Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[ProDeo]

It's its kryptonite, indeed, and those who adhere to its poison, who laid it as they please over scripture to please and massage their egos and their idols.

That's why folks like J., only understands scripture for the natural, carnal so-called scholarly level, if he can even do that, on a mental level from boastful men of this world, whom he honors and agrees with, as he says. I really want to know what he really agrees with and in whom.

Matt 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged.
Matt 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

 

[amigo de christo]

Matt 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged.
Matt 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Not saying you do this
but did you know that most people i see who quoate that line
are guilty of JUDGING GOD and HIS CHRIST .
pretty scary huh .
But darn true it is . THEY have used the judge not in ways IT WAS NEVER MEANT to be done .
And they are so fast to say JUDGE NOT to anyone who corrects sin and error within the church
and have judged THE WORDS of GOD and later the words of the apostels , AS HATE SPEECH . somoething DEAD WRONG .

 

[Aunty Jane]

Is Jesus our Brother?

Matt 25:31-40….
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32  All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33  And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 35  For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36  naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37  Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38  When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39  When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40  In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”

Jesus is said to have “brothers”, but never “sons”.
The Father is said to have “sons”, but never “brothers”.

There are four lots of persons mentioned in that passage…..Christ, the king and appointed judge….His Father, whose will he always carried out….Christ’s “brothers” (his chosen ones)….and those who do good deeds to his “brothers”…..those who support Christ’s “brothers” (his elect) are rewarded for doing so.

All who serve God in truth are “one” in spirit, unity and purpose, but Jesus and his superior Father are not “one God”. (John 17:22) True Christians must of necessity all agree on one truth. (1 Cor 1:10) Gods spirit does not divide his people…it unites them.

According to the apostles, only the Father is God (capital “G”). (1Cor 8:5-6)
The son is “divine” but not “deity”.…therefore appropriate to use “theos” with a small “g” to describe him.

The Father is “worshipped” but the son is not…..he is given due “obeisance” (reverence, honor) as “the son of God”. (same word)

There are so many things in the Scriptures that prove that the trinity is false and it scares them to think that it might be true, because what else have they been fed by an apostate religious system (foretold by Jesus and his apostles) that is so fragmented and divided that there can be no unity, and that also bears no resemblance to the truth that Jesus taught?

We are all showing Yahweh/Jehovah who is getting our worship. Only those who “know the only true God and the one he sent” will gain everlasting life…..those who worship false gods will not make it into the Kingdom. (John 17:3) “Babylon the great“ is a religious empire created by the devil to siphon off worship for himself….the trinity is the icing on his cake because he has created three gods and passed them off as Yahweh.

 

[amigo de christo]

Matt 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged.
Matt 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Ye have heard men say , OH we dont read all of the letters of the apostels , or revelation or etc
FOR we dont want to offend or run anyone off .
NOW GO TO and you find me in one letter that paul , peter , jude , james or john wrote
that ever once ended with
HEY whatever you do DONT READ THIS TO THE CHURCH , they cant understand it , ITS too hard ,
it might offend , we are here to love not offend . SHOW ME ONE PLACE .
I will show you in quite a few places where paul even said MAKE SURE YOU READ THIS TO ALL THE HOLY BRETHREN .
and what about revelation .
IT has been said by wise cunning professors and scholars
that we dont read revelation , IT MIGHT TRIGGER SOME , harm some ,
RATHER ODD , however that even at the beginning of that there BOOK
it says BLESSED IS HE WHO READS AND THEY WHO HEAR the things written in this book .
EVER GET THE FEELING men turned to physcology and bunk junk and lies of men . I DO .

 

[amigo de christo]

The wisdom of men HAVE DESTROYED their churches and left them in utter destruction .

 

[amigo de christo]

Matt 25:31-40….
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32  All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33  And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 35  For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36  naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37  Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38  When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39  When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40  In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”

Jesus is said to have “brothers”, but never “sons”.
The Father is said to have “sons”, but never “brothers”.

There are four lots of persons mentioned in that passage…..Christ, the king and appointed judge….His Father, whose will he always carried out….Christ’s “brothers” (his chosen ones)….and those who do good deeds to his “brothers”…..those who support Christ’s “brothers” (his elect) are rewarded for doing so.

All who serve God in truth are “one” in spirit, unity and purpose, but Jesus and his superior Father are not “one God”. (John 17:22) True Christians must of necessity all agree on one truth. (1 Cor 1:10) Gods spirit does not divide his people…it unites them.

According to the apostles, only the Father is God (capital “G”). (1Cor 8:5-6)
The son is “divine” but not “deity”.…therefore appropriate to use “theos” with a small “g” to describe him.

The Father is “worshipped” but the son is not…..he is given due “obeisance” (reverence, honor) as “the son of God”. (same word)

There are so many things in the Scriptures that prove that the trinity is false and it scares them to think that it might be true, because what else have they been fed by an apostate religious system (foretold by Jesus and his apostles) that is so fragmented and divided that there can be no unity, and that also bears no resemblance to the truth that Jesus taught?

We are all showing Yahweh/Jehovah who is getting our worship. Only those who “know the only true God and the one he sent” will gain everlasting life…..those who worship false gods will not make it into the Kingdom. (John 17:3) “Babylon the great“ is a religious empire created by the devil to siphon off worship for himself….the trinity is the icing on his cake because he has created three gods and passed them off as Yahweh.

So why is interfaith teaching that all religoins , all so called religions are okay and fine with GOD
and that all are coming to GOD . cause the last time i checked
THEM CHRIST DENYING RELIGOINS are CHRIST DENYING RELIGIONS . Unity with that, NEVER .
HE or she who tries to find common ground with the religoins of satan , AND ALL CHRIST DENYING RELIGOINS are of satan
is one trying to find common ground with satan . VERY grave , BUT VERY TRUE . enough with this judge not correct not stuff
ENOUGH with this false love that HAS done all to try and turn GOD and CHRIST INTO A MINISTIR OF SIN
and that DENIES THE SON . ENOUGH with false love that has come of the world .

 

[ProDeo]

Not saying you do this
but did you know that most people i see who quoate that line
are guilty of JUDGING GOD and HIS CHRIST .
pretty scary huh .
But darn true it is . THEY have used the judge not in ways IT WAS NEVER MEANT to be done .
And they are so fast to say JUDGE NOT to anyone who corrects sin and error within the church
and have judged THE WORDS of GOD and later the words of the apostels , AS HATE SPEECH . somoething DEAD WRONG .

I don't think the oneness issue is a salvation issue, I prefer to leave that to the external arbiter. I am also not Paul or John. In those times no one had a printed Bible and Gnostic teachings were rampant because of that, Paul and John had to be harsh on that and keep the Gospel pure.

 

[APAK]

Matt 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged.
Matt 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

PD, by the way, do you know the context in which/why this scripture written, for, to...why?

 

[APAK]

Intefaith is of anti christ and it do call JESUS A LIAR . why support that abomination at all .

So what types of people amigo are of the interfaith movement on this site IYO?

 

[face2face]

I don't think the oneness issue is a salvation issue, I prefer to leave that to the external arbiter. I am also not Paul or John. In those times no one had a printed Bible and Gnostic teachings were rampant because of that, Paul and John had to be harsh on that and keep the Gospel pure.

Let me put it to you this way:

Will anyone enter the Kingdom with wrong doctrine? Considering all of Paul's warnings, where he calls those who teach and accept false teachings "accursed," how can that be reconciled?

God didn’t change from the Old Testament to the New Testament, but what really set Christianity on a collision course with the Lord's return?

I hope you get to see.

F2F

 

[RLT63]

Let me put it to you this way:

Will anyone enter the Kingdom with wrong doctrine? Considering all of Paul's warnings, where he calls those who teach and accept false teachings "accursed," how can that be reconciled?

God didn’t change from the Old Testament to the New Testament, but what really set Christianity on a collision course with the Lord's return?

I hope you get to see.

F2F

So you have to be a theologian to get saved? Can’t have anything wrong, every detail must be perfect. Oops, theologians disagree, so being a theologian won’t save us. God help us find the right path, there are so many to choose from.
Too bad for people who were taught wrong through no fault of their own

 

[face2face]

So you have to be a theologian to get saved?

This is a knee jerk reaction - everthing I have shown in my posts are easily understood.

It's the main reason the Trinity must go!

Psalm 19:7, which says: "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple." This passage speaks to how God’s teachings have the power to guide and give wisdom, even to those who might be considered simple or inexperienced.

Can’t have anything wrong, every detail must be perfect.

"The Trinity corrupts the fundamental teachings of Christianity."

Oops, theologians disagree, so being a theologian won’t save us. God help us find the right path, there are so many to choose from.
Too bad for people who were taught wrong through no fault of their own

Ignorance is no excuse! Willing ignorance even worse.

If you approach the Bible with human teachings echoing in your mind, and Christ says at the judgment, 'I never knew you!' because you never took the time to truly know him—only repeating empty creeds—what can you expect?"

F2F

 

[RLT63]

This is a knee jerk reaction - everthing I have shown in my posts are easily understood.

It's the main reason the Trinity must go!

Psalm 19:7, which says: "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple." This passage speaks to how God’s teachings have the power to guide and give wisdom, even to those who might be considered simple or inexperienced.

"The Trinity corrupts the fundamental teachings of Christianity."

Ignorance is no excuse! Willing ignorance even worse.

If you approach the Bible with human teachings echoing in your mind, and Christ says at the judgment, 'I never knew you!' because you never took the time to truly know him—only repeating empty creeds—what can you expect?"

F2F

You’re just like JWs and other people who think they are the only ones who have it right.
The arrogance is not a good look
Do people like you and Wrangler have Churches you go to or do you just do your own thing?

 

[face2face]

You and I aren’t scholars, @APAK, and it seems we might have a difference of opinion on Wallace and my exegetical approach, but I’d like to hear your perspective.

Provide your exegesis of John and his high Christology of Christ Jesus, and perhaps, as you mentioned, we can engage in a meaningful discussion.

J.

@RLT63

Read Johann's post and ask yourself: was this how God, Jesus, and the Apostles intended the Word of God to be read and understood? 'Making wise the simple?'

This is why Johann and I disagree—because Johann reads Scripture through a lens of grammar, syntax, exegesis, and scholarly commentary, rather than understanding it in context. Now I can meet Johann on this level if I wanted but I know it would only be feeding the error within! Has Johann been able to provide perspective to this discussion at all? The answer is no!

Returning to your point:

What did the Pharisees do during Jesus' time?

Answer: They took away the key of knowledge from the common people!

What have the early church fathers done?

Answer: They took away the key of knowledge from the common people!

Johann is the result of a sincere believer who has been misled by both his teachers and his own understanding. He is one of millions, some of whom don't even read the Bible daily, yet have placed their salvation in the hands of others, just as Johann has.

This all will be shown to the Saints at his coming

F2F

 

[RLT63]

@RLT63

Read Johann's post and ask yourself: was this how God, Jesus, and the Apostles intended the Word of God to be read and understood? 'Making wise the simple?'

This is why Johann and I disagree—because Johann reads Scripture through a lens of grammar, syntax, exegesis, and scholarly commentary, rather than understanding it in context. Now I can meet Johann on this level if I wanted but I know it would only be feeding the error within! Has Johann been able to provide perspective to this discussion at all? The answer is no!

Returning to your point:

What did the Pharisees do during Jesus' time?

Answer: They took away the key of knowledge from the common people!

What have the early church fathers done?

Answer: They took away the key of knowledge from the common people!

Johann is the result of a sincere believer who has been misled by both his teachers and his own understanding. He is one of millions, some of whom don't even read the Bible daily, yet have placed their salvation in the hands of others, just as Johann has.

This all will be shown to the Saints at his coming

F2F

How do you know you are not the one who is misled?

 

[face2face]

You’re just like JWs and other people who think they are the only ones who have it right.

Well, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are closer to the truth than many other denominations, that's for sure! If they abandoned the belief that Michael the Archangel is Jesus and better understood God's covenant with Israel, they would be much closer to the truth. @Aunty Jane has a lot to learn on Genesis 1-3 but many of her posts are spot on!

The arrogance is not a good look

I agree. I’ve long had a deep confidence in the truths that have been revealed to me through the Word of God. While I try to justify it as boasting in the Lord, I know it can sometimes come across as arrogance. But please understand this: for 35 years, I’ve meditated on, studied, and prayed over the Word, asking it to reveal the truth to me. All I’ve ever sought is truth—nothing more, nothing less. I have found the Original Gospel, the one preached by the Apostle Peter and Paul, and I will share it until my last breath, and again when I am risen and granted life.

Do people like you and Wrangler have Churches you go to or do you just do your own thing?

I can't speak for Wrangler as I honestly don't know but I meet with people of like faith.

F2F

 

[face2face]

How do you know you are not the one who is misled?

Good question.

Let's take the topic of dualism/hypostatic union as an example.

If this were a legitimate doctrine, not only should I be able to find it in the Word of God, but I should also be able to find it consistently throughout the Scripture.

Since we can’t, it must be false teaching.

Let me give you a more challenging example.

In Romans 11 Paul states this text:

11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. 11:27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” Ro 11:26–27.

Now Paul has taken this quote from Isaiah 59

“A protector comes to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their rebellious deeds,” says the Lord.
Is 59:20.

These two verse's prove Christ is returning to Zion BUT Paul makes a subtle change to the quote:

What is it and why?

This is what I call contextual Bible study - from this RLT we will make observations which we can prove elsewhere.

See if you can work it out. @Aunty Jane doesnt understand this because she believes Jesus remains in Heaven but the Scripture is very clear the Lord is coming and remaining on earth.

Be interested in your thoughts

F2F

 

[RLT63]

Well, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are closer to the truth than many other denominations, that's for sure! If they abandoned the belief that Michael the Archangel is Jesus and better understood God's covenant with Israel, they would be much closer to the truth. @Aunty Jane has a lot to learn on Genesis 1-3 but many of her posts are spot on!

I agree. I’ve long had a deep confidence in the truths that have been revealed to me through the Word of God. While I try to justify it as boasting in the Lord, I know it can sometimes come across as arrogance. But please understand this: for 35 years, I’ve meditated on, studied, and prayed over the Word, asking it to reveal the truth to me. All I’ve ever sought is truth—nothing more, nothing less. I have found the Original Gospel, the one preached by the Apostle Peter and Paul, and I will share it until my last breath, and again when I am risen and granted life.

I can't speak for Wrangler as I honestly don't know but I meet with people of like faith.

F2F

Okay, you have a strong belief in your view, so does Aunty Jane and I think she has been studying for 50 years, and what you say about JWs reveals a lot about what you believe.
So you stand up for what you believe, I don’t blame you I just don’t agree with everything you believe.
I used to post things from anti JW sites and argue with them and I quit posting those things because I have friends who are JW and most of them grew up in that religion and were taught that since they were children and I wouldn’t use it against them.
When you attack the Trinity it’s just like posting from those JW trashing sites, there are many that will consider you a heretic.
I have found that I agree with Aunty Jane sometimes and have even asked her opinion sometimes and I agree with you sometimes, but our beliefs are different

 

[RLT63]

Good question.

Let's take the topic of dualism/hypostatic union as an example.

If this were a legitimate doctrine, not only should I be able to find it in the Word of God, but I should also be able to find it consistently throughout the Scripture.

Since we can’t, it must be false teaching.

Let me give you a more challenging example.

In Romans 11 Paul states this text:

11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. 11:27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” Ro 11:26–27.

Now Paul has taken this quote from Isaiah 59

“A protector comes to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their rebellious deeds,” says the Lord.
Is 59:20.

These two verse's prove Christ is returning to Zion BUT Paul makes a subtle change to the quote:

What is it and why?

This is what I call contextual Bible study - from this RLT we will make observations which we can prove elsewhere.

See if you can work it out. @Aunty Jane doesnt understand this because she believes Jesus remains in Heaven but the Scripture is very clear the Lord is coming and remaining on earth.

Be interested in your thoughts

F2F

Revelation 20, his kingdom will be on earth for 1,000 years, then Satan will be loosed, there will be a rebellion which Jesus will put down, after that there will be a new heaven and a new earth

 

[face2face]

Okay, you have a strong belief in your view, so does Aunty Jane and I think she has been studying for 50 years, and what you say about JWs reveals a lot about what you believe.

I've been teaching ex-JW's for many years which gives me additonal insights into their beliefs.

So you stand up for what you believe, I don’t blame you I just don’t agree with everything you believe.

As long as you can show your understanding from the Bible and you are convinced in it yourself that is fine with me. Everyone must be convinced in their own mind!

I used to post things from anti JW sites and argue with them and I quit posting those things because I have friends who are JW and most of them grew up in that religion and were taught that since they were children and I wouldn’t use it against them.

I'm not anti-JW RLT, I'm anti-ignorance...

When you attack the Trinity it’s just like posting from those JW trashing sites, there are many that will consider you a heretic.

The Trinity would be one of the most distructive doctrines on earth. It will be shown so when the Lord returns that I know for certain!

I have found that I agree with Aunty Jane sometimes and have even asked her opinion sometimes and I agree with you sometimes, but our beliefs are different

That's good—I'd encourage you to search these matters out for yourself. If your salvation is important to you, you will take what you can from all of us to develop the skills needed to open the Word of God so it can provide it's Light.

Pray, read, and study—approach Him with the confidence that He will give His wisdom to those who ask without doubting.

F2F