Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks for admitting Messiah preexisted. Unless you want to divorce Jesus with His glory.

That's my point. Jesus isn't saying that he existed, in any form, prior to his birth. Jesus is saying that the Father planned to glorify him before the earth was formed.

You can disagree with my interpretation, but you can't say that the text necessarily rules it out.

 

[Johann]

That's my point. Jesus isn't saying that he existed, in any form, prior to his birth. Jesus is saying that the Father planned to glorify him before the earth was formed.

You can disagree with my interpretation, but you can't say that the text necessarily rules it out.

Scripture contains many references explicitly pointing to the preexistence of the Messiah, and I have demonstrated this repeatedly from the Scriptures. If you disagree with Scripture, that is not my concern.

And the doxa of Messiah was His own with the Father.

First, In His ordinary contact with people here below, He appeared not to be what He was, and appeared to be what He was not. Instead of its being impossible for any person, at any moment, to doubt that He was the Everlasting Son of the Father in human flesh, it seemed hardly possible to believe it-so entirely like other men was He in His appearance anal ordinary movements, and often even more helpless than many other men.

Secondly, That this was a shrouding of His proper glory, and a continual and sublime exercise of Self-restraint, is evident not only from what we know of His proper glory and dignity and freedom, and what He once and again said of it, but from the occasional breakings forth of that glory and majesty of His-as if to let men see for a moment Whom they had in the midst of them, and what a carriage He might have assumed if it had been but fitting that His whole glorious Self should be habitually displayed before them.

Well, He submitted during all the days of His flesh, for the high ends on which He came here, thus to restrain Himself; and so "the world knew Him not" and "received Him not." But it could not be that He should be contented with this abnormal condition; it could not be but that He should desire its cessation and feel it to be such joy as He told His disciples, scarcely a brief half hour before this, they should rejoice in on His account (see the note at Joh_14:28).

But the wonder of this restoration of the glory which He had with the Father before all time is, that it was to be in our nature. His divine glory as the Only begotten of the Father was never lost, and could not be parted with; it was inalienable and essential.

But during the days of His flesh it was shrouded from human view; it was not externally manifested; in respect of it, He restrained Himself. And what He now asks is, that this veil might be removed from Him as the Incarnate One, and that as the risen and ascended Representative of Humanity-the Second Adam-He might be invested and manifested in the glory which He had with the Father before the world was. Transporting thought!


With thine own self (para seautōi). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. Jhn_1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (Jhn_1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (hēi eichon, imperfect active of echō, I used to have, with attraction of case of hēn to hēi because of doxēi), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” (cf. Jhn_17:24).

It is small wonder that those who deny or reject the deity of Jesus Christ have trouble with the Johannine authorship of this book and with the genuineness of these words.

But even Harnack admits that the words here and in Jhn_17:24 are “undoubtedly the reflection of the certainty with which Jesus himself spoke” (What Is Christianity, Engl. Tr., p. 132). But Paul, as clearly as John, believes in the actual pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ (Php_2:5-11).

@ProDeo be careful my brother.

J.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where ?

John - 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I [Jesus] had with you [Father] before the world existed.

As you correctly point out, Jesus is speaking about himself. When was Jesus born? He was born in Bethlehem at the turn of the first century AD. We conclude that Jesus wasn't falsely claiming that he existed before the world existed. He is truthfully claiming that the Father's plan to glorify Jesus was decided before the earth existed.

We also pay attention to the immediate context to understand what he means.

John 17: 4-5 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

His petition is based on Jesus glorifying the Father while on earth. In this context, Jesus is asking the Father to glorify him. This indicates that Jesus is not requesting to be made a deity again, as he does not claim to have deified the Father while on earth. Here, the term "glory" means to "shine a light on someone in order to bring honor to them."

The foundation of His petition lies in the way Jesus honored and glorified the Father throughout His earthly ministry. In this specific context, Jesus is making a heartfelt request to the Father to glorify Him as well. This request is significant because it reveals that Jesus is not asking to be reinstated as a deity, nor does He assert that He made the Father into a deity during His time on earth.

Instead, His plea emphasizes a mutual glorification that reflects the relationship between them. When Jesus speaks of "glory," He is referring to the act of illuminating someone's virtues and character in order to bring honor and recognition to them. This understanding of glory underscores Jesus’s role in revealing the divine nature of the Father to humanity and invites a closer examination of their profound connection.

In other words, Jesus is saying that the Father intended to being honor to his son from the beginning of time.

 

[APAK]

So Jesus as ONLY HUMAN had to earn his redemption ????

Do you think as god he then performed this act? Scripture does not lie

 

[CadyandZoe]

So Jesus as ONLY HUMAN had to earn his redemption ????

Yes. Paul argues that Jesus' obedience qualified him to be risen from the dead and given all authority

Philippians 2:8-9 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name . . .

Note the emphasis on his being a man and that he was qualified to receive a name above every other name because of his obedience.

 

[Keiw]

Please read the WHOLE Bible before you come to conclusions on just a few scriptures.

Did you read and BELIEVE this TRUTH - John chapter 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,
full of grace and truth.

What about this Declaration = Psalm 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD;
He inclined to me and heard my cry.
He lifted me up from the pit of despair,
out of the miry clay;
He set my feet upon a rock,
and made my footsteps firm.
He put a new song in my mouth,
a hymn of praise to our God.
Many will see and fear
and put their trust in the LORD.

You MUST pray, read, pray, study, pray and wait on the LORD for understanding

I probably already told you, in Greek it does not call the Logos capitol G God. Its why there have many translations by Greek scholars in history with a god at John 1:1. You best recheck.

 

[Johann]

I probably already told you, in Greek it does not call the Logos capitol G God. Its why there have many translations by Greek scholars in history with a god at John 1:1. You best recheck.

This has already been fully refuted.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

I probably already told you, in Greek it does not call the Logos capitol G God. Its why there have many translations by Greek scholars in history with a god at John 1:1. You best recheck.

Messiah came from the very CENTER of the FATHER as did His Holy Spirit.

Today, begin believing every word of God so that you can see more clearly.

Elohim/Plural said "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven,
and of those on earth,
and of those under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You rob God of His glory when you dishonor His Son who is the Lord
If you dishonor the SON you grieve(sin) the Holy Spirit
If you grieve the HOLY SPIRIT you dishonor Both the SON who is Lord and His FATHER who is God

For THEY are Echad Elohim

 

[David in NJ]

Yes. Paul argues that Jesus' obedience qualified him to be risen from the dead and given all authority

Philippians 2:8-9 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name . . .

Note the emphasis on his being a man and that he was qualified to receive a name above every other name because of his obedience.

Good Morning,
@CadyandZoe could you please review this:

Messiah came from the very CENTER of the FATHER as did His Holy Spirit.

Elohim/Plural said "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven,
and of those on earth,
and of those under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You rob God of His glory when you dishonor His Son who is the Lord
If you dishonor the SON you grieve(sin) the Holy Spirit
If you grieve the HOLY SPIRIT you dishonor Both the SON who is Lord and His FATHER who is God

For THEY are Echad Elohim

 

[Johann]

Good Morning,
@CadyandZoe could you please review this:

Messiah came from the very CENTER of the FATHER as did His Holy Spirit.

Elohim/Plural said "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven,
and of those on earth,
and of those under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You rob God of His glory when you dishonor His Son who is the Lord
If you dishonor the SON you grieve(sin) the Holy Spirit
If you grieve the HOLY SPIRIT you dishonor Both the SON who is Lord and His FATHER who is God

For THEY are Echad Elohim

Christ Jesus has been robbed of His glory and deity.

J.

 

[APAK]

Good Morning,
@CadyandZoe could you please review this:

Messiah came from the very CENTER of the FATHER as did His Holy Spirit.

What Bible are you using? The center of the Father and his own Spirit? This is so very confusing, and what do you mean by the their center?

 

[David in NJ]

Christ Jesus has been robbed of His glory and deity.

J.

and if you deny One , you deny them ALL

and you know what it means, from the Torah, to say "YAHshua HaMashiach has come in the flesh"

For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.
This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

***If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.***

 

[David in NJ]

What Bible are you using? The center of the Father and his own Spirit? This is so very confusing, and what do you mean by the their center?

Good Morning,

the WORD from the Center of the FATHER = John 1:18

No one has seen God at any time.
The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

 

[APAK]

Good Morning,

the WORD from the Center of the FATHER = John 1:18

No one has seen God at any time.
The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Then what about the Father's Spirit you also included? Is it not his spirit?

 

[David in NJ]

Then what about the Father's Spirit you also included? Is it not his spirit?

In the beginning Elohim(Plural) created the heavens and the earth.

Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep.
And the Spirit of Elohim was hovering over the surface of the waters.

And Elohim Said(the Word), “Let there be light,” and there was light.

3 Versus with THREE Elohim = for THEY are ECHAD

 

[APAK]

and if you deny One , you deny them ALL

and you know what it means, from the Torah, to say "YAHshua HaMashiach has come in the flesh"

For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.
This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

***If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.***

The Father God is the creator of all, and all things, physical/material and spiritual. He also created a son to begin the second and final genesis, to establish and complete his Kingdom. Therefore all glory goes to the Father. His son has glory only because the Father desires it.

The Bible is first the Father God centric, then the 'dia' or the agent/proxy, his Son, until the time of the Kingdom's return

 

[David in NJ]

The Father God is the creator of all, and all things, physical/material and spiritual. He also created a son to begin the second and final genesis, to establish and complete his Kingdom. Therefore all glory goes to the Father. His son has glory only because the Father desires it.

The Bible is first the Father God centric, then the 'dia' or the agent/proxy, his Son, until the time of the Kingdom's return

He also created a son

Can you provide the scripture which states that the FATHER created His Son - ty

 

[ProDeo]

Why are you surprised?

Yes, I agree that he pre-existed with the Father as a separate created entity who always knew his place as subordinate to his God and Creator. (Rev 3:14; 1 Cor 11:3)

That's a pleasant surprise.

He gave up that glorious state to become a lowly human who was to sacrifice his life because Adam didn’t love his God enough to sacrifice his wife for him. He chose to side with his disobedient wife rather than to lose her.....creating the necessity for all his children to need a rescuer.
If Adam had never sinned he never would have died…..and Christ’s sacrifice would never have been needed.

Agree.

No...I never did. I just don’t believe in a triad of gods because Jesus never mentioned that he was part of a trinity….he only ever said he was ”the son of God”. And I believe him.

You call the shots....I answered your questions as truthfully as I know how....

Okay, first point agreed, curious on my next points.

2. We know Jesus with the Father was involved in the creation story (Col 1)
3. We know Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end (Rev)
4. We know Jesus existed before creation, before humans were created and thus was a spiritual Being.
5. We know Jesus (as a spiritual Being) descended from heaven (John 3:13) and became (incarnated as) a human.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Christ Jesus has been robbed of His glory and deity.

J.

How so?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Scripture contains many references explicitly pointing to the preexistence of the Messiah, and I have demonstrated this repeatedly from the Scriptures. If you disagree with Scripture, that is not my concern.

I disagree with your interpretations, not the scriptures.

First, In His ordinary contact with people here below, He appeared not to be what He was, and appeared to be what He was not.

I don't agree with your premise that things don't appear as they exist. The idea of consubstantiation came from the same Catholic/Platonic syncretism that produced the doctrine of "The real presence." It's all "hocus pocus."