Who or What is Babylon the Great? How do God’s people come to be in her?

[quietthinker]

What color are your glasses? How do we evaluate your view?

I know AJ, you do not know how to evaluate my view. My reference point is unrecognisable to you......yet you argue with me. How does that work?

Did my post make you uncomfortable, since it is just the plain truth of Scripture?

To equate your paradigm with the 'plain truth of scripture' is over the top subjective, wouldn't you say? Why would recognising this make me feel uncomfortable?

Yahweh has always been an “organised” God...please tell me when he wasn’t....?

Did I say he wasn't?

AJ....your objective as I see it in your posts is to highlight the perceived greatness of your denomination. You present it as a 'it can do no wrong' collective of people.....as well as, its structure is unquestionably correct where all participants are in agreement.

These are rose coloured glasses you done. How is it you do not understand this?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why not look to your own JW website? Or, do you propose to teach Christians what JW's believe about Babylon the Great.

I propose to teach what the Bible says actually……but thank you for posting that info…I hope people people found it useful….

We are in the “Unorthodox” forum, and hence we post about unorthodox subjects.

Are you here to defend orthodox beliefs? If so, then fire away….that is what this forum is for.
It’s a wonderful opportunity to discuss (hopefully in a civil fashion) what some take for granted as a “Christian” doctrine, only to find that its roots are totally pagan….not from the Bible, not from the apostles and not from Jesus Christ himself.

If you understand who or what “Babylon the great” is…we are all ears. Let’s hear your views and supporting scripture.
But don’t be surprised at the push back from those who disagree…..those who hold to “orthodox” beliefs will find out where they came from in this forum.

 

[pepper]

I propose to teach what the Bible says actually……but thank you for posting that info…I hope people people found it useful….

We are in the “Unorthodox” forum, and hence we post about unorthodox subjects.

Are you here to defend orthodox beliefs? If so, then fire away….that is what this forum is for.
It’s a wonderful opportunity to discuss (hopefully in a civil fashion) what some take for granted as a “Christian” doctrine, only to find that its roots are totally pagan….not from the Bible, not from the apostles and not from Jesus Christ himself.

If you understand who or what “Babylon the great” is…we are all ears. Let’s hear your views and supporting scripture.
But don’t be surprised at the push back from those who disagree…..those who hold to “orthodox” beliefs will find out where they came from in this forum.

"Where they came from..."

Interesting.

Where did the unorthodox Jehovah Witness,yourself for instance, come from?

And to clarify your post,you are here,as a JW,to teach,and hopefully civilly, what the New World Translation, the Bible of the JW's contains.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/

 

[Aunty Jane]

I know AJ, you do not know how to evaluate my view. My reference point is unrecognisable to you......yet you argue with me. How does that work?

It is my response to what I think you might have said…..in case you don’t know QT, your views are on a very different wavelength to what many here might describe as coherent commentary.
You seem to think outside any box I have encountered in many years of posting on forums like this.
You post thoughts that have no real content and yet you cannot understand people misread you.
Are we supposed to have a sixth sense in determining what you meant but never said?

To equate your paradigm with the 'plain truth of scripture' is over the top subjective, wouldn't you say? Why would recognising this make me feel uncomfortable?

My paradigm is mine as yours is yours….yet I have no idea what your paradigm is since you rarely mention anything that requires a qualified reply. There is a vagueness about your words that do not allow the reader to actually address much of what you say…do you assume that people can read your mind?
That is a mistake.

Did I say he wasn't?

That’s the problem…..you don’t say much at all. How can anyone know what you believe if you don’t share it?

AJ....your objective as I see it in your posts is to highlight the perceived greatness of your denomination. You present it as a 'it can do no wrong' collective of people.....as well as, its structure is unquestionably correct where all participants are in agreement.

These are rose coloured glasses you done. How is it you do not understand this?

I understand my own brotherhood compared to many I have encountered especially before I chose to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I did not find any other group of Christians who all subscribe to one truth and who try hardener than anyone else I know to do what Christ commanded them to do….when was the last time one of Christendom’s members called at your door with the good news of the kingdom? (That is, if you lived somewhere less remote than FNQ)

Are my brothers perfect? Hardly, but that does not disqualify them…..were the apostles perfect? Did they always have perfect conduct and understanding? As imperfect humans, that can hardly be a requirement.
Jesus used their good qualities and willingness to abide by the standards he set, to teach others. Mistakes were made and recorded for our benefit….so we could see what Jesus himself required of his disciples. The same standard applied to all.…and all shared one truth. (1 Cor 1:10)

If that is a stumbling block to you, then tell me about your brotherhood and what they believe, and how you meet regularly with them for encouragement? (Heb 10:24-25) Have you come across anyone who shares your beliefs?

You cannot be a “Christian” just by calling yourself one, otherwise the the ridiculous number of sects in Christendom would be even more ridiculous!

 

[quietthinker]

It is my response to what I think you might have said…..in case you don’t know QT, your views are on a very different wavelength to what many here might describe as coherent commentary.
You seem to think outside any box I have encountered in many years of posting on forums like this.
You post thoughts that have no real content and yet you cannot understand people misread you.
Are we supposed to have a sixth sense in determining what you meant but never said?

My paradigm is mine as yours is yours….yet I have no idea what your paradigm is since you rarely mention anything that requires a qualified reply. There is a vagueness about your words that do not allow the reader to actually address much of what you say…do you assume that people can read your mind?
That is a mistake.

That’s the problem…..you don’t say much at all. How can anyone know what you believe if you don’t share it?

I understand my own brotherhood compared to many I have encountered especially before I chose to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I did not find any other group of Christians who all subscribe to one truth and who try hardener than anyone else I know to do what Christ commanded them to do….when was the last time one of Christendom’s members called at your door with the good news of the kingdom? (That is, if you lived somewhere less remote than FNQ)

Are my brothers perfect? Hardly, but that does not disqualify them…..were the apostles perfect? Did they always have perfect conduct and understanding? As imperfect humans, that can hardly be a requirement.
Jesus used their good qualities and willingness to abide by the standards he set, to teach others. Mistakes were made and recorded for our benefit….so we could see what Jesus himself required of his disciples. The same standard applied to all.…and all shared one truth. (1 Cor 1:10)

If that is a stumbling block to you, then tell me about your brotherhood and what they believe, and how you meet regularly with them for encouragement? (Heb 10:24-25) Have you come across anyone who shares your beliefs?

You cannot be a “Christian” just by calling yourself one, otherwise the the ridiculous number of sects in Christendom would be even more ridiculous!

I acknowledge that you do not understand what I say but why blame the messenger? Could it be that it is your inability to hear which constitutes the problem?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I acknowledge that you do not understand what I say but why blame the messenger? Could it be that it is your inability to hear which is constitutes the problem?

1 Cor 14:8-11…..Paul addressed this very problem….
”8  For if the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle? 9  In the same way, unless you with the tongue use speech that is easily understood, how will anyone know what is being said? You will, in fact, be speaking into the air. 10  It may be that there are many kinds of speech in the world, and yet no kind is without meaning. 11  For if I do not understand the sense of the speech, I will be a foreigner to the one speaking, and the one speaking will be a foreigner to me.”

You are a foreigner to me QT….
Its up to the messenger to get the message right….and he must agree with all the other messengers who are sent out to preach about God’s Kingdom. (Matt 24:14) All the world has to hear one message from Christ’s true disciples….the Christ does not speak with a forked tongue….it’s the other fella who does that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

"Where they came from..."

Interesting.

Yes, where do Christendom’s beliefs come from?
I was raised in Christendom, so I have been on both sides of this fence…have you?

Would it ever occur to you that the devil did exactly what Jesus and his apostles warned about? He created a counterfeit “Christianity” with which he misled the masses from early times, gradually introducing ideas that were not scriptural, but grafted over ambiguous verses to make it look authentic.

Tell the lies often enough and people begin to accept them as truth.

Where did the unorthodox Jehovah Witness,yourself for instance, come from?

That‘s the amazing thing……when you actually study the Bible and not just “theology”, you get to see what ALL of Scripture teaches…not just what satan’s counterfeit wants you to believe with its altered cherry picked verses. What used to be orthodox is now unorthodox and vice versa…this is a trait of Satan’s world.

Look at the medical system and see what happened to what used to be “orthodox medicine” based on God’s pharmacy, with medicinal herbs and plants, compared to modern medicine with its artificially produced drugs designed to modify symptoms without really curing anyone. This creates a false dependency on a system designed to keep you sick and to profit off your gullibility. Do the general public know that they are being deceived or do they think modern medicine is a marvel?

Many now are waking up to the deception and returning to the “unorthodox” forms of treatment with great success.

Religion is no different…..people are waking up to the rorts of today’s religious entities with their emphasis on money, material things, prosperity, and emotional placating, instead of sound Bible knowledge…..whereas Jesus‘ taught his disciples to be content with just the necessary things and to not give in to “the love of money” because that is where evil lurks. (1 Tim 6:10) Knowledge is what Christ imparted to his disciples and he trained them to be preachers…..(Matt 10:11-14)

And to clarify your post,you are here,as a JW,to teach,and hopefully civilly, what the New World Translation, the Bible of the JW's contains.

I can teach the truth with any Bible as long as I have a good concordance and an Interlinear…..the NWT is my preferred translation for obvious reasons, but it is not the only Bible I refer to on these boards. It is more beneficial to show people from their own preferred Bible translations, where the misinterpretations and mistranslations take place…..that carries more weight than I ever could just by quoting the NWT.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/

If you go to the WT online Library you will see a variety of translations that are available for anyone to read…
Click the link….
Available Bibles

 

[quietthinker]

1 Cor 14:8-11…..Paul addressed this very problem….
”8  For if the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle? 9  In the same way, unless you with the tongue use speech that is easily understood, how will anyone know what is being said? You will, in fact, be speaking into the air. 10  It may be that there are many kinds of speech in the world, and yet no kind is without meaning. 11  For if I do not understand the sense of the speech, I will be a foreigner to the one speaking, and the one speaking will be a foreigner to me.”

You are a foreigner to me QT….
Its up to the messenger to get the message right….and he must agree with all the other messengers who are sent out to preach about God’s Kingdom. (Matt 24:14) All the world has to hear one message from Christ’s true disciples….the Christ does not speak with a forked tongue….it’s the other fella who does that.

Cut to the chase AJ, what is that message?

 

[pepper]

Fair use for educational purposes regarding the Jehovah Witness Watchtower version of the Bible.

Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible? Did the Jehovah’s Witnessess intentionally alter the Bible to create the New World Translation?

www.gotquestions.org

Question: "Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?"


Answer: The New World Translation (NWT) is defined by the Jehovah's Witnesses’ parent organization (the Watchtower Society) as "a translation of the Holy Scriptures made directly from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek into modern-day English by a committee of anointed witnesses of Jehovah." The NWT is the anonymous work of the “New World Bible Translation Committee.” Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that the anonymity is in place so that the credit for the work will go to God. Of course, this has the added benefit of keeping the translators from any accountability for their errors and prevents real scholars from checking their academic credentials.

The New World Translation is unique in one thing – it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group's doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs. The “New World Bible Translation Committee” went through the Bible and changed any Scripture that did not agree with Jehovah’s Witness theology. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that, as new editions of the New World Translation were published, additional changes were made to the biblical text. As biblical Christians continued to point out Scriptures that clearly argue for the deity of Christ (for example), the Watchtower Society would publish new editions of the New World Translation with those Scriptures changed. Here are some of the more prominent examples of intentional revisions:

The New World Translation renders the Greek term word staurós ("cross") as "torture stake" because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross. The New World Translation does not translate the words sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus as "hell” because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in hell. The NWT gives the translation "presence" instead of “coming” for the Greek word parousia because Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ has already returned in the early 1900s. In Colossians 1:16, the NWT inserts the word “other” despite its being completely absent from the original Greek text. It does this to give the view that “all other things” were created by Christ, instead of what the text says, “all things were created by Christ.” This is to go along with their belief that Christ is a created being, which they believe because they deny the Trinity.

The most well-known of all the New World Translation perversions is John 1:1. The original Greek text reads, “the Word was God.” The NWT renders it as “the word was a god.” This is not a matter of correct translation, but of reading one's preconceived theology into the text, rather than allowing the text to speak for itself. There is no indefinite article in Greek (in English, "a" or "an"), so any use of an indefinite article in English must be added by the translator. This is grammatically acceptable, so long as it does not change the meaning of the text.

There is a good reason why theos has no definite article in John 1:1 and why the New World Translation rendering is in error. There are three general rules we need to understand to see why.

1. In Greek, word order does not determine word usage like it does in English. In English, a sentence is structured according to word order: Subject - Verb - Object. Thus, "Harry called the dog" is not equivalent to "the dog called Harry." But in Greek, a word's function is determined by the case ending found attached to the word's root. There are two case endings for the root theo: one is -s (theos), the other is -n (theon). The -s ending normally identifies a noun as being the subject of a sentence, while the -n ending normally identifies a noun as the direct object.

2. When a noun functions as a predicate nominative (in English, a noun that follows a being verb such as "is"), its case ending must match the noun's case that it renames, so that the reader will know which noun it is defining. Therefore, theo must take the -s ending because it is renaming logos. Therefore, John 1:1 transliterates to "kai theos en ho logos." Is theos the subject, or is logos? Both have the -s ending. The answer is found in the next rule.

3. In cases where two nouns appear, and both take the same case ending, the author will often add the definite article to the word that is the subject in order to avoid confusion. John put the definite article on logos (“the Word”) instead of on theos. So, logos is the subject, and theos is the predicate nominative. In English, this results in John 1:1 being read as "and the Word was God" (instead of "and God was the word").

The most revealing evidence of the Watchtower's bias is their inconsistent translation technique. Throughout the Gospel of John, the Greek word theon occurs without a definite article. The New World Translation renders none of these as “a god.” Even more inconsistent, in John 1:18, the NWT translates the same term as both "God" and "god" in the very same sentence.

The Watchtower, therefore, has no hard textual grounds for their translation—only their own theological bias. While New World Translation defenders might succeed in showing that John 1:1 can be translated as they have done, they cannot show that it is the proper translation. Nor can they explain the fact that that the NWT does not translate the same Greek phrases elsewhere in the Gospel of John the same way. It is only the pre-conceived heretical rejection of the deity of Christ that forces the Watchtower Society to inconsistently translate the Greek text, thus allowing their error to gain some semblance of legitimacy in the minds of those ignorant of the facts.

It is only the Watchtower's pre-conceived heretical beliefs that are behind the dishonest and inconsistent translation that is the New World Translation. The New World Translation is most definitely not a valid version of God’s Word. There are minor differences among all the major English translations of the Bible. No English translation is perfect. However, while other Bible translators make minor mistakes in the rendering of the Hebrew and Greek text into English, the NWT intentionally changes the rendering of the text to conform to Jehovah’s Witness theology. The New World Translation is a perversion, not a version, of the Bible.

© Copyright 2002-2025 Got Questions Ministries. All rights reserved.
www.GotQuestions.org

 

[Aunty Jane]

Cut to the chase AJ, what is that message?

Well that is a good challenge…”the message” is about God’s Kingdom….whenever we speak about God’s Kingdom, it’s interesting that when I ask anyone about God’s Kingdom, those who identify as “Christians” are hard pressed to tell me what it is….how it comes….and what it accomplishes….

So what is God’s Kingdom to you? How does it come? And what is its purpose….? Let’s start there and you tell me what your viewpoint is and I’ll tell you where I disagree and why….that is called a discussion…do you think we could have one?….without the “jokes”, which are only funny to you….

What is your message?

 

[quietthinker]

Well that is a good challenge…”the message” is about God’s Kingdom….whenever we speak about God’s Kingdom, it’s interesting that when I ask anyone about God’s Kingdom, those who identify as “Christians” are hard pressed to tell me what it is….how it comes….and what it accomplishes….

So what is God’s Kingdom to you? How does it come? And what is its purpose….? Let’s start there and you tell me what your viewpoint is and I’ll tell you where I disagree and why….that is called a discussion…do you think we could have one?….without the “jokes”, which are only funny to you….

What is your message?

I have asked you. You even admit it's a challenge. Go on then .....why the avoidance?

 

[Aunty Jane]

It is only the Watchtower's pre-conceived heretical beliefs that are behind the dishonest and inconsistent translation that is the New World Translation. The New World Translation is most definitely not a valid version of God’s Word. There are minor differences among all the major English translations of the Bible. No English translation is perfect. However, while other Bible translators make minor mistakes in the rendering of the Hebrew and Greek text into English, the NWT intentionally changes the rendering of the text to conform to Jehovah’s Witness theology. The New World Translation is a perversion, not a version, of the Bible.

OK…”Got Question.Org“ is a resource that promotes Christendom’s beliefs and uses them to dispel the beliefs of all kinds of sects…..
So what makes you think that “Got Questions” is a reliable source of truth? Is it because it supports what you want to believe….and so if they say JW’s theology is wrong…then it must be.….Right? But have you really checked out what the Bible says as opposed to what “the church” says is the truth?…and which “church” out of the thousands of denominations, would that be anyway? (1 Cor 1:10)

I have proven all things to myself through careful research and study, using Strongs Concordance and Interlinear translations of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures……not just the NWT.

The accusations against my brotherhood are in line with what happened to the Christians of the first century…..satan never changes his tactics, so Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism……The “weeds” of Jesus parable…..can you tell me please, who were the foremost persecutors of Jesus disciples? Wasn’t it those who purported to worship the same God?.…accusing Jesus of blasphemy for claiming that God was his Father? Jesus taught the truth but the Jews rejected it in favor of what the Pharisees taught. It led them to murder their own Messiah! Did they think for one moment that they were wrong?

When Plate wanted to release Jesus, because he could find no charge against him deserving of death, what happened?

Matt 27:24-25…..
”When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this Man’s blood; see to that yourselves.” And all the people said, “His blood shall be on us and on our children!” (NASB1995)
The Jews cursed themselves and their future children with Jesus’ blood….that is how sure they were.

What did Jesus say about the Jewish leaders…..
Matt 23:33….
”You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? (NASB1995)

Now did Jesus really threaten the Pharisees with “hell”? Was he saying that God would roast their souls in a fiery underworld for the rest of eternity, as Christendom teaches?

The word in Greek is “Gehenna” defined by Strongs Concordance as follows….

“Outline of Biblical Usage

1. Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.”

Read that carefully…what is the future of those in “Gehenna”?…..”destruction”, which is in line with what Jesus said in Matt 10:28….a well known scripture…

”Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (NASB1995)

So what is hell? A place of eternal conscious torment?..…or everlasting destruction? You tell me.

Anti-JW stuff is all over the internet and you know what? If the internet had been available in Jesus’ day, his teachings would have been all over it too….but not in a good way.

What was Jesus’ warning to his disciples?

John 15:18-21….
”If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.” (NASB1995)

What else did Jesus say about those who vehemently disagreed with his teachings?

Matt 5:11-12…
”Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” (NASB1995)

Would the majority have the truth when it came time for the judgment?
Again, what did Jesus say?
Matt 7:13-14….
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (NASB1995)

If “few“ are the ones who find the right path, judging by what has occurred in the past, then the majority have a rude shock awaiting them. How will that play out?

Jesus himself answers….
”Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven . Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me you who practice lawlessness.’” (NASB1995)

Look these scriptures up in any translation of the Bible you like and they will say exactly what the NWT says.
Does this sound like the majority are aware that their practice of the Christian faith is unacceptable to the one they call their “Lord”? They offer him their ignorant excuses, but he rejects them outright. They will find it shocking!

Only those who do the deep study of God’s word honestly, will see the errors that Christendom passes off as truth…..and only God will open their eyes. (John 6:44; 65) Otherwise the other “god” has blinded them. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Those who love the lies will go down with them….deluded by God’s permission….

2 Thess 2:7-12….
”For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.” (NASB1995)

Won’t it be interesting to see who is still standing when the judgment has been passed….?
We will all stand before the same judge….after all….

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have asked you. You even admit it's a challenge. Go on then .....why the avoidance?

No avoidance….my beliefs are all over these boards…..I was going to give you the opportunity to tell us what you believe QT, since you seem reluctant to share much, but assume that we know what you believe…somehow.

The questions I put to you were about the Kingdom of God….what it is, how it “ comes” (Lord’s Prayer) what it accomplishes and why it was needed? I asked you first.

Can you tell me, as I don’t want to do a very long post and have you tell me I’m simply promoting JW theology. Give us the scriptural reasons for your reply….
Tell me about your theology? And why you think it is correct….too much to ask?

 

[Lizbeth]

With regard to this being a prison planet, please see the following Scriptural references:


Enoch 18:15 Then the angel said: This place, until the consummation of heaven and Earth will be the PRISON for the stars, and the host of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9).

Psalms 69:33 For the "I AM" heareth the poor, and despiseth not His prisoners (all of the people on this prison planet).

Psalms 102:20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner (everyone on this prison planet); to free (only) those (who repent) that He has sentenced to death (every sinner);

Psalms 142:7 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise Thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for Thou shalt deal bountifully with me.

Psalms 146:7 Which executeth Judgment for the oppressed: Which giveth food to the hungry. The "I AM" looseth the prisoners:

Ecclesiastes 4:14 For in this prison (planet earth) he cometh to reign; because of this [he that is] born in his kingdom becometh poor.

Isaiah 14:17 [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?

Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Isaiah 42:7 TO OPEN BLIND EYES, TO BRING OUT THE PRISONERS FROM THIS PRISON [planet], [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord "I AM" [is] upon me; because the "I AM" hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

Lamentations 3:31-34
3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
3:32 But though He cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.
3:33 For He doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
3:34 To crush under His feet all the prisoners of the earth,

Even in the letters of Paul, there are references to being prisoners of Christ. Why prisoners of Christ instead of just His servants or His studients?

Romans 16:7 Salute Andrew and John, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles,

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou a sharer of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

Philemon 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy [our] brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,

Philemon 1:9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech [thee], being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.


Everyone here on Earth is a "sinner", are they not?
Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


What is a sinner? Someone who sins, i.e. someone who breaks The Law that God gave us for own individual and collective benefit.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.

And what do we call someone who breaks The Law? A CRIMINAL.

Where are criminals sent, to protect the rest of civilized society while they the criminals, are being rehabilitated? TO A PRISON.


We live on a planet where every single soul is a CRIMINAL. Can it be more obvious that this a PRISON? Has not God made that fact crystal clear throughout Scripture?



Does anyone actually believe that God is unfair, or unjust, or that He would keep good people in prison/hell? Remember what Christ said to His own disciples?

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, BEING EVIL, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask Him?

Luke 9:54-56
9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did?
9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, YE KNOW NOT WHAT KIND OF SPIRIT YE ARE OF (Rev. 12:7-9; Matt. 8:22).
9:56 For the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.


It's understandable that all of this may be new to most people, because we'd like to believe we are "good" people, even though Jesus didn't even say that about himself (Matt. 19:17). But if someone is humble enough, they will understand that no one would be sent to this prison unless they did something awful enough to deserve to be cast out of heaven to the earth (Rev. 12:7-9).

Why else would we need to be saved unless we were already under a death sentence?

Enjoyed this study, thanks for sharing. I believe "earth" in scripture is also often used as a metaphor for the flesh, our fallen flesh nature...and receiving Christ frees us from the dominion (imprisonment) of that. (And we all have sinned and experienced this fall ourselves individually, usually as very young children at the point where we could have chosen God, but instead chose self. Why so many toddlers tend to be contrary. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.")

 

[quietthinker]

No avoidance….my beliefs are all over these boards…..I was going to give you the opportunity to tell us what you believe QT, since you seem reluctant to share much, but assume that we know what you believe…somehow.

The questions I put to you were about the Kingdom of God….what it is, how it “ comes” (Lord’s Prayer) what it accomplishes and why it was needed? I asked you first.

Can you tell me, as I don’t want to do a very long post and have you tell me I’m simply promoting JW theology. Give us the scriptural reasons for your reply….
Tell me about your theology? And why you think it is correct….too much to ask?

Plenty of avoidance AJ... but that's your consistent style when hard pressed to explain your claims. You either fudge or put it on the other person as if they are responsible for answering the question they asked of you.....then blame them when they don't take your bait.

 

[TheHC]

There is also, in your [Aunty Jane’s] many words, no plug for Jesus….

Huh? You apparently missed these….

“When the persecution of Christians was foretold, I remember Jesus telling his disciples to flee to the mountains when they saw Jerusalem “surrounded by encamped armies”. They must have wondered how that would be possible if those armies were already there, posing a threat....? (Luke 21:20-24)”

And…

“After giving them the signs to look for and telling them...(vs34-36)
“But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you 35  as a snare. For it will come upon all those dwelling on the face of the whole earth. 36  Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.” “

Whose words are these? Jesus’!

And…

“This was a far reaching prophesy that pertained to the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in the first century, but also describing the “time of the end” when Jesus was to return.....a time when all living humans will stand before “the son of man”....as their appointed judge.”

There’s two more.

And…

“But we know from the Bible account that the Romans finally laid siege to Jerusalem in 66CE (over 30 years into the future)…..and the threat was very real, but inexplicably, and for no apparent reason, they withdrew, and gave the Christians the opportunity to obey Jesus’ instructions. They fled to the mountains and settled in a little town called Pella. With nothing but the clothes on their backs and a few provisions, they started a new life and stayed in Pella despite the fact that Roman armies had not returned.....many must have wondered if Jesus was right in telling them to pull up stakes and leave the area with nothing, because it seemed as if the threat had been removed. And no doubt, after a couple of years, they may have wondered if it was all right to return to their homes and businesses. Some may have done so.....but in 70CE, without warning, the Romans came back with unfinished business on their minds, and besieged the city causing mass starvation and unimaginable heartbreak for all who were caught unawares in the city. Their city and Temple were destroyed as Jesus had foretold.....”not a stone left upon a stone”. (Matt 24:1-2) Many thousands of lives were lost.
But when Jesus told them what to do, it was without a timeframe. He never said how long it would take for his prophesy to be fulfilled, but he kept the reality of the kingdom right before them as a finish line that was in sight, but knowing all the while that “the end” was still 2000 human years into the future.”

There are several found in the excerpt above. Even referring to “Christians” is calling attention to Jesus Christ, since Christian (should) mean “follower of Christ.”

And…

“Jesus told us that “few” are on the road to life....so who are the “few”? Are these merely individuals who are scattered among those many denominations?”

Aunty Jane is again talking about Jesus.

How are you missing these?
Is your bias maybe blinding your recognition?

There’s a couple more, but this refutes the accusation.

 

[quietthinker]

Huh? You apparently missed these….

“When the persecution of Christians was foretold, I remember Jesus telling his disciples to flee to the mountains when they saw Jerusalem “surrounded by encamped armies”. They must have wondered how that would be possible if those armies were already there, posing a threat....? (Luke 21:20-24)”

And…

“After giving them the signs to look for and telling them...(vs34-36)
“But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you 35  as a snare. For it will come upon all those dwelling on the face of the whole earth. 36  Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.” “

Whose words are these? Jesus’!

And…

“This was a far reaching prophesy that pertained to the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in the first century, but also describing the “time of the end” when Jesus was to return.....a time when all living humans will stand before “the son of man”....as their appointed judge.”

There’s two more.

And…

“But we know from the Bible account that the Romans finally laid siege to Jerusalem in 66CE (over 30 years into the future)…..and the threat was very real, but inexplicably, and for no apparent reason, they withdrew, and gave the Christians the opportunity to obey Jesus’ instructions. They fled to the mountains and settled in a little town called Pella. With nothing but the clothes on their backs and a few provisions, they started a new life and stayed in Pella despite the fact that Roman armies had not returned.....many must have wondered if Jesus was right in telling them to pull up stakes and leave the area with nothing, because it seemed as if the threat had been removed. And no doubt, after a couple of years, they may have wondered if it was all right to return to their homes and businesses. Some may have done so.....but in 70CE, without warning, the Romans came back with unfinished business on their minds, and besieged the city causing mass starvation and unimaginable heartbreak for all who were caught unawares in the city. Their city and Temple were destroyed as Jesus had foretold.....”not a stone left upon a stone”. (Matt 24:1-2) Many thousands of lives were lost.
But when Jesus told them what to do, it was without a timeframe. He never said how long it would take for his prophesy to be fulfilled, but he kept the reality of the kingdom right before them as a finish line that was in sight, but knowing all the while that “the end” was still 2000 human years into the future.”

There are several found in the excerpt above. Even referring to “Christians” is calling attention to Jesus Christ, since Christian (should) mean “follower of Christ.”

And…

“Jesus told us that “few” are on the road to life....so who are the “few”? Are these merely individuals who are scattered among those many denominations?”

Aunty Jane is again talking about Jesus.

How are you missing these?
Is your bias maybe blinding your recognition?

There’s a couple more, but this refutes the accusation.

Quoting Jesus does not qualify as giving a PLUG for Jesus. Giving a plug refers to promoting. Those condemning Jesus at his trial quoted him but did not promote him.
.
We use this language regularly in our society. Promoting Jesus is giving the ascendency to him in all matters.

 

[Hobie]

Can you provide Scripture that mentions a Sabbath observance by those who predated the formation of the nation of Israel, to whom the Sabbath law was mandated?

And can you show me where the early Christians observed a Sabbath after the death of Christ?
All the first Christians were Jewish and naturally observed the Law until Christ died and cancelled it.

When the Jewish Christians wanted the gentile Christians to get circumcised and to follow the Law, a great deal of dissension arose over this.…so in order to restore peace, the apostles and elders met together to payerfully discuss the matter and to settle it.

Their conclusions were declared in a letter sent to the congregations…..under the guidance of the holy spirit they wrote….

”For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

The “necessay things” did not include a Sabbath observance or circumcision….gentiles were not under the law, only Jews were. I am not Jewish and neither are the majority of Christian today.
If one wishes to observe a Sabbath for their own personal reasons to set aside a day for spiritual reflection or worship…they are free to do so….but they are not free to impose that as a requirement for others when Jesus and the apostles never did.

Please Aunty, it is upon you to show where the first day, Sunday was made Holy and Sanctified and made for man as the day of worship, all those things the scripture has for the Sabbath, yet not for the first day.

 

[Hobie]

Readers be aware: A Jehovah Witness asks the question.

It matters not who asks, if one answers with truth, God has put it in our reach in His Word.

 

[Hobie]

Deep and meaningful. Not a response to any question asked, but just that….ooooh beware the Jehovah’s Witness who ask questions we cannot answer….

You know, I’ll bet the Pharisees said the same kind of thing to the Jews who found Jesus’ preaching to be somewhat more scripturally sound than the garbage they were teaching…..just sayin’…..
They had no answers either…

We as children of God are here to share His love and truth so that we may find each other in the kingdom of God, not to destroy each other for where we go to church. There will be many that we may be surprise to see and many we may be shocked not to find there...