Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus was perfectly clear. The great tribulation will be the greatest tribulation seen on earth. The Great Tribulation which is brought against believers by Satan is NOT the Day of the Lord, wrath of God, brought against unbelievers by God. It's simple.


There is no 7 year tribulation.

Strawman.

Don't recall saying that.


Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You fail to understand that the great tribulation is brought against believers. The wrath of God is brought against unbelievers.

Nope.
In the first part of the trib thousands die.
Earth's inhabitants.
So the " no trib for unbelievers " is way off.
See this is what I am talking about.
The hyper separation of "wrath vs trib" and "no overlap remotely possible" is a picture frame to interpret mat 24.

I just proved it is not valid at all.

....and you are unaware of the purpose of the trib.

 

[Douggg]

Nope.
In the first part of the trib thousands die.

In the forthcoming 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27, when does the great tribulation begin ?

 

[rebuilder 454]

In the forthcoming 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27, when does the great tribulation begin ?

At the white horseman

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please.

You've got Christ that sends angels sent to gather the elect and you want to put that at Armageddon.

There are no signs of the sun, moon and stars at Armageddon. They are at the 6th seal.

Not correct.
Angels gather in heaven at the white horses.

You recruited that to the rapture.
All rapture verses are peacetime, normal life, everyday life and buying selling

You undid verses to make a warrior coming merge with a groom coming with zero warfare and no such setting of the ac with the mark on every man woman and child not written in the book.

Your setting is poorly thought out. Actually impossible.

 

[Douggg]

At the white horseman

Take a look at Matthew 24:15-21

Then at Daniel 12:11-12.

The Great Tribulation will begin when the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

 

[The Light]

Armageddon, in Revelation 16:16, is the location where the kings of the earth will gather their armies to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army.

What causes that reaction by the kings of the earth is that in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, is Jesus appearing in heaven, sickle in hand - intending to avenge the deaths of the great tribulation martyrs in the fifth seal seal. Revelation 6:10.

Why do you ignore the 1st 5 trumpets and the 1st 5 seals. Trumpet 5 lasts 5 months. That is 150 days. Where are these events in your timeline?

You are correct that the great tribulation is the 5th seal.

Here is the great tribulation which is the 5th seal in Revelation 14.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the coming of Jesus with His angels to gather the elect which occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is the unrighteous being cast into the wrath of God which occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Here is that event in the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Those armies surrounding Jerusalem will be destroyed by Jesus. While the rest of the kings of the earth armies in the rest of Israel will be destroyed by the angel given a sickle in Revelation 14. The blood will run deep as a horse's bridle for 200 miles, it says in Revelation 14:20.

The angel with the sickle casts the unbelievers into the wrath of God..........and nothing more.

If you look at Revelation 14:20, the angel's destruction is separate from Jesus's destruction of the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Without the city is referring to outside of and not including the city.

The angel does not do this. The angel cast the unbelievers into the wrath of God.

After Jesus executes His wrath in Revelation 19:17-21, then He sends His angels out to gather the Jews from around the world to the land of Israel, the land of their forefathers, in Matthew 24:31, fulfilling Deuteronomy 30:1-6. The gathering is also in Ezekiel 39:28. Jesus's Second Coming is also in Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

Eze 39 happens after the 1000 years when Jerusalem is unwalled.

 

[The Light]

Explain how they get on white horses of rev 19 which is tge second coming on white horses????
Mat 24 fits PERFECTLY

It's past time for you to examine the evidence without blinders.

Do you see any white horses in Matthew 24? Do you see angels sent to gather the elect in Revelation 19?

Do you see any signs of the sun, moon and stars in Revelation 19?

No of course not.

The signs of the sun, moon and star of Matthew 24 occur at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal according to scripture.

Do you think ANGELS ALREADY IN HEAVEN, GATHER ALL THAT ARMY TO ASSEMBLE IN HEAVEN ON WHITE HORSES?????
But you leave out that that coming by Jesus is in power and great glory IN MAT 24

I leave out nothing. Do you not believe that when Jesus shows up as lightning from the east to the west with an army of angels to gather the elect that He will NOT be in power and glory?

The scripture proves that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal because of the signs of the sun, moon and stars. There are no signs of the sun, moon and stars in Revelation 19.

Your choice........believe what you have been taught or read the scripture and believe what it says.

Which is OPPOSITE OF THE SETTING AT EVERY RAPTURE VERSE
Your setting is completely off and wrong.

It is puzzling that you understand there are two raptures and yet don't understand when they occur.

 

[The Light]

Yes.
Angels gather the elect from heaven as you point out, not realizing in the rapture Jesus gathers.
So maybe put all context on table

1st rapture
The Lord Himself comes as the bridegroom for the Church at the trump of God or voice of God. This is the rapture of the Church when it's like the days of Noah. The dead rise first........the barley harvest. The alive that remain are then caught in the wheat harvest.

2nd rapture
At the last trump, blown on the feast of trumpets, the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye when it's like the days of Lot. This is the fruit harvest which occurs in the fall. The Jews sing the song of Moses.

 

[The Light]

Not correct.
Angels gather in heaven at the white horses.

Great. Revelation 19, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the angels being sent to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

You recruited that to the rapture.
All rapture verses are peacetime, normal life, everyday life and buying selling

Rapture of the Church will occur before the tribulation..........like the days of Noah.

Immediately after the tribulation they will say peace and safety and then the Day of the Lord wrath of God will occur at the 6th seal.

1 Thes 5

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

How is it that you don't understand this?

You undid verses to make a warrior coming merge with a groom coming with zero warfare and no such setting of the ac with the mark on every man woman and child not written in the book.

Your setting is poorly thought out. Actually impossible.

No..............you are confused and make illogical conclusions of what I am saying. You were claiming that I said the white horses event occurs at the 6th seal which is so illogical because I am saying that Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. Anyone seeking the truth can see that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal as we have a timestamp of the sun, moon and stars event.

 

[Douggg]

Why do you ignore the 1st 5 trumpets and the 1st 5 seals. Trumpet 5 lasts 5 months. That is 150 days. Where are these events in your timeline?

The 150 days of Trumpet 5 will take place after Trumpet 4 as shown on the timeline.

 

[Douggg]

Why do you ignore the 1st 5 trumpets and the 1st 5 seals. Trumpet 5 lasts 5 months. That is 150 days. Where are these events in your timeline?

The seals are on this chart...

 

[The Light]

The 150 days of Trumpet 5 will take place after Trumpet 4 as shown on the timeline.


View attachment 57774

The 5th trumpet occurs after the tribulation is over. The 5th trumpet occurs during the one year wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

The seals are on this chart...

View attachment 57776

By understanding that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal we understand your chart is in error. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God

 

[rebuilder 454]

Take a look at Matthew 24:15-21

Then at Daniel 12:11-12.

The Great Tribulation will begin when the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

Hard to get on the same page with modern phrase centered people.
"Trib"
"Great trib"
"Wrath"

7 YR TRIB BECOMES A BOGEYMAN THAT IS OFF THE TABLE.

And all those phrases used outside of the bible...but so key to misleading people into some made up timeline and just recklessly omit verses.

IOW the key , they think, is in some smoking gun definition.

 

[Douggg]

By understanding that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal we understand your chart is in error. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God

The great tribulation is not fully over at the 6th seal. What is phrased as "the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29) is over at the 6th seal, though.

The reason the great tribulation is not fully over at the 6th seal, is that there will be the 7th vial of God's wrath poured out on the world (Revelation 16:17-21), right before Jesus descends to earth. And also during the 45 days that the armies gather to prepare to make war on Jesus, a portion of them will enter Jerusalem, raping the women, and pillaging the houses (Zechariah 14:2).

 

[The Light]

The great tribulation is not fully over at the 6th seal.

Douggg. I wonder, why do you make things up. Do you not believe the Word of God that says...........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..........which is the great tribulation as it says in Matthew 24:21.

How can you possibly ever understand scripture when you take a sledgehammer and beat things into place.​

What is phrased as "the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29) is over at the 6th seal, though.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The reason the great tribulation is not fully over at the 6th seal, is that there will be the 7th vial of God's wrath poured out on the world (Revelation 16:17-21), right before Jesus descends to earth.

Douggg. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal as the Word of God says.................IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation.

So what would happen if you just read the Word of God and put things where God says they go.

You would see that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the 7th seal wrath of God will begin.

And also during the 45 days that the armies gather to prepare to make war on Jesus, a portion of them will enter Jerusalem, raping the women, and pillaging the houses (Zechariah 14:2).

Again, why the sledge??????????????

 

[Douggg]

Douggg. I wonder, why do you make things up. Do you not believe the Word of God that says...........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..........which is the great tribulation as it says in Matthew 24:21.

The text of Matthew 24:29 does not say after the great tribulation. Nor when the great tribulation is over. great tribulation is not in the text of Matthew 24:29.

The 7th vial of God's wrath takes place in the great tribulation of 1335 days in length. What does Matthew 24:21 say about the great tribulation ?

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Now look at what it says in Revelation 16:18. First is the gathering at Armageddon. Then the 7th angel pours out his vial of God's wrath... saying "it is done" (verse17). What is done? The great tribulation is done following the 7th vial actions in verses 18-21.

...again, see what it says in Revelation 16:18....

Revelation 15:
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I added the 7th vial poured out to my chart...

 

[The Light]

The text of Matthew 24:29 does not say after the great tribulation. Nor when the great tribulation is over. great tribulation is not in the text of Matthew 24:29.

Are you unable to conclude that the tribulation of those days is the great tribulation? Why would you possibly think that the great tribulation is not the tribulation of those days?

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The 7th vial of God's wrath takes place in the great tribulation of 1335 days in length.

Why not try agreeing with the Word. The Word says that the tribulation of those days..........which is obviously the Great Tribulation...........is over at the 6th seal. JESUS COMES.............at the 6th seal. And sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The 7th seal is the one year wrath of God which contains both the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath.

What does Matthew 24:21 say about the great tribulation ?

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Now look at what it says in Revelation 16:18. First is the gathering at Armageddon. Then the 7th angel pours out his vial of God's wrath... saying "it is done" (verse17). What is done? The great tribulation is done following the 7th vial actions in verses 18-21.

No Douggg. Use common sense if you can't believe what is written. The great tribulation is the dragon trying to kill the seed of the woman which are the 12 tribes across the earth. The dragon can't get to the woman Israel as Israel has fled to a place prepared for her.

Revelation 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

But the great tribulation of those days is cut short. If it was not cut short, there would be no flesh alive that would be raptured to heaven. All believers would be killed so no flesh would be caught up alive at the rapture at the 6th seal............which is the second rapture.

...again, see what it says in Revelation 16:18....

Revelation 15:
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

............again, see what it says in Revelation 11

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ has set up His kingdom when the 7th trumpet sounds. Armageddon is already over.......as the trumpets and vials of wrath take place in the 7th seal.

.............and the mystery of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Revelation 11
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[Douggg]

Are you unable to conclude that the tribulation of those days is the great tribulation?

The tribulation of those days is most of the great tribulation, but not all of it.

The tribulation of those days will be 1290 days long, Daniel 12:11
The great tribulation will be 1335 days long, Daniel 12:12.

Why not try agreeing with the Word. The Word says that the tribulation of those days..........which is obviously the Great Tribulation...........is over at the 6th seal. JESUS COMES.............at the 6th seal. And sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Jesus does not come in the 6th seal. It is the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven is what takes place in the 6th seal.

Then 45 days later, Jesus comes down to earth, to stand on the mount of Olives.

............again, see what it says in Revelation 11

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ has set up His kingdom when the 7th trumpet sounds. Armageddon is already over.......as the trumpets and vials of wrath take place in the 7th seal.

.............and the mystery of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

In Revelation 11:15, the seventh angel is sounding his trumpet, not pouring out his vial of God's wrath.

Revelation 11
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

To take place during the time, times, half time that Satan will have left. During which. God will destroy them which destroy the earth (verse 18).

 

[The Light]

The tribulation of those days is most of the great tribulation, but not all of it.

The tribulation of those days will be 1290 days long, Daniel 12:11
The great tribulation will be 1335 days long, Daniel 12:12.

Not logical nor scriptural. It is Dougggural.

The great tribulation IS the tribulation of those days............PERIOD.

Jesus does not come in the 6th seal. It is the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven is what takes place in the 6th seal.

Then 45 days later, Jesus comes down to earth, to stand on the mount of Olives.

This is just something that you have made up. Here's what happens at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


AND THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

NOT 45 DAYS LATER. You decided that.................the scripture didn't say that.

In Revelation 11:15, the seventh angel is sounding his trumpet, not pouring out his vial of God's wrath.

The seventh angel is sounding his trumpet and THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD. The sixth vial of wrath has already been poured out. Armageddon is over when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Christ has already set up the millennial kingdom.

I don't understand how you don't see that when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, Christ has set up his kingdom on the earth.