Not arguing with that sister. The Lord is faithful to help us any way He has access. If the devil closes one avenue, the Lord will make most of an avenue that is not closed. And I'm not going to pit one way against the other. But we aim for the scriptures to also become part of us.....hidden away in our heart as David wrote......bible says the entrance of the word giveth light (to see/discern by). I see this as a spiritual war we are in and we want to take back ground for God that the devil has taken, so we keep moving forward and growing. A lot depends on us too, our willingness to start with, as well as our understanding and whether we love the truth more than ourselves.
Exploring Trinitarian Logic
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You forget that the Father wanted Him to die, the Lamb slain.
That was decided before God and the Son said -
Gen 1:26 - Then God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
God knew from the beginning (before creation) Jesus had to die and the Son voluntarily agreed.
John 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
Human logic.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I may get back to you on this later, at the moment my head is spinning with all the confusion, plus I’m starting to get techy..
Enjoy the rest of your day..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Actually the son is God. he was sent by the father, and the son through the father also sent the Holy Spirit.
But thanks for admitting you misunderstood what trinity doctrin teaches.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Ritajanice
Born-Again
The good thing though either way...as I don’t believe in the trinity, it doesn’t affect our salvation...
I wonder why some are so desperate to get what they believe across to others...non trinitarian and trinitarian.
I’ve even heard that some trinitarians don’t believe that you can be Born Again and saved, if you don’t believe that Jesus is God...it’s sad that they have been deceived by the enemy to believe that...
I’ve also asked a trinitarian questions on here...they were completely evaded...at least if I don’t understand, I will say...why lie and make out you understand when it’s pretty obvious they don’t...as the questions are never answered...that’s how I can’t take what they believe seriously, they can’t answer what I call simple spiritual questions,imo.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
In full context.
Genesis 1
King James Version
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Magdala
Active Member
I never said that I wouldn't answer your questions, and I never said that I didn't understand them. If you want to say that I'm evading because I can't answer so that you feel like you "won" then you're going to do that, regardless of what I say. I haven't answered them because I'd like us to finish discussing the following first:
The one God is triune: the Thought, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, yet are one because They are the same Essence: love:
"God said, 'Let Us make man according to Our Image, and after Our Likeness'". God was speaking in the first-person plural which He wouldn't have done if He didn't exist as a plurality within a unity.
Human sight or any other human sense never saw God before He as the Word became incarnate and cannot physically see the other two parts of God: the Father and the Holy Spirit, but sees Them in the works which were or are carried out by Them:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (Jn. 1:1). "The Word flesh became, and dwelt among us" (Jn. 1:14). What name was given to the Word (God) when He became human? "Jesus". Also, the angel, Gabriel, called Jesus "Emmanuel" which means "God with us".
The Word is the part of God that became human so as to die, and He was named Jesus, and thus God did die and resurrect, while His other two parts: the Father (the Thought) and the Holy Spirit remained and operated and operate invisibly and incorporeally.
I and others can explain it to you, BUT I think that explanation would be understood much easier if you first accept the following:
"the Word was God" (Jn. 1:1).
"the Word became flesh (human) and dwelt among us" (Jn. 1:14)
Two self-explanatory statements where John explicitly said that the part of God that became human is the Word. When the Word became human what was He named? Jesus! Unless you accept that Jesus is the Word (God) Incarnate, you're allowing your current confusion over "How could the the Son (the Word) be God when...blah blah blah, and thus the Son couldn't be God" to serve as a blockage.
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Wrong.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Creation was a cooperation from God the Father and God the Son.
So I repeat -
Gen 1:26 - Then God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Here is another very interesting commentary..he agrees the same as me about Jesus not knowing the time or hour of his return...therefore can’t possibly be fully God..
Plus the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit, that God is our Father, Jesus is not my Spirit Father, he’s my spirit Brother....also , The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods Children .....we are not Jesus Children.....
There are two other times the Johannine Jesus identified the Father as the only God. Earlier, he told his Jewish opponents that the Father is “the one and only God” (John 5.44). And again, at the Last Supper, Jesus distinguished himself from this one and only God by commanding his disciples, “believe in God, believe also in Me” (14.1).
Many traditionalist scholars cite this passage to support that Jesus preexisted, thus concluding that he was God. Yet in doing so, they often ignore its double declaration that there is only one God, who is the Father. Even if Jesus did preexist, this does not prove that he was God. Second Temple Judaism regarded that some righteous men preexisted, and Jews did not conclude that such preexistence indicated that they actually were God/gods.
The third irrefutable NT text which establishes that there is God, who is the Father, and distinguishes Jesus from God is in Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. He writes, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all” (Eph 4.4-6). Here, Paul implicitly identifies Jesus Christ as “one Lord” and distinguishes him from the “one God,” whom he unequivocally identifies as “the Father.” Paul is a unique author of NT literature in that he exclusively and consistently calls Jesus “Lord” and the Father “God.” Therefore, he never calls Jesus “God.”
So, these three NT passages—John 17.3; 1 Corinthians 8.4, 6; and Ephesians 4.4-6—establish without any doubt that only the Father is God, so that Jesus cannot be God.
Many Christians have been confused by this saying, thinking that Jesus implies that he himself is not good. Yet the NT often declares that Jesus was such a righteous man that he never sinned (Acts 3.14; 2 Corinthians 5.21; Hebrews 4.15; 7.26; 2 Peter 2.22).
Then what did Jesus mean when he said, “no one is good but God alone”? In the OT, Judaism, and especially Hellenistic theism, only the one God was considered “good” in an absolute sense. This must be what Jesus meant in this encounter. Humans were called “good” only in a derived sense, with God being recognized as the Source of goodness.
Many NT passages show that Jesus was not God. For instance, the NT often declares that God sent Jesus, God was with Jesus in his mission, and God raised him from the dead. Peter preached about “Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst” (Acts 2.22). Peter later proclaimed about “Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him” (10.38).
In the salutations of all ten of Paul’s NT letters he identifies God as the Father, distinguishes God from Jesus Christ, and he never mentions the Holy Spirit. He typically writes, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” This evidence further affirms that only the Father is God and that Jesus is not God.
Moreover, the Bible contains several verses which state unambiguously that Jesus had a God, and most say his God was the Father. When Jesus hung upon the cross he quoted Psalm 22.1, crying out to the Father, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME” (Matthew 27.46/Mark 15.34). The day Jesus was resurrected, he said to Mary Magdalene, “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God” (John 20.17). And three times the Apostle Paul writes about “the God and Father of our/the Lord Jesus (Christ)” (Romans 15.6; 2 Corinthians 1.3; 11.31; cf. Ephesians 1.17). Finally, the heavenly Jesus is quoted five times saying “My God” (Revelation 3.2, 12; cf. 1.6).
This article by Kermit Zarley is an excerpt/condensation from his book The Restitution of Jesus Christ (2008).
The Verse that Made Me Think
The one verse that caused this author to first question whether Jesus is God is Jesus’ saying in his Olivet Discourse about the time of his return. He said, “But of that day and/or hour no one knows, not even the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24.36/Mark 13.32). Since Jesus did not know the time of his return he could not have been God, for he reveals that God the Father did know it. Orthodox Christian theology has always insisted that God is omniscient, knowing everything, including everything about the future. Accordingly, Jesus could not have been GodPlus the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit, that God is our Father, Jesus is not my Spirit Father, he’s my spirit Brother....also , The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods Children .....we are not Jesus Children.....
Jesus Is Not God – Bible Verses
Kermit Zarley
Most Christians believe that Jesus was and is God. That is what the institutional church has taught. Christians professedly rely strongly on the Bible for this belief. Yet there is not a single verse in the Bible which states unequivocally, “Jesus is God,” or the like. Moreover, the New Testament (NT) gospels have no statement by Jesus in which he identifies himself as God. In fact, there are many Bible verses which indicate that Jesus cannot be God by declaring that only the Father is God or by distinguishing Jesus from God. Three irrefutable texts in the NT declare both of these points.Jesus Himself Teaches that Only the Father is God
First, and foremost, is one of Jesus’ sayings recorded only in the Gospel of John. The setting is the Last Supper, right before he was arrested and crucified. He prayed for his disciples, saying, “Father,… This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17.3). So, Jesus says of the Father that he is “the only true God” and then distinguishes himself from that one God. Both of these points clearly indicate that Jesus himself cannot also be God.There are two other times the Johannine Jesus identified the Father as the only God. Earlier, he told his Jewish opponents that the Father is “the one and only God” (John 5.44). And again, at the Last Supper, Jesus distinguished himself from this one and only God by commanding his disciples, “believe in God, believe also in Me” (14.1).
Paul Teaches that Only the Father is God
The other two NT passages which irrefutably establish that only the Father is God and distinguish Jesus from God are in Paul’s letters. He writes to the church at Corinth, “There is no God but one…. yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him” (1 Corinthians 8.4, 6). Here, Paul clearly declares that for Christians there is one God, who is the Father, and there is no other God, so that Jesus is not God.Many traditionalist scholars cite this passage to support that Jesus preexisted, thus concluding that he was God. Yet in doing so, they often ignore its double declaration that there is only one God, who is the Father. Even if Jesus did preexist, this does not prove that he was God. Second Temple Judaism regarded that some righteous men preexisted, and Jews did not conclude that such preexistence indicated that they actually were God/gods.
The third irrefutable NT text which establishes that there is God, who is the Father, and distinguishes Jesus from God is in Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. He writes, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all” (Eph 4.4-6). Here, Paul implicitly identifies Jesus Christ as “one Lord” and distinguishes him from the “one God,” whom he unequivocally identifies as “the Father.” Paul is a unique author of NT literature in that he exclusively and consistently calls Jesus “Lord” and the Father “God.” Therefore, he never calls Jesus “God.”
So, these three NT passages—John 17.3; 1 Corinthians 8.4, 6; and Ephesians 4.4-6—establish without any doubt that only the Father is God, so that Jesus cannot be God.
Other Witnesses That Only the Father is God
One of many other NT passages which confirm that Jesus is not God is his encounter with the rich young ruler. This man sincerely asked Jesus, “‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone’” (Mark 10.17-18/Luke 18.18-19; cf. Matthew 19.16-17).Many Christians have been confused by this saying, thinking that Jesus implies that he himself is not good. Yet the NT often declares that Jesus was such a righteous man that he never sinned (Acts 3.14; 2 Corinthians 5.21; Hebrews 4.15; 7.26; 2 Peter 2.22).
Then what did Jesus mean when he said, “no one is good but God alone”? In the OT, Judaism, and especially Hellenistic theism, only the one God was considered “good” in an absolute sense. This must be what Jesus meant in this encounter. Humans were called “good” only in a derived sense, with God being recognized as the Source of goodness.
Many NT passages show that Jesus was not God. For instance, the NT often declares that God sent Jesus, God was with Jesus in his mission, and God raised him from the dead. Peter preached about “Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst” (Acts 2.22). Peter later proclaimed about “Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him” (10.38).
In the salutations of all ten of Paul’s NT letters he identifies God as the Father, distinguishes God from Jesus Christ, and he never mentions the Holy Spirit. He typically writes, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” This evidence further affirms that only the Father is God and that Jesus is not God.
Moreover, the Bible contains several verses which state unambiguously that Jesus had a God, and most say his God was the Father. When Jesus hung upon the cross he quoted Psalm 22.1, crying out to the Father, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME” (Matthew 27.46/Mark 15.34). The day Jesus was resurrected, he said to Mary Magdalene, “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God” (John 20.17). And three times the Apostle Paul writes about “the God and Father of our/the Lord Jesus (Christ)” (Romans 15.6; 2 Corinthians 1.3; 11.31; cf. Ephesians 1.17). Finally, the heavenly Jesus is quoted five times saying “My God” (Revelation 3.2, 12; cf. 1.6).
The Verse that Made Me Think
The one verse that caused this author to first question whether Jesus is God is Jesus’ saying in his Olivet Discourse about the time of his return. He said, “But of that day and/or hour no one knows, not even the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24.36/Mark 13.32). Since Jesus did not know the time of his return he could not have been God, for he reveals that God the Father did know it. Orthodox Christian theology has always insisted that God is omniscient, knowing everything, including everything about the future. Accordingly, Jesus could not have been God.This article by Kermit Zarley is an excerpt/condensation from his book The Restitution of Jesus Christ (2008).
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
Then there is this.....there is no way that you can explain this away.....I believe I’m nearly sold on not believing in the trinity...
God knows everything..we see here Jesus does not I’m afraid....therefore he couldn’t possibly be fully God....
The Verse that Made Me Think
The one verse that caused this author to first question whether Jesus is God is Jesus’ saying in his Olivet Discourse about the time of his return. He said, “But of that day and/or hour no one knows, not even the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24.36/Mark 13.32). Since Jesus did not know the time of his return he could not have been God, for he reveals that God the Father did know it. Orthodox Christian theology has always insisted that God is omniscient, knowing everything, including everything about the future. Accordingly, Jesus could not have been God
Magdala
Active Member
Again, I and others can explain that to you as well, BUT I think that explanation would be understood much easier if you first accept the following:
"the Word was God" (Jn. 1:1).
"the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (Jn. 1:14)
Two self-explanatory statements where John explicitly said that the part of God that became human is the Word. When the Word became human what was He named? Jesus! Unless you accept that Jesus is the Word (God) Incarnate, you're allowing your current confusion over "How could the the Son (the Word) be God when...blah blah blah, and thus the Son couldn't be God" to serve as a blockage. How can you possibly begin to understand and accept the explanations for HOW Jesus operates as God when you refuse to accept His own apostle saying that He is God?
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
This is also interesting from another persons commentary @Wrangler .
Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is Not God The Creator
1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.
2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.
3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.
4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”
5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.
6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.
7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.
8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”
9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.
10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”
11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)
12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.
13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See
James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”
14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation
Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is Not God The Creator
1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.
2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.
3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.
4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”
5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.
6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.
7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.
8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”
9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.
10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”
11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)
12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.
13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See
James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”
14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation
LuxMundi.....you could explain away all you want to.
Those that believe as some do on here will never even consider what you're saying.
They're too busy listening to the Holy Spirit, who, apparently, tells each one of us something different...
or reading some author about this very topic, and mostly those that shed doubt and confusion on Christianity...
or they just have their own agenda to promote.
I'm sure another doubt would follow....
and then another, and another ad infinitum.
Of course we know that while Jesus was on earth He was limited in His knowledge.
Philippians 2:7 states that Jesus emptied Himself.
But of what?
Not of the God "element".
One is either God or He is not.
He emptied Himself of some attributes that only God IN HEAVEN could have...
for instance OMNISCIENCE...which is what would have allowed Him to know AT THAT INSTANT,,,WHEN He would return.
Jesus was limited in knowledge.
These are doctrine that could be learned by those that wish to learn.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Well, having taken 12 years of religion classes 5 days a week in a Catholic school, I do understand what the trinity doctrine teaches. But I can't help but see the "son of God" many times in the scriptures whereas there is nothing in them about a "God the Son." At some point I just decided to trust the scriptures instead of the catechism.
1Cor 8:6,
But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
I remember enough of the trinity doctrine (and the Bible itself) to know Jesus is the son. He is not the Father. Only the Father is God. What's so difficult about that. It's a lot easier to understand than 1+1+1=1.John 17:3,
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I don't think Jesus was talking to himself here. He was talking to God and he called Him the only true God. Again, pretty simple stuff if we only ditch tradition and accept the scriptures for what they clearly say.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
Commentary..
The Holy Spirit reveals to us the deep things of God which are hidden from and are foolishness to the natural man.
We read in 1 Corinthians 2:9-13,This passage, of course, refers primarily to the Apostles, but we cannot limit this work of the Spirit to them. The Spirit reveals to the individual believer the deep things of God, things which human eye has not seen, nor ear heard, things which have not entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those that love him. It is evident from the context that this does not refer solely to heaven, or the things to come in the life hereafter. The Holy Spirit takes the deep things of God which God has prepared for us, even in the life that now is, and reveals them to us.
The Holy Spirit interprets his own revelation. He imparts power to discern, know and appreciate what he has taught.
In the next verse to those just quoted we read, “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned”(1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV). Not only is the Holy Spirit the Author of revelation,He is also the Interpreter of what he has revealed
Magdala
Active Member
Yea, I remind myself from time to time that not even God in the flesh convinced those that He was God. That's no different over two-thousand years later, but only God knows who will and who won't ever accept it, we don't.
Sure Jesus (as human) was not omniscient, was not omnipotent as we read in -
Filipp 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Filipp 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Filipp 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Nothing new.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Logic to the rescue.
I probably explained this before, the proper way to assess propositions with equal evidence or equally no evidence in support. Because it is logical, this approach is used in statistics and law. It is called HYPOTHESIS TESTING; the null hypothesis and its counterpart, the alternative hypothesis.
The foundation is the one making the positive claim has the burden of proof. The prosecutor claims the defendant is guilty. By default, one presumes this positive claim is untrue, i.e., presumption of innocence.
H0. The defendant is guilty.
Ha. The defendant is NOT guilty.
H0. The new products is better than the old.
Ha. The new products is NOT better than the old.
H0. The son of God said something in Genesis 1.
Ha. The son of God did NOT say something in Genesis 1.
In the case where there is insufficient evidence to support H0, one must accept Ha. Of course, trinitarians wanting to play word games and switch the burden of proof, try to word H0, the positive claim in the negative, but this amounts to a double negative, i.e., The son of God did NOT (not say) something in Genesis 1.
In short, trinitarians make up things to support their IDOL. They start with it as being true and then back door rationalize everything else to fit it, e.g., definitions, logic, language usage, explicit doctrine. It really is the most common form of IDOLATRY in human history.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
You never answered the question....if Jesus was God, then he would 100% know the hour, day and time of his return...he does not...therefore he couldn’t possibly be God....that is my belief so far....sorry...I’m going by the word...not man’s / woman’s understanding of scripture.
The Holy Spirit is Gods Living Witness...he testifies Of God the Father and he testifies Of Jesus the Son to our spirit/ heart.....sorry that you don’t understand that...I do....we believe differently..on the subject of the trinity...
Jesus not knowing the time and hour of his return, has sold me...I guess I am now a non trinitarian....sorry that it upsets you....I can’t see any further discussion to be honest....I’m sold on that fact, plus it’s very much Biblical.....bye....
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