Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

I don't agree with your premise that things don't appear as they exist. The idea of consubstantiation came from the same Catholic/Platonic syncretism that produced the doctrine of "The real presence." It's all "hocus pocus."

Quite frankly, I don’t care if you disagree. You take an excerpt from my post out of context-just as you do with Scripture-simply to share your opinion, which I don’t need.

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

Quite frankly, I don’t care if you disagree. You take an excerpt from my post out of context-just as you do with Scripture-simply to share your opinion, which I don’t need.

J.

We did this to ourselves johann . please allow me to explain . THOUGH i think you already KNOW this my friend .
Every one feels so darn entilted to his or her opinoin .BUT ITS the fault of many denominations .
You see , years ago they DID THIS . the emphasis began to be put upon humanity , on our own thoughts
on our own opinions on what or how we see and interpret the scrips .
THIS was done in what they thought was a kind and welcoming and accepting kind of mindset .
BUT friend it was a disaster in the making .
Everyone became so concerned with DOING all to make everyone FEEL welcome and accepted
that they went about trying to include every thought and opinion . BIG MISTAKE .
an example of this could be seen long ago . i SEEN it myself
before i was even a beleiver . One night way back in the early part on 1999
me and a girl had broken up .
She was going to a certain church so i decided to show up so we could talk .
Anyway as i waited on her i was seated in a small group .
A man was leading this group . HE had asked a question about the scripture he had just read .
Then asked each one , one by one . The first said one thing , the second said another
each one said something . EVERY TIME they did the leader said , GOOD JOB
i didnt see it that way . THE PROBLEM was , I LISTEND to them , NOT only did some contradict
each others answers , HECK it wasnt even truth that some answered back with .
THE EMPHASIS was on making them feel welcome . but little did they know
this was a recipe for disaster .

 

[CadyandZoe]

and if you deny One , you deny them ALL

Not necessarily. The Trinity Doctrine says that God is numerically one being, while at the same time, three distinct persons. The Bible doesn't teach this doctrine. It came about as a way to syncretize Roman polytheism with Jewish monotheism.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the image of God, which means that he is representationally equal to God. One can believe that Jesus is one with the Father in his teaching, faithfulness, justice, mercy, love, wisdom, holiness, and other qualities, without believing that Jesus is also omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, immutable, self-sustaining, self-existent, and eternal.

For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.
This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.

You have the wrong idea.
The discussion at hand revolves around the qualifications necessary for someone to be recognized as the messiah. Throughout history, there have been various interpretations of what this entails. Some scholars and religious leaders contended that the messiah would manifest as either an angelic being or a theophany, a divine appearance of God in a tangible form. According to their perspective, Jesus' humanity—his embodiment as a man—rendered him ineligible for messiahship, as they believed the true messiah must transcend human limitations.

In contrast, the apostle John presents a different viewpoint in his writings. He asserts that the long-standing prophecies indicate that the messiah would indeed be fully human. John emphasizes the importance of recognizing Jesus as the Messiah and firmly argues against any notion that dismisses his humanity as a disqualifying factor. He goes so far as to label any individual who denies the messianic identity of Jesus—on the grounds of his being a man—as Antichrist.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Quite frankly, I don’t care if you disagree.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't say anything. Isn't it more likely that you have no response to my argument?

You take an excerpt from my post out of context-just as you do with Scripture-simply to share your opinion, which I don’t need.

Doesn't that define a message board?

 

[ProDeo]

As you correctly point out, Jesus is speaking about himself. When was Jesus born? He was born in Bethlehem at the turn of the first century AD. We conclude that Jesus wasn't falsely claiming that he existed before the world existed. He is truthfully claiming that the Father's plan to glorify Jesus was decided before the earth existed.

John - 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I [Jesus] had with you [Father] before the world existed.

Excellent start, Jesus existed before humans were created, can we conclude Jesus was not a human, thus a spiritual Being?

IOW, who was He before creation?

 

[amigo de christo]

John - 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I [Jesus] had with you [Father] before the world existed.
Excellent start, Jesus existed before humans were created, can we conclude Jesus was not a human, thus a spiritual Being?

IOW, who was He before creation?

exactly what the scrips say . IN the Beginning was THE WORD and the WORD was with GOD
and GOD is the Word . All things had been created by HIM . that is WHO JESUS was and IS .

 

[ProDeo]

Do you think as god he then performed this act? Scripture does not lie

Let's not forget the passage we are talking about -

Hebr 9:12 - he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

You said based on this verse Jesus needed redemption.

I disagree, the Hebrew author talked about our redemption because we are sinners and Jesus is not.

And so my answer, granted, a bit cryptic - So Jesus as ONLY HUMAN had to earn his redemption ????

As we know we are saved by grace alone, there is nothing to earn.

Jesus (sinless) did not needed redemption, He secured our redemption as 9:12 says.

 

[amigo de christo]

Let's not forget the passage we are talking about -

Hebr 9:12 - he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

You said based on this verse Jesus needed redemption.

I disagree, the Hebrew author talked about our redemption because we are sinners and Jesus is not.

And so my answer, granted, a bit cryptic - So Jesus as ONLY HUMAN had to earn his redemption ????

As we know we are saved by grace alone, there is nothing to earn.

Jesus (sinless) did not needed redemption, He secured our redemption as 9:12 says.

YES indeed . GOD didnt need to come to prove his own redemption .
JESUS came FOR OUR sakes . SPOT ON RIGHT .

 

[ProDeo]

Yes. Paul argues that Jesus' obedience qualified him to be risen from the dead and given all authority

Philippians 2:8-9 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name . . .

Note the emphasis on his being a man and that he was qualified to receive a name above every other name because of his obedience.

Shall we quote in context ?

Filipp 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
Filipp 2:7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
Filipp 2:8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death--death even of a cross,
Filipp 2:9 wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that is above every name,
Filipp 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow--of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth--

 

[Johann]

Let's not forget the passage we are talking about -

Hebr 9:12 - he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

You said based on this verse Jesus needed redemption.

I disagree, the Hebrew author talked about our redemption because we are sinners and Jesus is not.

And so my answer, granted, a bit cryptic - So Jesus as ONLY HUMAN had to earn his redemption ????

As we know we are saved by grace alone, there is nothing to earn.

Jesus (sinless) did not needed redemption, He secured our redemption as 9:12 says.

Love this brother-and your patience.

J.

 

[CadyandZoe]

John - 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I [Jesus] had with you [Father] before the world existed.

Excellent start, Jesus existed before humans were created, can we conclude Jesus was not a human, thus a spiritual Being?

IOW, who was He before creation?

John is not saying that Jesus existed before creation.

 

[Johann]

John is not saying that Jesus existed before creation.

Yes he did.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

John is not saying that Jesus existed before creation.

Would you say that Jesus Spirit was with God before the foundation of the world?

Where did the Spirit Of Jesus come from?

Was it not always in / with the Father?

Short commentary.

Was Jesus a spirit before he came to earth?
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), the largest denomination in the Latter Day Saint movement, believe that Jesus Christ (and all people) was a pre-existent spirit who then gained a physical body at birth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Shall we quote in context ?

Filipp 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
Filipp 2:7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
Filipp 2:8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death--death even of a cross,
Filipp 2:9 wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that is above every name,
Filipp 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow--of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth--

Paul's discussion does not concern Jesus' quiddity. In this context, the distinction between God and man is a matter of status. The term "god" refers to royalty; the term "man" refers to a commoner. Although Jesus came as a king, he behaved as a servant, a commoner.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes he did.

J.

Really, because the Bible says that Jesus was born in the first century.

 

[Ritajanice]

he behaved as a servant, a commoner

In what way did Jesus the Son Of God ,behave as a commoner, ?

I would agree that he came to serve his Father.

He came to do the will of his Father.

 

[Johann]

Really, because the Bible says that Jesus was born in the first century.

Actually, the grammar and syntax indicate otherwise-that Yeshua did preexist.

J.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In what way did Jesus the Son Of God ,behave as a commoner, ?

According to Paul, Jesus acted with humility and considered others more valuable than himself. He is known as the suffering servant, and he taught his disciples to serve others. He told them that the greatest among them would be the servant of all. Mark 9:35, John 13.

The Gospels describe Jesus' behavior as one who was humble and unassuming. He always walked and never rode an animal except once. He was kind, generous, forgiving, patient, and helpful.

I would agree that he came to serve his Father.

He came to do the will of his Father.

I agree. He did that too.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Actually, the grammar and syntax indicate otherwise-that Yeshua did preexist.

J.

So Jesus wasn't born?

 

[CadyandZoe]

exactly what the scrips say . IN the Beginning was THE WORD and the WORD was with GOD
and GOD is the Word . All things had been created by HIM . that is WHO JESUS was and IS .

When did the Word become Jesus?