Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False

[Douggg]

Not logical nor scriptural. It is Dougggural.

The great tribulation IS the tribulation of those days............PERIOD.

You are making an emotional statement, not a scriptural based argument.

You have not shown scriptural support of how long the great tribulation is.

You have not made an argument of when the 7th vial of God's wrath takes place.

You have not make an argument of what is meant when the seventh angel says "It is done." when he pours out his vial.

This is just something that you have made up. Here's what happens at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


AND THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

NOT 45 DAYS LATER. You decided that.................the scripture didn't say that.

In Matthew 24:30 the words "and then" indicate an action before then.

first action - the heavens are shaken, Matthew 24:29

second action - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: Matthew 24:30a

third action - and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30b

There will be 45 days between the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven and Jesus coming with power and great glory.

During the 45 days, the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army. Near the end of the 45 days, the 7th angel pours out his vial of God's wrath, as the great tribulation comes to close.

 

[The Light]

You are making an emotional statement, not a scriptural based argument.

You have not shown scriptural support of how long the great tribulation is.

I did not attempt to show how long the great tribulation is. I showed you USING SCRIPTURE that the Great Tribulation is the tribulation of those days.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Why you attempt to deny that the Great Tribulation is the tribulation of those days is beyond my ability to comprehend. It's right there in scripture.

You have not made an argument of when the 7th vial of God's wrath takes place.

Sure I did. And yet you were unable to understand because you are locked into what you have beaten together with a sledgehammer. You read right past the scriptural evidence.

I showed you that Armageddon has to take place before the 7th trumpet because the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord when the 7th trumpet sounds. That means the millennial kingdom has to be set up at the 7th trumpet. Since Armageddon happens here..........................

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

..................Because of this information, we know that the vials happen in the same timeframe as the trumpets........during the 7th seal. Simple logic.

You have not make an argument of what is meant when the seventh angel says "It is done." when he pours out his vial.

He is certainly not talking about the Great Tribulation as you claim. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Hence we have a great multitude in Revelation 7 after the 6th seal.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And some of this great multitude comes out of great tribulation.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

As to what is over when the 7th vial is poured out that's simple.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I guess you also failed to notice that the lightning and voices and thunderings and an earth quake and great hail at the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11 is the exact same thing that you see at the 7th vial in Revelation 16

Revelation 11
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 16
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

In Matthew 24:30 the words "and then" indicate an action before then.

first action - the heavens are shaken, Matthew 24:29

You conveniently left out

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Which occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

second action - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: Matthew 24:30a

6th seal.

third action - and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30b

ALL HAPPENS AT THE 6TH SEAL.

It is you and your sledgehammer that wants to beat this clear over to the end of wrath, but it happens at the end of the great tribulation, at the 6th seal.................... JUST AS THE WORD SAYS.

There will be 45 days between the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven and Jesus coming with power and great glory.

Impossible. The 7th seal wrath of God is ONE YEAR LONG. 150 days of that occurs at the 5th trumpet.

During the 45 days, the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army. Near the end of the 45 days, the 7th angel pours out his vial of God's wrath, as the great tribulation comes to close.

Put the sledge away. The 6th seal is opened IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of the those days which is the Great Tribulation according to the Word of God. Then the 7th seal is opened which is the wrath of God which contains both the trumpet and vials. The millennial kingdom is set up at the 7th trumpet.

 

[Douggg]

I did not attempt to show how long the great tribulation is.

Why are you not able to use scriptures to show how long the great tribulation will be? Jesus said what would begin the great tribulation in Matthew 24:15.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

So why are you not going to the Book of Daniel and reading about the abomination of desolation ?

Sure I did. And yet you were unable to understand because you are locked into what you have beaten together with a sledgehammer. You read right past the scriptural evidence.

I showed you that Armageddon has to take place before the 7th trumpet because the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord when the 7th trumpet sounds. That means the millennial kingdom has to be set up at the 7th trumpet. Since Armageddon happens here..........................

You did not address when the 7th vial of God's wrath is poured out.

In Revelation 16, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon - and then after the gathering of their armies, the 7th vial of God's wrath is poured out.

Armageddon is not mentioned in Revelation 11. Why not ? Because the 7th angel sounding his trumpet signifies what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be.... Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing his time is short, a time, times, half time.

And that act of Satan cast down to this earth, begins the taking away of the kingdoms of the earth away from Satan's influence over them - so that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of God and His Christ.

He is certainly not talking about the Great Tribulation as you claim. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Hence we have a great multitude in Revelation 7 after the 6th seal.

Revelation 7 is not a continuation of Revelation 6. Revelation 7 begins with a new vision John sees.

Impossible. The 7th seal wrath of God is ONE YEAR LONG. 150 days of that occurs at the 5th trumpet.

The 7th seal does not introduce the vials of God's wrath, but the trumpet plagues instead.

Revelation 8:
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

The 6th seal is opened IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of the those days which is the Great Tribulation according to the Word of God

No-one is arguing that.

The disagreement is over how much time passes from when the 6th seal is opened and the day that Jesus descends down to earth to stand on the Mt. Olives. And what takes place in that time interval.

You make no time provision for the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army.

I am saying 45 days based on Daniel 12:11-12. Which you have not even looked at to know how long the tribulation of those days, and the great tribulation will be.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Douggg. I wonder, why do you make things up. Do you not believe the Word of God that says...........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..........which is the great tribulation as it says in Matthew 24:21.

How can you possibly ever understand scripture when you take a sledgehammer and beat things into place.​

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Douggg. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal as the Word of God says.................IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation.

So what would happen if you just read the Word of God and put things where God says they go.

You would see that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the 7th seal wrath of God will begin.


Again, why the sledge??????????????

Douggg. I wonder, why do you make things up. Do you not believe the Word of God that says...........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..........which is the great tribulation as it says in Matthew 24:21.

How can you possibly ever understand scripture when you take a sledgehammer and beat things into place.​

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Douggg. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal as the Word of God says.................IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation.

So what would happen if you just read the Word of God and put things where God says they go.

You would see that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the 7th seal wrath of God will begin.


Again, why the sledge??????????????

Evidently you have Jesus returning in power and great glory before the white horses second coming.

Jesus did not use the word "wrath" because the entire 7 yr period is the great tribulation.
The great tribulation period ends in a period of wrath.

How do we know this?
Because Daniel did not separate the last week.

But beyond that, You cut verse 30 short because at the end of verse 30. It says after the tribulation, he comes in power and great glory,which is revelation19,the white horses coming ,to destroy the Antichrist and false profit and their army..
So you can't have it both ways. You cannot say there are 2 second comings in power and great glory.

Do a study on tribulation and wrath.
They overlap.
God brings disobedient into both tribulation and wrath
Your entire deal hinges on Jesus wording of trib and great trib, not realizing the second coming in power and great glory is Immediately after wrath.
( the last part of the GT).

Therefore you have manufactured 2 comings in great power and glory.


Note you Left out the wording of vs 30 that says power and great glory

 

[rebuilder 454]

I did not attempt to show how long the great tribulation is. I showed you USING SCRIPTURE that the Great Tribulation is the tribulation of those days.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Why you attempt to deny that the Great Tribulation is the tribulation of those days is beyond my ability to comprehend. It's right there in scripture.


Sure I did. And yet you were unable to understand because you are locked into what you have beaten together with a sledgehammer. You read right past the scriptural evidence.

I showed you that Armageddon has to take place before the 7th trumpet because the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord when the 7th trumpet sounds. That means the millennial kingdom has to be set up at the 7th trumpet. Since Armageddon happens here..........................

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

..................Because of this information, we know that the vials happen in the same timeframe as the trumpets........during the 7th seal. Simple logic.

He is certainly not talking about the Great Tribulation as you claim. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Hence we have a great multitude in Revelation 7 after the 6th seal.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And some of this great multitude comes out of great tribulation.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

As to what is over when the 7th vial is poured out that's simple.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I guess you also failed to notice that the lightning and voices and thunderings and an earth quake and great hail at the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11 is the exact same thing that you see at the 7th vial in Revelation 16

Revelation 11
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 16
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


You conveniently left out

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Which occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

6th seal.


ALL HAPPENS AT THE 6TH SEAL.

It is you and your sledgehammer that wants to beat this clear over to the end of wrath, but it happens at the end of the great tribulation, at the 6th seal.................... JUST AS THE WORD SAYS.




Impossible. The 7th seal wrath of God is ONE YEAR LONG. 150 days of that occurs at the 5th trumpet.



Put the sledge away. The 6th seal is opened IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of the those days which is the Great Tribulation according to the Word of God. Then the 7th seal is opened which is the wrath of God which contains both the trumpet and vials. The millennial kingdom is set up at the 7th trumpet.

1) include power and great glory of mat 24:30
2) Jesus returns after the WRATH in power and great glory.
3) the return after the wrath is on white Horses and is in power and great glory. With a warrior king destroying the antichrist and the false prophet ,and their army.

So you have mat 24 :29-30 misinterpreted to fit what would be a " mid trib" coming on white horses of the 7 yr great trib.

The last part of vs 30 ("power and great glory) can ONLY BE a post wrath statement by Jesus.( or as properly put, "after the 7 yr gt")

 

[rebuilder 454]

Douggg. I wonder, why do you make things up. Do you not believe the Word of God that says...........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..........which is the great tribulation as it says in Matthew 24:21.

How can you possibly ever understand scripture when you take a sledgehammer and beat things into place.​

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Douggg. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal as the Word of God says.................IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation.

So what would happen if you just read the Word of God and put things where God says they go.

You would see that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the 7th seal wrath of God will begin.


Again, why the sledge??????????????

You quoted vs 21 of mat 24.

We know it is a 7 yr package because of vs 21.

It is not "Great tribulation, such as the world, has never seen and never will be seen", and then all of a sudden, "a tribulation equal to or surpassing it" ( as you suggest), happens in what you are calling "the wrath", which I also call "the wrath." Or the second part of the gt which is wrath.

 

[The Light]

Why are you not able to use scriptures to show how long the great tribulation will be?

Because we do not know how long the great tribulation will be. First off, we don't know if the great tribulation will begin in the exact middle point of the week. We only know that it will begin in the midst of the week. Secondly the great tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect. Do we know how many days that the great tribulation is cut short? No. Therefore, we cannot determine the length of the great tribulation.

We can determine the length of the wrath of God..........it is one year.

Jesus said what would begin the great tribulation in Matthew 24:15.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

So why are you not going to the Book of Daniel and reading about the abomination of desolation ?

No the question is, why do you think you can determine the length of the great tribulation if you don't know the starting date and you don't know how many days the great tribulation is cut short.

You did not address when the 7th vial of God's wrath is poured out.

Again, you are just unable to understand.

If Christ sets up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet we know that the 7th vial will have to be poured out at that time.

In Revelation 16, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon - and then after the gathering of their armies, the 7th vial of God's wrath is poured out.

Exactly. And the 7th trumpet will sound in this timeframe.

Armageddon is not mentioned in Revelation 11. Why not ?

The real question is, if the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, how do you not understand that Armageddon is already over?

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And if the mystery of God is finished when the 7th angel sounds, why do you want to continue the wrath of God?

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Because the 7th angel sounding his trumpet signifies what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be.... Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing his time is short, a time, times, half time.

You can't possibly think that there is a time, times and half a time remaining after the 7th trumpet sounds?

And that act of Satan cast down to this earth, begins the taking away of the kingdoms of the earth away from Satan's influence over them - so that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of God and His Christ.

If the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, Armageddon is over.

Both the trumpet and vials occur in the 7th seal wrath of God. They are two different visions of the same frame.

Revelation 7 is not a continuation of Revelation 6. Revelation 7 begins with a new vision John sees.

Right. And if you understood Revelation 14 you would understand that the sealing of the 144,000 has to take place before the 5th seal which is the great tribulation.

Here is the great tribulation in Revelation 14 which is the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the coming of Jesus for the harvest which is the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The 7th seal does not introduce the vials of God's wrath, but the trumpet plagues instead.

Revelation 8:
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

The 7 vials are just a different vision of the same timeframe as the 7 trumpets.

What happens before the 7 trumpets? Wrath is about to begin.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What happens before the 7 vials? Wrath is about to begins.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

No-one is arguing that.

The disagreement is over how much time passes from when the 6th seal is opened and the day that Jesus descends down to earth to stand on the Mt. Olives. And what takes place in that time interval.

At the 6th seal.........the tribulation is over. Jesus comes and sends His angels for a harvest prior to the wrath of God. After the harvest we see a great multitude in heaven some that came out of great tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

You see the same thing in Revelation 14. You see the great tribulation prior to the coming of Jesus.

Revelation 14
Great tribulation
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The coming of Jesus
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

You make no time provision for the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army.

That's an unknown. All we know is the 7th seal wrath of God.............Day of the Lord...........Day of Vengeance.............is one year long.

I am saying 45 days based on Daniel 12:11-12. Which you have not even looked at to know how long the tribulation of those days, and the great tribulation will be.

Daniel 11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

This is not telling you how long the great tribulation is. We do not know that number. This is telling you how much time there is from the AOD until the mystery of God is finished. Those that are waiting until 1335 days are likely waiting for this event.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[The Light]

1) include power and great glory of mat 24:30

Ok.

2) Jesus returns after the WRATH in power and great glory.

Great. He also returns at the 6th seal in power and glory.............that we know for a fact as we have the signs of the sun, moon and stars to show us that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest.

3) the return after the wrath is on white Horses and is in power and great glory. With a warrior king destroying the antichrist and the false prophet ,and their army.

Great. Don't forget that He comes at the 6th seal as proven by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

So you have mat 24 :29-30 misinterpreted to fit what would be a " mid trib" coming on white horses of the 7 yr great trib.

No. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

I have no clue why you are unable so see that the signs of the sun, moon and stars of Matthew 24 occur at the 6th seal. It's right there in the scripture.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest immediately after the tribulation and then the 7th seal, Day of the Lord, Wrath of God begins.

The last part of vs 30 ("power and great glory) can ONLY BE a post wrath statement by Jesus.( or as properly put, "after the 7 yr gt")

So you are saying that if lightning from east to west came and we saw Jesus in the clouds with His angels being sent to gather the elect from the earth which is a harvest before wrath................that it WOULDN'T be in power and glory.

Wow. I think anytime Jesus shows up with his angels that it would be in power and glory and the the kings of the earth would beg the rocks of the earth to fall on them and hide them.

 

[The Light]

You quoted vs 21 of mat 24.

We know it is a 7 yr package because of vs 21.

Ok. There are 7 years from the time that a covenant is made with many that the Antichrist will confirm when He comes to power.

It is not "Great tribulation, such as the world, has never seen and never will be seen", and then all of a sudden, "a tribulation equal to or surpassing it" ( as you suggest), happens in what you are calling "the wrath", which I also call "the wrath." Or the second part of the gt which is wrath.

The great tribulation is time that the dragon goes after believers to kill those that do not accept the mark.

The Day of the Lord..........wrath of God............is the time that God punishes the world for their disobedience and unbelief.

Do you think these are the same thing?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ok.


Great. He also returns at the 6th seal in power and glory.............that we know for a fact as we have the signs of the sun, moon and stars to show us that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest.


Great. Don't forget that He comes at the 6th seal as proven by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.


No. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

I have no clue why you are unable so see that the signs of the sun, moon and stars of Matthew 24 occur at the 6th seal. It's right there in the scripture.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest immediately after the tribulation and then the 7th seal, Day of the Lord, Wrath of God begins.

So you are saying that if lightning from east to west came and we saw Jesus in the clouds with His angels being sent to gather the elect from the earth which is a harvest before wrath................that it WOULDN'T be in power and glory.

Wow. I think anytime Jesus shows up with his angels that it would be in power and glory and the the kings of the earth would beg the rocks of the earth to fall on them and hide them.

1) All rapture verses of the church are peacetime normal life , commerce , and everyday life.
2) the rapture of the Jewish main harvest(nothing remotely to do with the church) is DURING THE TRIB.
That harvest has zero to do with power and great glory...zero.
It is VIVIDLY depicted in Rev 14:14.

The ONLY return in power and great glory is Rev. 19
That return is post wrath.

The facts have to remain.
Gather the facts, do a study on wrath vs trib, and understand Jesus is Pointing to the second coming in "after the trib."

Angels gather BELIEVERS IN HEAVEN to assemble on white horses.
It says angels gather in heaven.
The only place someone could try and ascribe a rapture is the main pretrib rapture because the saints decend at the pretrib rapture to recieve their bodies from the grave.

But no...that does not fit because....again ....the ONLY place Jesus returns In power end, great glory is at the second coming on white horses, which is after the tribulation. After the wrath and after everything is done.
(Which is post wrath, post 7 yr gt with white horses)

 

[Douggg]

Because we do not know how long the great tribulation will be. First off, we don't know if the great tribulation will begin in the exact middle point of the week. We only know that it will begin in the midst of the week. Secondly the great tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect. Do we know how many days that the great tribulation is cut short? No. Therefore, we cannot determine the length of the great tribulation.

So, in your opinion, Daniel was told the 1290 days and the 1335th day in Daniel 12:11-12 for nothing ?

No the question is, why do you think you can determine the length of the great tribulation if you don't know the starting date and you don't know how many days the great tribulation is cut short.

No-one knows the start calendar date, nor the calendar year.

The great tribulation will be cut short of all flesh on earth ending.

That's an unknown. All we know is the 7th seal wrath of God.............Day of the Lord...........Day of Vengeance.............is one year long.

But you make zero days provision for the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army.

The sixth seal event, the appearance of Jesus sickle in hand, is what sends terror into the kings of the earth that they out of self survival are driven to assemble their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army.

Daniel 11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

This is not telling you how long the great tribulation is. We do not know that number. This is telling you how much time there is from the AOD until the mystery of God is finished. Those that are waiting until 1335 days are likely waiting for this event.

On my chart, at the end of the 1335 days - "blessed" to reign and rule with Jesus. In verse 12 above, what do you think they are waiting for ? They are waiting for Jesus's return, because they will know that Jesus returns 1335 days after the abomination of desolation is set up.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ok.


Great. He also returns at the 6th seal in power and glory.............that we know for a fact as we have the signs of the sun, moon and stars to show us that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest.


Great. Don't forget that He comes at the 6th seal as proven by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.


No. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

I have no clue why you are unable so see that the signs of the sun, moon and stars of Matthew 24 occur at the 6th seal. It's right there in the scripture.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest immediately after the tribulation and then the 7th seal, Day of the Lord, Wrath of God begins.

So you are saying that if lightning from east to west came and we saw Jesus in the clouds with His angels being sent to gather the elect from the earth which is a harvest before wrath................that it WOULDN'T be in power and glory.

Wow. I think anytime Jesus shows up with his angels that it would be in power and glory and the the kings of the earth would beg the rocks of the earth to fall on them and hide them.

None of Rev 6, and 7 passes ANY chronology test.
The Jews are sealed and locusts are released AFTER your Rev 6 verses.

Those items are happening early on in the trib.

You are placing chronology where it does not fit.

 

[The Light]

Evidently you have Jesus returning in power and great glory before the white horses second coming.

Actually, contrary to popular belief, the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord...........occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the wrath of God begins.

Jesus did not use the word "wrath" because the entire 7 yr period is the great tribulation.
The great tribulation period ends in a period of wrath.

There is no 7 year great tribulation. There is a 7 year period from the time that the covenant with many is made .

How could your contention be correct if the great tribulation begins AFTER the abomination of desolation is set up, and the AOD is not set up until the midst of the week?

How do we know this?
Because Daniel did not separate the last week.

There is a final week to go from the time that the covenant with many is made.

But beyond that, You cut verse 30 short because at the end of verse 30. It says after the tribulation, he comes in power and great glory,which is revelation19,the white horses coming ,to destroy the Antichrist and false profit and their army..
So you can't have it both ways. You cannot say there are 2 second comings in power and great glory.

So your saying when Jesus shows up at the 6th seal with Him angels to gather the elect that He won't be in power and glory?

There are no white horses seen in Matthew 24. There are angels sent to gather the elect. Does this sound like Armageddon? Additionally, there are no signs of the sun, moon and stars seen in Revelation 19. They are seen in Revelation 6.

None of the evidence supports this erroneous conclusion that has been passed around from past times when the books were sealed.

Do a study on tribulation and wrath.
They overlap.
God brings disobedient into both tribulation and wrath

The Great Tribulation is brought by Satan against the believers that do not take the mark.

The wrath of God is brought by God against unbelievers that have done wickedly.

Do you think these are the same???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Again, do you think the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God are the same thing?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Your entire deal hinges on Jesus wording of trib and great trib, not realizing the second coming in power and great glory is Immediately after wrath.
( the last part of the GT).

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal according to the Word of God. Jesus comes for a harvest of believers before He unleashed His wrath against the world. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

However, Satan will bring the great tribulation against believers.

How can the great tribulation and the wrath of God be the same if believers are not appointed to wrath?

Therefore you have manufactured 2 comings in great power and glory.

No. The Word says that immediately after the tribulation of those days the signs of the sun, moon and stars will occurs. Then the Lord will appear to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This occurs at the 6th seal as we see the signs of the sun, moon and stars. We also see a great multitude in heaven who are there for the marriage supper. We also see those that came out of great tribulation.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

All the evidence points to the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurring at the 6th seal. There is NO EVIDENCE pointing to Revelation 19. Power and Glory occurs anytime Jesus shows up with His angels.

Note you Left out the wording of vs 30 that says power and great glory

So are you saying that Jesus showing up with His angels to gather the elect will not be in power and glory?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ok.


Great. He also returns at the 6th seal in power and glory.............that we know for a fact as we have the signs of the sun, moon and stars to show us that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest.


Great. Don't forget that He comes at the 6th seal as proven by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.


No. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

I have no clue why you are unable so see that the signs of the sun, moon and stars of Matthew 24 occur at the 6th seal. It's right there in the scripture.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest immediately after the tribulation and then the 7th seal, Day of the Lord, Wrath of God begins.

So you are saying that if lightning from east to west came and we saw Jesus in the clouds with His angels being sent to gather the elect from the earth which is a harvest before wrath................that it WOULDN'T be in power and glory.

Wow. I think anytime Jesus shows up with his angels that it would be in power and glory and the the kings of the earth would beg the rocks of the earth to fall on them and hide them.

Have you actually read Matthew? 24 in context with revelation 6?
It says "after the tribulation of those days".
When you quoted that scripture, you minimized "of those days"
If you read the last part of revelation six, it tells you what those days are.

They are the final days of the judgment of the Earth After the wrath men are hiding in cave and they see the face of God....and Can see the wrath of the lamb .( the return on white horses).

that cannot possibly be immediately after the trib part and before the wrath part of the gt.

You need to read all of ch 6 in rev.

 

[The Light]

So, in your opinion, Daniel was told the 1290 days and the 1335th day in Daniel 12:11-12 for nothing ?

I missed the part where I said that. Can you point it out to me?

No-one knows the start calendar date, nor the calendar year.

?

The great tribulation will be cut short of all flesh on earth ending.

The great tribulation is cut short for the elect so that alive flesh will be raptured. Otherwise there would be no one alive to be raptured, all would come from the graves.

But you make zero days provision for the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army.

It's not necessary. They gather in the course of events during the wrath of God. How long it takes is irrelevant.

The sixth seal event, the appearance of Jesus sickle in hand, is what sends terror into the kings of the earth that they out of self survival are driven to assemble their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest immediately after the tribulation. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This is the great multitude seen in Revelation 7. The great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper during the one year wrath of God.

At the end of wrath, the armies of heaven come for Armageddon. How long it takes the kings of the earth to gather their armies is irrelevant.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually, contrary to popular belief, the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord...........occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the wrath of God begins.


There is no 7 year great tribulation. There is a 7 year period from the time that the covenant with many is made .

How could your contention be correct if the great tribulation begins AFTER the abomination of desolation is set up, and the AOD is not set up until the midst of the week?

There is a final week to go from the time that the covenant with many is made.


So your saying when Jesus shows up at the 6th seal with Him angels to gather the elect that He won't be in power and glory?

There are no white horses seen in Matthew 24. There are angels sent to gather the elect. Does this sound like Armageddon? Additionally, there are no signs of the sun, moon and stars seen in Revelation 19. They are seen in Revelation 6.

None of the evidence supports this erroneous conclusion that has been passed around from past times when the books were sealed.


The Great Tribulation is brought by Satan against the believers that do not take the mark.

The wrath of God is brought by God against unbelievers that have done wickedly.

Do you think these are the same???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Again, do you think the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God are the same thing?????????????????????????????????????????????????


The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal according to the Word of God. Jesus comes for a harvest of believers before He unleashed His wrath against the world. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

However, Satan will bring the great tribulation against believers.

How can the great tribulation and the wrath of God be the same if believers are not appointed to wrath?


No. The Word says that immediately after the tribulation of those days the signs of the sun, moon and stars will occurs. Then the Lord will appear to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This occurs at the 6th seal as we see the signs of the sun, moon and stars. We also see a great multitude in heaven who are there for the marriage supper. We also see those that came out of great tribulation.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

All the evidence points to the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurring at the 6th seal. There is NO EVIDENCE pointing to Revelation 19. Power and Glory occurs anytime Jesus shows up with His angels.

So are you saying that Jesus showing up with His angels to gather the elect will not be in power and glory?

QUOTE
"your saying when Jesus shows up at the 6th seal with Him angels to gather the elect that He won't be in power and glory?"

You really need to read Rev 6.
Then you will properly place the earthquake and blood moon and the sun blackened.

( which will cause you to understand "immediately after the tribulation " is "immediately after the wrath" part.

Rev 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You are placing that prewrath.
It is in fact POST-WRATH.

If you cannot test, fit another possible viewpoint, then you will never.
Understand what is bing said.

You think you have it all figured out.
Nope.

"After The tribulation of those days" can not be prewrath.
It does not fit.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I missed the part where I said that. Can you point it out to me?


?

The great tribulation is cut short for the elect so that alive flesh will be raptured. Otherwise there would be no one alive to be raptured, all would come from the graves.


It's not necessary. They gather in the course of events during the wrath of God. How long it takes is irrelevant.


Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest immediately after the tribulation. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This is the great multitude seen in Revelation 7. The great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper during the one year wrath of God.

At the end of wrath, the armies of heaven come for Armageddon. How long it takes the kings of the earth to gather their armies is irrelevant.

QUOTE
"At the end of wrath, the armies of heaven come for Armageddon. How long it takes the kings of the earth to gather their armies is irrelevant"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is this:
Rev 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

But you are saying that is prewrath

 

[The Light]

None of Rev 6, and 7 passes ANY chronology test.
The Jews are sealed and locusts are released AFTER your Rev 6 verses.

Those items are happening early on in the trib.

You are placing chronology where it does not fit.

You don't understand what you are reading.

At the 7th trumpet..............it's finished. The wrath of God is over.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the first 6 seals.

Here is the 5th seal........the great tribualtion.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the 6th seal, Jesus coming for the harvest before wrath.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

[The Light]

Have you actually read Matthew? 24 in context with revelation 6?
It says "after the tribulation of those days".
When you quoted that scripture, you minimized "of those days"
If you read the last part of revelation six, it tells you what those days are.

The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

They are the final days of the judgment of the Earth After the wrath men are hiding in cave and they see the face of God....and Can see the wrath of the lamb .( the return on white horses).

that cannot possibly be immediately after the trib part and before the wrath part of the gt.

You need to read all of ch 6 in rev.

They are hiding in caves because Jesus has shown up for the gathering from heaven and earth with His angels. They know that the wrath of God is about to begin.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[The Light]

QUOTE
"your saying when Jesus shows up at the 6th seal with Him angels to gather the elect that He won't be in power and glory?"

You really need to read Rev 6.
Then you will properly place the earthquake and blood moon and the sun blackened.

( which will cause you to understand "immediately after the tribulation " is "immediately after the wrath" part.

Rev 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You are placing that prewrath.
It is in fact POST-WRATH.

The signs of the sun, moon and stars show you that Jesus shows up at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth. There is no gathering from the earth when Jesus returns in Revelation 19. He is returning for destruction at Armageddon.

If you cannot test, fit another possible viewpoint, then you will never.
Understand what is bing said.

You think you have it all figured out.
Nope.

"After The tribulation of those days" can not be prewrath.
It does not fit.

Nothing in the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 fits Revelation 19. Are there signs in the sun, moon and stars in Revelation 19? Is there a gathering of the elect from the earth in Revelation 19? No. The elect are already in heaven at the marriage supper prior to Revelation 19.

The fact is, you are claiming that the great tribulation brought by Satan against believers is the same thing as God bringing His wrath against the wicked.

How is it that you do not understand this?