logos" to indicate God's promise. In this case, the promise became a reality in Jesus. Suppose John used "logos" to mean "script", in this case, the script became reality in Jesus and his works.

The point is, that Trinitarians must assume the very idea they are defending when they assume that "logos" is a person.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sure Jesus (as human) was not omniscient, was not omnipotent as we read in -

Filipp 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Filipp 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Filipp 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Nothing new.

In that passage, Paul is not arguing that Jesus emptied himself of deity. He is arguing that Jesus emptied himself of authority, which is the sort of humility that Paul wants his readers to practice.

 

[RLT63]

In that passage, Paul is not arguing that Jesus emptied himself of deity. He is arguing that Jesus emptied himself of authority, which is the sort of humility that Paul wants his readers to practice.

How do you know that?

 

[GodsGrace]

It is not true that the phrase "Son of God" indicates his deity. The phrase "son of God" indicates his position, i.e. second in authority to God.

Could you please post support for your contention that Son of God means second in authority?
Thanks.

The Pharisee's accusation was based on their belief that the Messiah would be an angel or a theophany, so Paul wrote the letter to the Hebrews to defend Jesus' humanity.

Which theology university did you go to?
Again...
could you post what you've stated above.....that the Jews were waiting on an angel as Messiah...(or a theophany).
Thanks.

We learn as much from how Jesus defended himself. Jesus never argued that he miraculously healed people on the Sabbath because he was God. Rather, he argued that he healed on the Sabbath because doing good on the Sabbath was expected of God.

Was it lawful to heal on a Saturday or do to ANY work on a Saturday?
No.
Did Jesus obey the commandments or did He break the commandments?

How would YOU solve the dilemma of Jesus working on a Saturday (no matter the reason, He was breaking the Law).

Jesus was not identifying himself with the name of God, ie. Yahweh in this context. Instead, he defended his assertion that Abraham looked forward to the coming of Jesus because God planned to send Jesus as the means to the blessing of salvation before Abraham was born.

Huh? Could you go over that again?
Who is called I AM in the tanak?

Did Jesus say He was I AM?
What does I AM mean anyway?

Again, the Jews believed that the Messiah would be an angel or a theophany, not a human being. The Pharisees were incorrect to believe that a claim to be the messiah was a claim to be God.

Guess you know more than the Jews did !
Waiting on scripture that the Jews were waiting for an angel.

In this instance, their motive wasn't justice but envy and murder. Jesus' popularity threatened their position as leaders of the Jewish people and they were looking for ways to kill him.

OK. You're right here.
BUT
Jesus DID say I AM IN MY FATHER AND MY FATHER IS IN ME.
Jesus DID say I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

Sounds pretty profound.
Are YOU and the FATHER one??

 

[GodsGrace]

In context, the two sentences have different meanings.

Could you explain the difference between:
AND THE WORD WAS GOD
AND GOD WAS THE WORD.

Thanks.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, having taken 12 years of religion classes 5 days a week in a Catholic school, I do understand what the trinity doctrine teaches.

Well thats the first issue. A catholic school..

But I can't help but see the "son of God" many times in the scriptures whereas there is nothing in them about a "God the Son." At some point I just decided to trust the scriptures instead of the catechism.

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

​

I remember enough of the trinity doctrine (and the Bible itself) to know Jesus is the son. He is not the Father. Only the Father is God. What's so difficult about that. It's a lot easier to understand than 1+1+1=1.

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

​

I don't think Jesus was talking to himself here. He was talking to God and he called Him the only true God. Again, pretty simple stuff if we only ditch tradition and accept the scriptures for what they clearly say.

Again, If you study the word. you will see the lord God of Israel was sent by the father and his spirit (Is 48) You would see Jesus made the claim, before abraham came to be, he always existed. You would see Thomas calling him God. and jesus did not correct him..

I mean.. Study the word..

 

[GodsGrace]

As you say, John says, "The word was God." But what he doesn't say is that the "word" is a person. The Greek word "logos" refers to a function of the mind and rationality, such as plan, argument, script, account, etc. How does a plan become flesh?

To understand this concept, it's helpful to remember that a "plan" is a course of action that exists only in the mind of the planner or as a written statement. In contrast, a person exists in reality as a living being. The former is subjective, while the latter is objective.

As a house designer, the idea in my head became a house when the builder constructed the house from building materials, following the design that I set forth in my building plans. One could say that my house plans (subjective) became a house (objective).

Congrats C
You've answered your own question!

Suppose John used "logos" to indicate God's promise. In this case, the promise became a reality in Jesus. Suppose John used "logos" to mean "script", in this case, the script became reality in Jesus and his works.

The point is, that Trinitarians must assume the very idea they are defending when they assume that "logos" is a person.