Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

words aint , but What GOD SPOKE is TRUTH . so sad that many sure seem to trod under foot
SOME and more and more OF HIS sayings all the time .
Folks holler we beleive in GOD we beleive in CHRIST and yet treat HIS own words as though they are hate speech .
PEOPLE treat both GOD and CHRIST as though they the devil and the devil as though HE and anti christ are GOD and CHRIST .
I guarantee ya that HAD JESUS come in the flesh one more time
and raised up and brought his own with him
and they all entered into the churches and onto websites
MOST PEOPLE WOULD LABEL THEM ALL HATERS , ANTI CHRISTS , devils as they embrace Satans version of todays god and his jesus .
WE BEEN DUPED and worse MANY SEEM TO LOVE THIS DECEPTOIN . interfaith is of anti christ .

Jesus the Messiah is both the Word, message and a Person-God in Flesh.

J.

 

[Wrangler]

Sie WORD became FLESH and DWELT amongst us . THATS JESUS .

The Bible does not say that God became flesh because that never happened. Did you re-read Deut 18:15-18, which was affirmed in John 1:45?

If the trinitarian take is correct, why does it contradict John's purpose statement of 20:31?

 

[Ritajanice]

The Bible does not say that God became flesh because that never happened. Did you re-read Deut 18:15-18, which was affirmed in John 1:45?

If the trinitarian take is correct, why does it contradict John's purpose statement of 20:31?

Just out of curiosity, what does the word became flesh mean?

Isn’t the word God?..I get confused to be honest, lol.

Didn’t Jesus speak out the word of God?

John 1:14-18New International Version (NIV) The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Johann]

The Bible does not say that God became flesh because that never happened. Did you re-read Deut 18:15-18, which was affirmed in John 1:45?

If the trinitarian take is correct, why does it contradict John's purpose statement of 20:31?

This is blasphemy.

Deuteronomy 18:15–18 and Its Fulfillment
Deuteronomy 18:15 (LXX):
Προφήτην ἐκ μέσου σου ἐκ τῶν ἀδελφῶν σου ὡς ἐμὲ ἀναστήσει σοι Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου· αὐτοῦ ἀκούσεσθε.
"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brethren; Him you shall hear."

This prophecy refers to a prophet like Moses who would come from Israel. The New Testament identifies Jesus as this fulfillment. However, being a prophet does not negate Jesus' divinity.
Moses was not divine, but Jesus, as the unique fulfillment, exceeds Moses in nature and mission (Hebrews 3:3-6).

2. John 1:45 and Its Implications
John 1:45 (Textus Receptus):
Εὑρίσκει Φίλιππος τὸν Ναθαναὴλ καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ· Ὃν ἔγραψε Μωϋσῆς ἐν τῷ νόμῳ, καὶ οἱ προφῆται, εὑρήκαμεν, Ἰησοῦν τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Ἰωσὴφ τὸν ἀπὸ Ναζαρέτ.
"Philip found Nathanael, and said unto him, We have found Him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

This verse identifies Jesus as the fulfillment of Moses’ prophecy, but it does not deny His divinity. John 1:1-14, in the same chapter, clarifies His divine nature.

The phrase "Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" reflects His human lineage, but John emphasizes that His true origin is divine.

3. John 1:1-14: "The Word Became Flesh"
John 1:1-3, 14 (Textus Receptus):

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος... Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

The syntax and grammar leave no doubt that "the Word" (ὁ λόγος) refers to Jesus.

Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος explicitly declares His divine nature.

σὰρξ ἐγένετο indicates a real and historical incarnation—God taking on human nature.

This refutes the assertion that "God did not become flesh." The Logos (God) entered into human history as flesh without ceasing to be God.

4. Other Supporting Passages

a. Philippians 2:6-7 (Textus Receptus):
Ὃς ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων, οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ, ἀλλ’ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος.
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men."

The phrase μορφῇ Θεοῦ ("form of God") affirms Jesus' preexistent divinity.

μορφὴν δούλου λαβών ("taking the form of a servant") and ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων ("in the likeness of men") describe His incarnation-becoming human.

b. Colossians 2:9 (Textus Receptus):
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς.
"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

This verse confirms the union of divine and human natures in Jesus.

While Deuteronomy 18:15-18 foretells a prophet like Moses, the New Testament reveals that Jesus is far greater-both fully God and fully man. John 1:1-14 and related passages explicitly teach that "the Word became flesh," affirming the Incarnation.

Therefore, the claim that "God did not become flesh" is contrary to the consistent testimony of Scripture.

Furthemore-since @Wrangler denies that God became flesh--


The virgin birth of Jesus is a foundational doctrine in Christian theology.

Old Testament Prophecies
1. Isaiah 7:14
Hebrew Text (MT):
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא לָכֶם אוֹת; הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ עִמָּנוּ אֵל.
Greek Text (LXX):
Διὰ τοῦτο δώσει κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἐμμανουήλ.
Translation:
"Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel."

עַלְמָה ("almah") is often debated, but the LXX translators rendered it παρθένος ("virgin"), indicating their understanding of the term.

Immanuel means "God with us," a foreshadowing of the Incarnation.
New Testament Fulfillments

2. Matthew 1:18-25
Textus Receptus:
Τοῦ δὲ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἡ γέννησις οὕτως ἦν... εὑρέθη ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχουσα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου... Καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτῆς τὸν πρωτότοκον.
Translation:
"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit... and [Joseph] did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son."

ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου ("of the Holy Spirit") indicates the miraculous conception.
The fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14 is explicitly stated in verses 22-23.

3. Luke 1:26-38
Textus Receptus:
Καὶ εἰσελθὼν ὁ ἄγγελος πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπε· Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ... Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον ἐπελεύσεται ἐπὶ σέ, καὶ δύναμις Ὑψίστου ἐπισκιάσει σοι.
Translation:
"Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph... The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you."

παρθένος ("virgin") is used to describe Mary, affirming her status.

Gabriel’s message explains the divine means of conception through the Holy Spirit.

Supporting Texts

4. Genesis 3:15
Hebrew Text (MT):
וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ; הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב.
Translation:
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."


5. Galatians 4:4
Textus Receptus:
Ὅτε δὲ ἦλθεν τὸ πλήρωμα τοῦ χρόνου, ἐξαπέστειλεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν Υἱὸν αὐτοῦ, γενόμενον ἐκ γυναικός, γενόμενον ὑπὸ νόμον.
Translation:
"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law."

γενόμενον ἐκ γυναικός ("born of a woman") emphasizes His human origin but omits mention of a human father.

6. John 1:14
Textus Receptus:
Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν.
Translation:
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

While not explicitly referencing the virgin birth, this highlights the Incarnation, which presupposes the miraculous conception described in Matthew and Luke.

Historical Affirmations
7. Mark 6:3
Textus Receptus:
Οὐχ οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τέκτων, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς Μαρίας;
Translation:
"Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary?"

The phrase "son of Mary" may hint at Jesus' unusual parentage, as it was customary to identify sons by their fathers.

8. Romans 1:3-4
Textus Receptus:
Περὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ, τοῦ γενομένου ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυὶδ κατὰ σάρκα... τοῦ ὁρισθέντος Υἱοῦ Θεοῦ ἐν δυνάμει.
Translation:
"Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power."

γενομένου ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυὶδ ("born of the seed of David") refers to His human lineage, while His divine sonship was confirmed by His resurrection.

The virgin birth is explicitly taught in Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18-25, and Luke 1:26-38, with indirect references in texts such as Genesis 3:15, Galatians 4:4, and John 1:14. Together, these passages affirm the unique and miraculous nature of Jesus' conception and birth.

We are in the last days.

Johann.

 

[APAK]

Allow me to remind us of something .
This goes out to all . i see massive amounts of triniatarians as well as others
WHO IF JESUS HIMSELF walked into their church and amongst them
and AS HE OFTEN DID began to CORRECT , boy o boy
most would scream away with you hater , you know neither GOD or love
you need JESUS dude . SAD BUT TRUE . NOW GO WEEP OVER IT cause i sure do .

Well all I can say is amigo that from what I've seen/experienced over the many years on this planet, concerning the Body of Christ, Trinitarians - Catholics and many Protestants do not live as a body of Christ. I see Biblical and other conservative Unitarians act as one Body in their lives, and we are small in number, relatively speaking. And maybe that is for a good reason. And we all love Jesus as the son of God and praise him accordingly without overstepping this glory and praise as to usurp God as the one and only God, his Father and ours.

 

[Johann]

Thats right God= the one true God gave Jesus that name. Jesus did not say-here me have this name, just like Rev 1:1-- God did not say here me have a revelation. And Jesus did not say, let me pray to myself so everyone thinks i am insane .

Incorrect.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

--and the Word. FS101, +Deu_32:42, By Hyperbaton, the subject, "the Word," being defined by the article which is prefixed to it, can be placed at the end of two of the clauses, and in each case we are to put the stress on "the Word." FS77, +Exo_3:19, Bengel notes that "when the predicate precedes the subject, there is an epitasis (an emphatic enlargement of the subject)" as also in Jhn_4:24 (New Testament Word Studies, vol. 1, p. 543). *Jhn_10:30-33; +**Jhn_20:28, +*Psa_45:6, +*Isa_7:14; +*Isa_9:6; Isa_40:9-11, Mat_1:23, *Rom_9:5, **Php_2:6 note. *1Ti_3:16, **Tit_2:13, *Heb_1:8-13, **2Pe_1:1 g. 1Jn_5:7; 1Jn_5:20.

was God. Not "a god," for the lack of the Greek article here does not make "God" indefinite, but determines which term ("Word" or "God") is to be the subject of the linking verb "was." Greek word order is somewhat more flexible than English, for in English statement sentences the predicate nominative always follows the linking verb. But the literal order of the Greek words here is "and God was the Word" (kai theos ēn o logos), the subject "Word" follows the verb, and the predicate nominative "God" precedes the verb, the reverse of English word order.

Since this clause uses a linking verb, both the subject and the predicate nominative are in the nominative case, so case endings do not serve to identify the subject in this construction; rather, the article "the" points out the subject of the clause. Greek uses the article "the" to accomplish what English does by word order. Thus, if John had placed the article "the" before "God," the meaning would be "God was the Word;" if he had placed the article "the" before both "Word" and "God," the meaning would be convertible or reversible: it would mean equally "God was the Word," and "The Word was God," but this John did not do.

By placing the article "the" before "Word," "Word" must be the subject of the linking verb "was," and the statement can only be rendered "the Word was God." Just as mistaken is the rendering "the Word was divine," for "God," lacking the article, is not thereby an adjective, or rendered qualitative when it precedes a linking verb followed by a noun which does have the article.

See the note on Mat_27:54 for scholarly documentation and an explanation of this construction known technically as the "anarthrous noun." Translators and translations which choose to render this phrase "a god" or "divine," are motivated by theological, not grammatical, considerations.

The phrase "a god" is particularly objectionable, because it makes Christ a lesser "god," which is polytheism, and contrary to the express declaration of Scripture elsewhere (Deu_32:39). For clearly if Christ is "a god," then he must be either a "true god" or a "false god." If "true," we assert polytheism; if "false," he is unworthy of our credence.

John’s high view of Christ expressed throughout his Gospel, climaxing in the testimony of Thomas, who addressed Christ as "my Lord and my God," is asserted from this opening statement, "the Word was God." There is no legitimate basis for understanding his declaration in any lesser sense than affirming the full deity of our Savior. **Jhn_5:18; +*Jhn_8:35; +*Jhn_8:58; +*Jhn_8:59; +*Jhn_10:30; +*Jhn_10:33; +*%+Jhn_10:34; Jhn_14:7; +**Jhn_20:28, +*Deu_32:39, +*Job_19:26, Isa_7:14; Isa_9:6; *Isa_43:10; **Isa_44:6, **Jer_23:5; **Jer_23:6, +*Mic_5:2, %Act_12:22; **Act_20:28, Rom_9:5, %*2Co_4:4, Eph_5:5 g. **Php_2:6 note. 2Th_1:12 g. 1Ti_3:16, **Tit_2:13 g. +*Heb_1:8, **2Pe_1:1 g. Rev_21:7.

J.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The difference is that the Father and the Holy Spirit aren't the Person Jesus. You say that when Jesus instructed His apostles to initiate new disciples, as in Christians, of all nations, that it was in His name (Jesus's), and that it was for Jesus, because Jesus is the teacher. Therefore, if Matt. 28:19 is about baptizing in the name of Jesus and for Jesus because He is the teacher, then Jesus should've and would've said, "baptize in the name of the Son, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you" (Matt. 28:19-20), correct?

I get that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three individual people. But I also know that the Holy Spirit would never contradict the Son, and the Son would never contradict the Father. For this reason, if Joe, or Mary, or Hank were baptized in the name of the Son, it is the same thing as being baptized in the name of all three.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Imo, his body was Born, knit together by God in his Mothers womb, God watched his Son grow in the womb of Mary...his Spirit was always there, with the Father from before the foundation of the world.

Maybe. We just don't have any evidence of that.

He was always chosen and predestined to become the Messiah, as his His Spirit was always in God...His birth came about by divine intervention, ..he was no ordinary man like us that’s for sure.

I agree. Well said.

He humbled himself...he never stopped doing the will of the Father, he came for a purpose and fulfilled that purpose without tarnish or blemish, spotless in his Father’s eyes, there is NO Name and NEVER will be, a name higher than the Name Of Jesus..only Jesus has been Glorified and reigns supreme ...all authority has been given to him by his Father, the Spirit Of God.....a Living ,Perfect,Pure, Holy Spirit...none like God!

Halleluia, Amen.

 

[Marvelloustime]

That not what bible says . sorry let me rephrase that . THAT is not what one reads in the scrips .
Sie WORD became FLESH and DWELT amongst us . THATS JESUS .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

this is well infiltrated all realms friend . the mother harlot leads it and her daughters instruct .
SO i say it again
If most people WITHIN CHRISTENDOM , whether trinitairian OR not ,
were to see JESUS walk into their church
and HE began to teach
THEY WOULD RUN HIM OFF saying DANG DUDE you a hater , you a devil , you dont know love
you dont know GOD , HEY BUDDIE you need our SIN ACCEPING UNBELIEF BROAD PATH ACCEPTING
THUMBS UP SMILEY JESUS . that is a fact . NOW GO WEEP OVER IT cause i sure do .

@amigo de christo

 

[Wrangler]

Just out of curiosity, what does the word became flesh mean?

Just a poetic way of saying God fulfilled the prophecy affirmed in John 1:45 of putting his words in the mouth of one of the people of Israel in Deut 18:15-18.
Moses continued, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you yourselves requested of the Lord your God when you were assembled at Mount Sinai.[a] You said, ‘Don’t let us hear the voice of the Lord our God anymore or see this blazing fire, for we will die.’

17 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘What they have said is right. 18 I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him.

It's nothing like "God will become incarnate." Nothing like from true God to true God. Rather from from among your fellow Israelites. This person, who God put his words in his mouth cannot be God or even ‘from God’ but ‘from among your fellow Israelites.’

John 1:45 affirms this: Philip went to look for Nathanael and told him, “We have found the very person Moses[a] and the prophets wrote about! His name is Jesus, the son of Joseph from Nazareth.”

 

[amigo de christo]

I truly know Yahshua in as much as most do that is humanly possible, in spirit and mind. Your words suggest you are far from him, revealing a strong sense of pride and the lack of humility. And you really do not understand scripture either, and that should sere your conscience some what.

When you say one needs Jesus, you really do not know what that really means, do you? You have not a real clue. It has to initiate from the heart and inside your spirit, with love and joy. So I would suggest you keep your words silent on the matter until you can reveal your love for Jesus by not just chanting the same canned words about him and then condemning others who do not agree with your canned Jesus religion as your idol, and usually ignore his God.

Well upon the examination of what i have seen in quite a few places ...............Beleive me they would accuse and attack
THE BIBLICAL VERSION of JESUS and say HEY man you need jesus you dont know love or God .
But if you find that hard to believe
i shall send you on a journey . Go to and walk into many churches .
Now at first glance the actions of the people will seem quite okay , as they are indeed very friendly and very welcoming to you .
Nothing wrong with that at all . But after the meets and greets
as you look around you will see an absence of something from the sermons .
You will hear some GOOD things like feeding the poor and to love one another .
But then get up and have the pastor read a few writings from paul
in the bible . The places where it speaks of WHO will not inherit the KINGDOM of GOD , of Heaven .
Now if you can even GET the preacher to read it , that would be a miracle in itself .
What you will rather hear is something like this . WE dont want folks to feel uncomfortable
we are very non judging , very accepting , etc .
Now if you were to go ahead and say hey everyone i just want to remind us about some good doctrine
that the apostels left us and YOU read it , Marvel not if all of a sudden NEITHER YOU nor that doctrine
WERE RECEIVED warmly at all and rather all of a sudden voices start to surround you and holler at you
HEY GOD is love , when it comes to the bible and LOVE we choose LOVE . AS THOUGH the words of GOD are now HATE .
YOU GO on this journey my friend . YOU SEE the abominations now being honored and overlooked by the church
and you see the TEETH of them ANYTIME scrips are brought to them to expose their evil . YEAH
THEY WOULD RUN JESUS OFF and His apostels . IF YOU all think i am grave
READ SOME BIBLE and witness the TRUE ONES at work .

 

[Johann]

Just a poetic way of saying God fulfilled the prophecy affirmed in John 1:45 of putting his words in the mouth of one of the people of Israel in Deut 18:15-18.
Moses continued, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you yourselves requested of the Lord your God when you were assembled at Mount Sinai.[a] You said, ‘Don’t let us hear the voice of the Lord our God anymore or see this blazing fire, for we will die.’

17 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘What they have said is right. 18 I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him.

It's nothing like "God will become incarnate." John 1:45 Philip went to look for Nathanael and told him, “We have found the very person Moses[a] and the prophets wrote about! His name is Jesus, the son of Joseph from Nazareth.”

Verses 15-19:

The text is a Messianic prophecy, Joh_1:21; Joh_1:25; Joh_1:45; Act_3:22; Act_7:37. Israel looked for this Prophet, but did not identify Him with Messiah. The New Testament apostles proclaimed Jesus as the fulfillment of this prophecy.
Israel at Horeb heard the voice of God speak from the midst of the fire, and they were terrified, Exo_20:19. They asked for a mediator to stand between them and God. This request was' granted, and Moses was that mediator. Today Jesus is the fulfillment of that which Moses typified: the Mediator between God and man, 1Ti_2:5; Heb_8:6; Heb_9:15; Heb_12:24.



The Lord thy God. Mrk_9:7.
raise up unto thee. +*Mat_11:3, Luk_7:19, Act_13:32; +*Act_26:6, Rom_3:21, Gal_3:19.
a Prophet. FS171E12, +Gen_14:22, T1886, **Deu_18:18; **Deu_18:19, Mat_21:11, Mrk_9:7, *Luk_7:16, Jhn_1:21; Jhn_1:25; +*Jhn_1:45; **Jhn_4:25; **Jhn_4:26; +*Jhn_5:39; +Jhn_6:14, *>Act_3:22; *>Act_3:23; *>Act_7:37, Heb_2:14-17.
midst. +*Deu_17:15, +Gen_49:10.
like unto me. *Deu_5:5; Deu_34:10, Luk_24:19; Luk_24:27; Luk_24:44, **Jhn_5:46, Act_13:32, *1Ti_2:5, Heb_1:1-2; *Heb_2:1-3; *Heb_3:2-6.
unto him. *Mat_17:5, Luk_9:35; *Luk_10:16, *Jhn_6:29; Jhn_7:38-39, *Heb_1:2; Heb_2:1-3, *1Jn_3:23.
hearken. Mat_11:15; Mat_17:5.

J.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I guess you missed -

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

I didn't miss this verse. I discussed these verses with @Johann earlier last week.

The Greek is ambiguous because the prepositions are subject to interpretation. Verse 1:16 is a good case in point. It begins with the prepositional phrase "ἐν αὐτῷ: in him", which my translation has rendered "by him." This is an odd rendering since the Greek Dative case of αὐτῷ shows "to whom" or "for whom" an action is done. In this instance, Paul means to suggest that God created everything with Jesus in view. He is the one who will stand to benefit directly from the creation because it was created for him, i.e. so that he will be the central and most supreme king of all creation.

Paul never suggested that Jesus created everything.

Jesus with the Father (Elohim) took part in creation and not only on earth as the text shows.

Again, the term "Elohim" contradicts the doctrine of the Trinity because it postulates that the Godhead is numerically one being, but the word "Elohim" is the plural form of God. This is a contradiction if we understand "Elohim" to be a plurality.

So again, who is Jesus?

Not a human, that's for sure, so who descended from heaven (John 3:13) and became (incarnated as) a human ?

The birth story and nativity are well documented in the New Testament. Given that reality, then what does John 3:13 mean?

John 3:11-15 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.​

The discussion clearly focuses on the beliefs of the Pharisees and what they choose to disregard. Jesus and his disciples share their firsthand experiences, but the Pharisees refuse to accept their testimony.

Next, Jesus mentions coming down from heaven and Moses. Don't fail to realize that Jesus mentions these two things together based on Moses' word to Israel concerning the Law.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.​

Moses emphasized an essential condition that must be fulfilled for anyone, including the Pharisees, to accept and believe the testimonies of Moses and Jesus: the proper inward disposition. He tells Israel that they do not need to send someone up to heaven to retrieve it for them and compel them to observe it. Why? Because the word has already come down from heaven. If the word of Moses and Jesus is not "in your mouth and in your heart," one will continually reject it. Only when the word is internalized will you truly observe it.

In this context, how did Moses' words come down from Heaven? The words were conveyed through a unique process in which Moses spoke, and God miraculously responded. Similarly, when Jesus and his disciples spoke, God reacted in a miraculous way to affirm their message. This is how Jesus is said to have "come down" from Heaven.

For further research, study Romans chapter 10.

 

[David in NJ]

Go and sit in your corner.

J.

Point to ponder #1 - To us who believe His every word, their unbelief is UNBELIEVEABLE !!!

Point to ponder is #2 - Their unbelief is "monotheistic atheism"

 

[amigo de christo]

The Bible does not say that God became flesh because that never happened. Did you re-read Deut 18:15-18, which was affirmed in John 1:45?

If the trinitarian take is correct, why does it contradict John's purpose statement of 20:31?

wrangler The bible DOES say that GOD was the WORD ,
so when the WORD became flesh , well YOU FIGURE IT OUT . GOD IS HIS WORD
HIS WORD became flesh . Repeat that truth a few thousand times till it sinks in real deep .
Now i understand the Godhead may not be understood , and specially at the first .
BUT what i do KNOW IS
we nor any man ought to TWIST THE BIBLE to fit what WE beleive . Rather just BELEIVE what is written
and understanding will COME in time .

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is an attempt for you to reconsider-

"In the beginning" This reflects Genesis 1:1 and is also used in 1 John 1:1 as a reference to the incarnation.

I disagree. Genesis 1:1 is the Title of the account, which is organized into seven subsections. Three of the subsections describe the origin of things; the next three describe the origin of domains. Each thing and domain came into being through a command spoken into existence. For instance, when God created light, he said, "Let there be light." and there was light. On the final day, God rested.

Reflecting on process of creation, that it came about according to a command of God, John writes, "In the beginning was the word . . ." The word isn't a person. The word is the command "Let there be."

It is possible that 1 John was a cover letter to the Gospel. Both deal with Gnosticism.

Contrary to popular belief, John was NOT dealing with Gnosticism or even Proto-Gnosticism. This assumption has lead many commentators into error.

 

[David in NJ]

Verses 15-19:

The text is a Messianic prophecy, Joh_1:21; Joh_1:25; Joh_1:45; Act_3:22; Act_7:37. Israel looked for this Prophet, but did not identify Him with Messiah. The New Testament apostles proclaimed Jesus as the fulfillment of this prophecy.
Israel at Horeb heard the voice of God speak from the midst of the fire, and they were terrified, Exo_20:19. They asked for a mediator to stand between them and God. This request was' granted, and Moses was that mediator. Today Jesus is the fulfillment of that which Moses typified: the Mediator between God and man, 1Ti_2:5; Heb_8:6; Heb_9:15; Heb_12:24.



The Lord thy God. Mrk_9:7.
raise up unto thee. +*Mat_11:3, Luk_7:19, Act_13:32; +*Act_26:6, Rom_3:21, Gal_3:19.
a Prophet. FS171E12, +Gen_14:22, T1886, **Deu_18:18; **Deu_18:19, Mat_21:11, Mrk_9:7, *Luk_7:16, Jhn_1:21; Jhn_1:25; +*Jhn_1:45; **Jhn_4:25; **Jhn_4:26; +*Jhn_5:39; +Jhn_6:14, *>Act_3:22; *>Act_3:23; *>Act_7:37, Heb_2:14-17.
midst. +*Deu_17:15, +Gen_49:10.
like unto me. *Deu_5:5; Deu_34:10, Luk_24:19; Luk_24:27; Luk_24:44, **Jhn_5:46, Act_13:32, *1Ti_2:5, Heb_1:1-2; *Heb_2:1-3; *Heb_3:2-6.
unto him. *Mat_17:5, Luk_9:35; *Luk_10:16, *Jhn_6:29; Jhn_7:38-39, *Heb_1:2; Heb_2:1-3, *1Jn_3:23.
hearken. Mat_11:15; Mat_17:5.

J.

And the WORD that was God is the SAME Mediator that Stood before Moses and the FATHER = John 5:37

And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

 

[David in NJ]

Thank you. Words ain’t people but an attribute of a person.

Where do words come from???

Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.”

So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

 

[amigo de christo]

Well all I can say is amigo that from what I've seen/experienced over the many years on this planet, concerning the Body of Christ, Trinitarians - Catholics and many Protestants do not live as a body of Christ. I see Biblical and other conservative Unitarians act as one Body in their lives, and we are small in number, relatively speaking. And maybe that is for a good reason. And we all love Jesus as the son of God and praise him accordingly without overstepping this glory and praise as to usurp God as the one and only God, his Father and ours.

While its true that so very many trinitarians now follow another spirit
And its hard to even find some that speak truth and live according to THE TRUTH , THE SPIRIT .
Bud i aint never found one WHO DENIES the DIETY of CHRIST who walks according to the SPIRIT .
Now we do have us a massive problem with the churches today . MANY do work as one
all right , the ONLY problem is the ONE they work UNDER and cliam and believe to be GOD and HIS LOVE
AINT GOD OR HIS LOVE . a nasty delusion cloaked under the word love has infiltrated most all of christendom .
It is merging all the false religoins as well as many , so very many , within Christendom
to be as one , to have common ground , to believe THE LIE that GOD is in all religons
and everyone who loveth is born of GOD . ONLY the problem is THEIR VERSION OF LOVETH
and everyone who loveth , SURE SEEMS TO ACCEPTS SIN and lies and has teeth and anger agaisnt THE TRUTH
that exposes thier sin and unbelief . SO that is known as A DELUISION . a strong one too
as it unites the LOST to be as one under what they all think IS GOD , IS LOVE and is loving . AND IT SURE
hates on the words of GOD , the WORD of GOD , the saints who wont conform . NOT lookinggood my friend . Not looking good at all .