Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

this is well infiltrated all realms friend . the mother harlot leads it and her daughters instruct .
SO i say it again
If most people WITHIN CHRISTENDOM , whether trinitairian OR not ,
were to see JESUS walk into their church
and HE began to teach
THEY WOULD RUN HIM OFF saying DANG DUDE you a hater , you a devil , you dont know love
you dont know GOD , HEY BUDDIE you need our SIN ACCEPING UNBELIEF BROAD PATH ACCEPTING
THUMBS UP SMILEY JESUS . that is a fact . NOW GO WEEP OVER IT cause i sure do .

It's well documented the RCC will treat him as the Anti-Christ for many many reasons as will most of Christendom

F2F

 

[amigo de christo]

Stop with childish game of playing toy soldiers and listen to scripture, unless it does not speak to you of course, and you follow what is popular.

So if you want to continue this immature charade, as I've noticed you have for a long time now, let's do some adult supervision basic English for understanding shall we.

1. In John 1:1b we read the word was with God. This means that whatever was the word was NOT God at all, right?
2. And in John 1:1c And the word thus cannot be God as in 1:1b we both read that the word was next/towards to God.

And besides, it is also grammatically wrong to use the word God here in 1:1c, as there is no definite article before theos. It also is incorrect as the JW wish to say, it is a god, because the word logos although male in gender in its language, is always a neuter or neutral gender when translated into English. It is an 'it.' If you cannot understand it I will explain it for you.

It thus means the divine 'quality' of God. So John 1:1c says the word was divine. And it is of God course. It's his core inner divine quality of expression, voice and communication along with his spirit with at least his creation, and through various creature, angels, prophets, Jesus and created things bushes, donkeys etc...

So moving on to John 1:14, that most are eager to meld to Jesus and are laser focused on, and based on what is already said, and by substituting this context here, we get that the divine word or voice of God, his own voice became a human being, a human voice and expression, and of course it is Jesus the Christ. And because the voice or expressions of God now came through a man, he then became the word of God, and he was glorious, and folks saw his miraculous deeds by his God's word and spirit..etc.

So, can you now understand that the word is not, and can never be a person, let alone Jesus. It is God's word that creates and speaks miracles into reality, inside through Jesus; human single spirit. And then this does not make Jesus God either. Else we must be on some really heavy drugs...

Allow me to remind us of something .
This goes out to all . i see massive amounts of triniatarians as well as others
WHO IF JESUS HIMSELF walked into their church and amongst them
and AS HE OFTEN DID began to CORRECT , boy o boy
most would scream away with you hater , you know neither GOD or love
you need JESUS dude . SAD BUT TRUE . NOW GO WEEP OVER IT cause i sure do .

 

[Wrangler]

words aint ,

Thank you. Words ain’t people but an attribute of a person.

 

[APAK]

Allow me to remind us of something .
This goes out to all . i see massive amounts of triniatarians as well as others
WHO IF JESUS HIMSELF walked into their church and amongst them
and AS HE OFTEN DID began to CORRECT , boy o boy
most would scream away with you hater , you know neither GOD or love
you need JESUS dude . SAD BUT TRUE . NOW GO WEEP OVER IT cause i sure do .

I truly know Yahshua in as much as most do that is humanly possible, in spirit and mind. Your words suggest you are far from him, revealing a strong sense of pride and the lack of humility. And you really do not understand scripture either, and that should sere your conscience some what.

When you say one needs Jesus, you really do not know what that really means, do you? You have not a real clue. It has to initiate from the heart and inside your spirit, with love and joy. So I would suggest you keep your words silent on the matter until you can reveal your love for Jesus by not just chanting the same canned words about him and then condemning others who do not agree with your canned Jesus religion as your idol, and usually ignore his God.

 

[Magdala]

What difference does it make?

The difference is that the Father and the Holy Spirit aren't the Person Jesus. You say that when Jesus instructed His apostles to initiate new disciples, as in Christians, of all nations, that it was in His name (Jesus's), and that it was for Jesus, because Jesus is the teacher. Therefore, if Matt. 28:19 is about baptizing in the name of Jesus and for Jesus because He is the teacher, then Jesus would've said, "baptize in the name of the Son" (Matt. 28:19), correct?

 

[David in NJ]

I have another train of thought for you think about. Is what you're reading into John 1 mostly church tradition? For almost 400 years, we have a read John 1 through the eyes of the Catholic Church. (reinforcing the Trinity). In the New Testament, “the Word” (Logos) happens to be of the masculine gender. Therefore, it's pronoun -"he" in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation. Did John write concerning “the word” that “he” was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning “the word” that “it” was in the beginning with God? As already stated, in the NT Greek the logos or word is masculine noun. It is okay in English to use “he” to refer back to his masculine noun if there is good contextual reason to do so. But is there good reason to make “the word” a “he” here?

It is a fact that all English translations from the Greek before the King James version of 1611 actually read this way: (notice Him and He are now “It”).

Tyndale 1534: Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with God. 3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
Cranmer 1539 John 1:1 IN the begynnynge was the worde and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it and without it, was made nothynge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was the lyght of men
Bishops 1568: Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,
Geneva 1587: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God. 2 This same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men.
And now our modern Concordant Literal Version: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the
word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

The word logos appears many, many more times in this very Gospel of John. And nowhere else do the translators capitalize it or use the masculine personal pronoun "he" to agree with it !

The rest of the New Testament is the same. Logos is variously translated as "statement" (Luke 20:20), “question" (Matt 21:24), "preaching" (1 Tim 5:17), "command" (Gal 5:14),"message" (Luke 4:32), "matter" (Acts 15:6), "reason" (Acts 10:29), so there is actually no reason to make John one say that "the Word" is the person Jesus himself, unless of course the translators are wanting to make a point to. In all cases logos is an “it.”

In the light of this background it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, a reason by which He brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who he is.

"The Word" for John is an “it” not a "he." On one occasion, Jesus is given the name "the word of God" and this is in Revelations 19:13. This name has been given to him after his resurrection and ascension, but we will not find it before his birth. It is not until we come to verse 14 of John's prologue that this logos becomes personal and becomes the son of God, Jesus. "And the Word became flesh." A great plan that God had in his heart from before the creation at last is fulfilled. Be very clear that it does not say that God became flesh.

There is even strong evidence suggesting that John himself reacted to those who were already misusing his gospel to mean that Jesus was himself the Word who had personally preexist the world. When later he wrote his introduction to 1 John, he clearly made the point that what was in the beginning was not a “who” he put it this way: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life…"

Logos - This word is translated in English as "Word". This word has an actual meaning which has been almost completely lost due to the Greek philosophical interpretation of John 1:1-3 & 14.
who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. (Rev 1:2)

"I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God." (Rev 20:4)

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God.

Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one (God) who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, as He is not the Logos! So who is the Logos? The very next verse tell us!

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He ( God) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Word of God in this verse means God's plan of salvation for us (NAB), i.e. the kingdom of God message. So what does "logos" mean?

Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea (New American Bible (footnote) & Vine’s Expository Dictionary).

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:
Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.

I will give you a brief paraphrase of John 1:1-3 using the definitions for "logos:"

"In the beginning was God's plan, will, or idea for our salvation. It was present in his mind, and God's plan or will possessed all the attributes of God."

The very Trinitarian Roman Catholic New American Bible has this comment on this verse:

"Lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification."

Predication - to affirm as a quality or attribute (Webster's Dictionary).

So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born. This verse is probably one of the biggest culprits in the creation of the trinity. The reason being that to someone educated in Greek philosophy such as the early church fathers of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, centuries, logos had an entirely different meaning. Tertullian who was responsible for much of the creation of the trinity was a Stoic lawyer. The Stoics defined "logos" as the "divine principle of life." Which is basically a definition of God. With this definition you are going to arrive at a completely different interpretation than what John intended. You will interpret it something like this:

"In the beginning was the divine principle of life, and the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Then, the divine principle of life became flesh."

With this definition you arrive at the conclusion that the divine principle of life, which is God, became flesh. Now you have God's essence in two places at once. The explanation for this obvious problem came in the form of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Then you have God's essence in flesh, so the description of Jesus becomes that he is fully God and fully man. These concepts come straight out of Greek philosophy. Greek philosophers believed that man was composed of flesh and a divine spark.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, He is not the Logos!


How do you not know these things?

“Monotheistic atheism” is the unbelief of those who oppose the Divinity of the only Son of God

 

[David in NJ]

To the trenches my friend .

“Monotheistic atheism” is the unbelief of those who oppose the Divinity of the only Son of God

 

[Keiw]

This has already been fully refuted.

J.

Recorded history cannot be refuted, only by those who falsely reason.

 

[Keiw]

Messiah came from the very CENTER of the FATHER as did His Holy Spirit.

Today, begin believing every word of God so that you can see more clearly.

Elohim/Plural said "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven,
and of those on earth,
and of those under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You rob God of His glory when you dishonor His Son who is the Lord
If you dishonor the SON you grieve(sin) the Holy Spirit
If you grieve the HOLY SPIRIT you dishonor Both the SON who is Lord and His FATHER who is God

For THEY are Echad Elohim

Thats right God= the one true God gave Jesus that name. Jesus did not say-here me have this name, just like Rev 1:1-- God did not say here me have a revelation. And Jesus did not say, let me pray to myself so everyone thinks i am insane .

 

[David in NJ]

Thats right God= the one true God gave Jesus that name. Jesus did not say-here me have this name, just like Rev 1:1-- God did not say here me have a revelation. And Jesus did not say, let me pray to myself so everyone thinks i am insane .

The angels know that Elohim is THREE

The demons/fallen angels know that Elohim is THREE

The Holy Scriptures tells us that Elohim is THREE

Why is that you do not know???

 

[Runningman]

The Trinitarian fails to see themselves as the Body of Christ and I'm guessing all them have never studied the marriage of the Lamb.
I'm confident though in time a few can be snatched from the fire.

F2F

I believe, generally speaking, they do believe that they are the church. There are no shortages of old doctrines and writings they can quote, but what they cannot truly lay claim to is the Bible. There are many affirmations of the Trinity or the deity of Jesus in writings, but none in the Bible. I believe this ultimately comes down to something you touched on in an earlier post that regards conventional reason versus philosophy and how ideas can be imposed on the Bible.

 

[Ritajanice]

The fact remains, Jesus was born. Therefore he didn't exist before that.

Imo, his body was Born, knit together by God in his Mothers womb, God watched his Son grow in the womb of Mary...his Spirit was always there, with the Father from before the foundation of the world.

He was always chosen and predestined to become the Messiah, as his His Spirit was always in God...His birth came about by divine intervention, ..he was no ordinary man like us that’s for sure.

He humbled himself...he never stopped doing the will of the Father, he came for a purpose and fulfilled that purpose without tarnish or blemish, spotless in his Father’s eyes, there is NO Name and NEVER will be, a name higher than the Name Of Jesus..only Jesus has been Glorified and reigns supreme ...all authority has been given to him by his Father, the Spirit Of God.....a Living ,Perfect,Pure, Holy Spirit...none like God!

 

[Ritajanice]

The Bible tells us that all who inhabit the spirit realm are “spirits”….so “the son of God“ was always “the son of God”……he was “with God” “in the beginning”.
Since God/Yahweh is an Eternal Being, he had no “beginning”.
The “beginning” the Bible speaks about is the beginning of God’s creation and Rev 3:14 says that Jesus is that “beginning”.

Jesus was the way back to the Father as in our spirit are reunited back to God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus...Jesus is the only way back to the Father.....

The man Jesus didn’t exist until his human birth….in heaven as God’s “firstborn” he had another name…and when he returned to heaven, God gave him yet another “new name”. (Rev 3:12) Each name that Jesus bears is a reflection of the role he has played to earn that name or title. After his successful mission on earth, God “exalted him” and gave him a new name. (Phil 2:7-9)

As the “firstborn” of God’s creations, this son has been with his Father longer than any other creature.

Jesus Spirit has always been in/ with the Spirit Of His Father God...as I explained.that is my belief..

The LDS church has some very unscriptural ideas about who we humans are, and where we came from. The Bible does not support any of them.

I am human, but I am also a spirit child of God, he is my Spirit Father...just like my earthly father was my biological Father.

Flesh gives birth to flesh.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

God gave humans the ability to reproduce their own kind, just like he did with the animals….conception is the moment when two lots of DNA combine to produce a new living being…..so before conception, we did not exist because we do not have a “soul” that pre-existed our conception….we became a “soul” with the breath of life, just like Adam. (Gen 2:7) The word “soul” literally means “a breather”.

I believe that the Born Again were already chosen and predestined to become regenerated/ Born Again before the foundation of the world......we were chosen all according to the purpose and plan of God, we are on earth to Glorify the Father, whom the Living witness does through us as we grow and mature in the Holy Spirit...we lose all direction of self, we are partakers Of the divine nature, being conformed into the image of Jesus, we become more and more like him , we represent him in spirit...of course this all takes to understand, what our role as a Born Again actually is.

Where was Adam told he would go if he disobeyed? To heaven or hell? NO! He was simply told that he would go back to where he came from (Gen 3:19)…back to the dust or the elements from which he was created. Similarly when we deliberately turn our back on God he will merely cancel our lives and send us back to where we came from…..before our conception, we didn’t exist.

I believe when Adam and Eve sinned, they lost the most precious gift that they had, fellowship with God, ....I know as a Born Again, if God tells me not to do something and he has done, by the power of his Spirit, ...I would sooner die than go against his will.

The greatest penalty for our own disobedience is simply everlasting death, which is the opposite of everlasting life……there is no torture or pain in a fiery hell, but simply the end of our existence…..why does it have to be more than that? God finds no pleasure in consciously punishing people eternally…what would be the point?

Thank you for your post, I see some of the word very differently to you Aunty Jane , nothing wrong in that, I think the problem arises when one ( not you) starts preaching that our biblical truth is the whole truth and nothing but the truth...that’s when I tend to ignore those posts...because a Born Again can only hear/ listen to the Holy Spirit as they are spirit children of the most high.

Regarding disobedience, how could I possibly have known as a non believer, having never read a Bible, only been taught about Jesus at school...that I was being disobedient to God?

Another question, how do we even know God, reading the Bible isn’t enough I’m afraid, much more to knowing God than reading the Bible, we know / communicate with God via his Spirit...that’s why we must be regenerated/ Born Again to fellowship with God, as God is a supernatural/ divine Living Spirit , he’s not the Bible...the Bible confirms all that the Spirit witnesses/ testifies to our spirit....

No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by Gods Living Witness and testimony, the Living Holy Spirit, he witnesses / testifies Gods truth in who I am to my spirit..a spirit child of God...without the indwelling Holy Spirit, I am Nothing and know Nothing.......by his grace and mercy I became his spirit child....I know 100% that God is my Spirit Father, as His Living Spirit witnesses/ testifies that truth to my spirit all day every day, for the past 33 years and counting.....

I can only know God in my spirit when it became Born Of The Spirit, that’s when I started my “ own spirit “ journey with the Lord God....I never knew that God exists...only by His Living testimony the Living Holy Spirit, who witnessed/ testified that truth to my heart/ spirit....we are definitely at different levels of spiritual understanding, would you agree?

I’m not declaring all that I say is truth...I’m explaining what I believe, that the Spirit has brought me to believe, we’re all seeking God out with our heart/ spirit.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Why is that you do not know???

Some folks heard some freaky preacher preach against accepting Jesus and
the Holy Ghost . . . . and apparently got a couple of good bumps

 

[Johann]

The lord Jesus created nothing!

Go and sit in your corner.

J.

 

[Johann]

If I may, since Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (Heb. 13:8) then how did he become something he was not before? I just ask this as food for thought. The way I see it is that Adam was the first man, but Jesus is also a man. I believe Jesus is still a man now.

Sure.

John 1:1-3 (Textus Receptus)
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

This verse indicates that the Word (identified as Jesus in John 1:14) existed "in the beginning," implying eternal existence.

Micah 5:2 (LXX)
Καὶ σὺ Βηθλεὲμ, οἶκος Ἐφραθά, μικρὸς εἶ τοῦ εἶναι ἐν χιλιάσιν Ἰούδα· ἐκ σοῦ μοι ἐξελεύσεται τοῦ εἶναι εἰς ἄρχοντα ἐν Ἰσραήλ, καὶ αἱ ἔξοδοι αὐτοῦ ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς, ἐξ ἡμερῶν αἰῶνος.
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."

This prophecy identifies the Messiah's origins as "from everlasting," emphasizing His eternal nature.

Colossians 1:16-17 (Textus Receptus)
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα... καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων, καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν.
"For by Him were all things created that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible... And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist."

Jesus is described as pre-existing all creation and sustaining all things, reinforcing the concept of His eternal existence.

Revelation 22:13 (Textus Receptus)
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος, ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Jesus declares Himself as the eternal One, transcending time and creation.

Hebrews 7:3 (Textus Receptus)
ἀπάτωρ, ἀμήτωρ, ἀγενεαλόγητος, μήτε ἀρχὴν ἡμερῶν μήτε ζωῆς τέλος ἔχων, ἀφωμοιωμένος δὲ τῷ Υἱῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ, μένει ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸ διηνεκές.
"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abides a priest continually."

Though referring to Melchizedek, the typology reflects the eternal nature of Christ as the ultimate High Priest.

John 8:58 (Textus Receptus)
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγώ εἰμι.
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Jesus claims the divine name "I AM," indicating His eternal self-existence, echoing Exodus 3:14.

These passages together form a robust biblical case for Jesus' eternal nature and lack of a beginning, aligning with the doctrine of His divinity.


In his commentary on Philippians 2:7, Kenneth S. Wuest discusses the concept of Jesus taking on human form, stating that He "became something He was not before." This refers to the doctrine of the Incarnation, where Jesus, who existed eternally as God, took on human nature to become fully human while remaining fully divine.

Wuest explains that the Greek term "μορφή" (morphē), translated as "form," denotes the essential nature or character of something. In Philippians 2:6-7, it is used to describe both the "form of God" and the "form of a servant," indicating that Jesus possessed the very nature of God and willingly took on the very nature of a servant.

By "becoming something He was not before," Wuest emphasizes that Jesus, without ceasing to be God, added humanity to His deity. This self-emptying, known as the "kenosis," is central to understanding the humility and sacrifice of Christ in the Incarnation.

This interpretation aligns with traditional Christian theology, which holds that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man, having two natures united in one person. The Incarnation is a foundational doctrine, underscoring the belief that Jesus entered human history to provide redemption for humanity.

JESUS: THE ETERNAL ALPHA AND OMEGA

In John’s Apocalypse, we find both God and the risen Christ declaring themselves to be the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End: “Behold, he is coming with the clo…

answeringislamblog.wordpress.com

JESUS: THE I AM HE INCARNATE

In this post I excerpt Dr. James R. White’s discussion of Jesus’ I AM statements. It is taken from his book The Forgotten Trinity: Recovering the Heart of Christian Belief, Revised & Updated, p…

answeringislamblog.wordpress.com

GOD GAVE JESUS LIFE?

The following excerpt is taken from the monumental work titled The Incarnate Christ and His Critics: A Biblical Defense, authored by Robert M. Bowman Jr. & J. Ed Komoszewski, published by Krege…

answeringislamblog.wordpress.com

J.

 

[ProDeo]

John is not saying that Jesus existed before creation.

I guess you missed -

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Jesus with the Father (Elohim) took part in creation and not only on earth as the text shows.

So again, who is Jesus?

Not a human, that's for sure, so who descended from heaven (John 3:13) and became (incarnated as) a human ?

 

[Johann]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.

John 1:1-3
Greek Text:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. Οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν. Πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν.

Translation:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made."

Syntax Analysis:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος:
The imperfect verb ἦν ("was") indicates continuous existence, not a point of origin.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ("In the beginning") parallels Genesis 1:1 and points to pre-existence before creation.

Πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο:

The preposition δι’ ("through") with the genitive αὐτοῦ ("Him") emphasizes Jesus as the agent of creation.

The aorist verb ἐγένετο ("were made") denotes completed action, implying creation was accomplished through Jesus.
καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ:

The conjunction καὶ links this clause as an emphasis on exclusivity, "and without Him."

2. Colossians 1:16-17
Greek Text:
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα... τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται· καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων, καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν.

Translation:
"For by Him all things were created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible... all things were created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist."

Syntax Analysis:

ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα:
The preposition ἐν ("in") with the dative αὐτῷ ("Him") suggests that creation originates in Jesus as the sphere or means of creation.

The aorist passive verb ἐκτίσθη ("were created") emphasizes God’s action through Christ.

τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται:

The preposition δι’ ("through") highlights Jesus as the agent.

εἰς αὐτὸν ("for Him") shows that creation’s ultimate purpose is for Christ.
καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν:

The perfect verb συνέστηκεν ("consist" or "hold together") points to Christ’s ongoing sustenance of creation.

3. Hebrews 1:2-3
Greek Text:
ἐπ’ ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν τούτων ἐλάλησεν ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ, ὃν ἔθηκεν κληρονόμον πάντων, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας· ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ...

Translation:
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person..."

Syntax Analysis:

δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας:

The preposition δι’ ("through") indicates Jesus as the means by which the τοὺς αἰῶνας ("ages" or "universe") were created.

The aorist active verb ἐποίησεν ("made") refers to the specific act of creation.
ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης:

The present participle ὢν ("being") highlights Jesus’ continual relationship to God’s glory.
ἀπαύγασμα ("radiance") and χαρακτὴρ ("exact imprint") affirm His divine essence, supporting His role as Creator.

4. 1 Corinthians 8:6
Greek Text:
ἀλλ’ ἡμῖν εἷς Θεὸς ὁ Πατήρ, ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν· καὶ εἷς Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ.

Translation:
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him."

Syntax Analysis:

δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ:

The preposition δι’ with the genitive οὗ indicates Jesus as the agent of creation.

The repetition of δι’ αὐτοῦ ("through Him") underscores His exclusive role in creation.

Summary of Syntax:
Across these passages, key syntactical elements include:

Prepositions (ἐν, δι’, εἰς): Highlighting Jesus as the sphere, agent, and purpose of creation.
Verbs (ἐκτίσθη, ἐποίησεν, συνέστηκεν): Denoting creation and sustenance as divine actions performed through Jesus.
Word Order: Placing Jesus centrally in the description of creation emphasizes His divine authority and role.

J.

 

[Johann]

The fact remains, Jesus was born. Therefore he didn't exist before that.

This is an attempt for you to reconsider-

"In the beginning" This reflects Genesis 1:1 and is also used in 1 John 1:1 as a reference to the incarnation. It is possible that 1 John was a cover letter to the Gospel. Both deal with Gnosticism. John 1:1-5 is an affirmation of Jesus Christ's divine pre-existence before creation (cf. John 1:15,30; 8:56-59; 16:28; 17:5,24; Phil. 2:6-7; Col. 1:17).

In the NT Jesus is described as

a new creation, not marred by the Fall (i.e., Gen. 3:15 fulfilled for mankind)
a new conquest (Promised Land)
a new exodus (fulfilled prophecy)
a new Moses (law giver)
a new Joshua (cf. Heb. 4:8)
a new water miracle (cf. Hebrews 3-4)
new manna (cf. John 6)
new temple
new priest
and so many more, especially in Hebrews.

SPECIAL TOPIC: ARCHĒ

SPECIAL TOPIC: FROM THE BEGINNING

"was" (thrice) This is an IMPERFECT TENSE (cf. John 1:1,2,4,10) which focuses on continual existence in past time. This TENSE is used to show the Logos' pre-existence (cf. John 8:57-58; 17:5,24; Col. 1:17). It is contrasted with the AORIST TENSES of John 1:3 (i.e., creation), 6 (i.e., John the Baptist, and 14 (i.e., the incarnation).

"the Word" The Greek term logos referred to a message, not just a single word. In this context it is a title which the Greeks used to describe "world reason" and the Hebrews as analogus with "Wisdom." John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message. See Contextual Insights, D.

"with God" "With" could be paraphrased "face to face." It depicts intimate fellowship. It also points toward the concept of one divine essence and three personal eternal manifestations. The NT asserts the paradox that Jesus is separate from the Father, but also that He is one with the Father.

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY

"the Word was God" This VERB is IMPERFECT TENSE as in John 1:1a. There is no ARTICLE (which identifies the SUBJECT, see F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions, p. 66) with Theos, but Theos is placed first in the Greek phrase for emphasis. This verse and John 1:18 are strong statements of the full Deity of the pre-existent Logos (cf. John 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1). Jesus is fully divine (i.e., the grammatical rule related to two NOUNS with a linking VERB and only one PRONOUN. One must assume the ARTICLE makes both defiite, "Sharp's Rule"), as well as fully human (cf. 1 John 4:1-3). He is not the same as God the Father, but He is the very same divine essence as the Father.

SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM

SPECIAL TOPIC: DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT

The NT asserts the full Deity of Jesus of Nazareth, but protects the distinct personhood of the Father. The one divine essence is emphasized in John 1:1; 5:18; 10:30,34-38; 14:9-10; and 20:28, while their distinct persons are emphasized in John 1:2,14,18; 5:19-23; 8:28; 10:25,29; 14:11,12,13,16.

SPECIAL TOPIC: FATHERHOOD OF GOD

1:2 This is parallel to John 1:1 and emphasizes again the shocking truth in light of monotheism (cf. Deut. 6:4-6) that Jesus, who was born around 6-5 B.C., has always been with the Father and, therefore, is Deity.

1:3 "All things came into being through Him" The Logos was the Father's agent of creation of both the visible and the invisible (cf. John 1:10; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2). This is similar to the role wisdom plays in Ps. 104:24 and Prov. 3:19; 8:12-23 (in Hebrews "wisdom" is a FEMININE GENDER NOUN).

"apart from Him nothing came into being" This is a refutation of the Gnostic false teaching of angelic aeons between the high, good god and a lesser spiritual being that formed, pre-existent matter (see Contextual Insights, D).

1:4 "in Him was life" This phrase is emphasizing that "life" itself comes from

only the Father
He gave it to the Son, the Word
only believers have eternal life
John uses the term, zoē, to refer to resurrection life, eternal life, God's life (cf. John 1:4; 3:15,36; 4:14,36; 5:24,26,29,39,40; 6:27,33,35,40,47,48,51,53, 54,63,65, etc). The other Greek term for "life," bios, was used for earthly, biological life (cf. 1 John 2:16).

John 1

J.

 

[Johann]

I have another train of thought for you think about. Is what you're reading into John 1 mostly church tradition? For almost 400 years, we have a read John 1 through the eyes of the Catholic Church. (reinforcing the Trinity). In the New Testament, “the Word” (Logos) happens to be of the masculine gender. Therefore, it's pronoun -"he" in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation. Did John write concerning “the word” that “he” was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning “the word” that “it” was in the beginning with God? As already stated, in the NT Greek the logos or word is masculine noun. It is okay in English to use “he” to refer back to his masculine noun if there is good contextual reason to do so. But is there good reason to make “the word” a “he” here?

It is a fact that all English translations from the Greek before the King James version of 1611 actually read this way: (notice Him and He are now “It”).

Tyndale 1534: Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with God. 3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
Cranmer 1539 John 1:1 IN the begynnynge was the worde and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it and without it, was made nothynge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was the lyght of men
Bishops 1568: Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,
Geneva 1587: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God. 2 This same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men.
And now our modern Concordant Literal Version: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the
word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

The word logos appears many, many more times in this very Gospel of John. And nowhere else do the translators capitalize it or use the masculine personal pronoun "he" to agree with it !

The rest of the New Testament is the same. Logos is variously translated as "statement" (Luke 20:20), “question" (Matt 21:24), "preaching" (1 Tim 5:17), "command" (Gal 5:14),"message" (Luke 4:32), "matter" (Acts 15:6), "reason" (Acts 10:29), so there is actually no reason to make John one say that "the Word" is the person Jesus himself, unless of course the translators are wanting to make a point to. In all cases logos is an “it.”

In the light of this background it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, a reason by which He brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who he is.

"The Word" for John is an “it” not a "he." On one occasion, Jesus is given the name "the word of God" and this is in Revelations 19:13. This name has been given to him after his resurrection and ascension, but we will not find it before his birth. It is not until we come to verse 14 of John's prologue that this logos becomes personal and becomes the son of God, Jesus. "And the Word became flesh." A great plan that God had in his heart from before the creation at last is fulfilled. Be very clear that it does not say that God became flesh.

There is even strong evidence suggesting that John himself reacted to those who were already misusing his gospel to mean that Jesus was himself the Word who had personally preexist the world. When later he wrote his introduction to 1 John, he clearly made the point that what was in the beginning was not a “who” he put it this way: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life…"

Logos - This word is translated in English as "Word". This word has an actual meaning which has been almost completely lost due to the Greek philosophical interpretation of John 1:1-3 & 14.
who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. (Rev 1:2)

"I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God." (Rev 20:4)

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God.

Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one (God) who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, as He is not the Logos! So who is the Logos? The very next verse tell us!

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He ( God) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Word of God in this verse means God's plan of salvation for us (NAB), i.e. the kingdom of God message. So what does "logos" mean?

Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea (New American Bible (footnote) & Vine’s Expository Dictionary).

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:
Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.

I will give you a brief paraphrase of John 1:1-3 using the definitions for "logos:"

"In the beginning was God's plan, will, or idea for our salvation. It was present in his mind, and God's plan or will possessed all the attributes of God."

The very Trinitarian Roman Catholic New American Bible has this comment on this verse:

"Lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification."

Predication - to affirm as a quality or attribute (Webster's Dictionary).

So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born. This verse is probably one of the biggest culprits in the creation of the trinity. The reason being that to someone educated in Greek philosophy such as the early church fathers of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, centuries, logos had an entirely different meaning. Tertullian who was responsible for much of the creation of the trinity was a Stoic lawyer. The Stoics defined "logos" as the "divine principle of life." Which is basically a definition of God. With this definition you are going to arrive at a completely different interpretation than what John intended. You will interpret it something like this:

"In the beginning was the divine principle of life, and the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Then, the divine principle of life became flesh."

With this definition you arrive at the conclusion that the divine principle of life, which is God, became flesh. Now you have God's essence in two places at once. The explanation for this obvious problem came in the form of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Then you have God's essence in flesh, so the description of Jesus becomes that he is fully God and fully man. These concepts come straight out of Greek philosophy. Greek philosophers believed that man was composed of flesh and a divine spark.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, He is not the Logos!


How do you not know these things?

Arianism rampant on this Forum.

J.