Exploring Trinitarian Logic

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Runningman

Active Member
Dec 3, 2023
547
232
43
39
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Messiah preexisted and became something He was not before-2 Aorist-in the likeness of man.

J.
If I may, since Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (Heb. 13:8) then how did he become something he was not before? I just ask this as food for thought. The way I see it is that Adam was the first man, but Jesus is also a man. I believe Jesus is still a man now.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
If I may, since Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (Heb. 13:8) then how did he become something he was not before? I just ask this as food for thought. The way I see it is that Adam was the first man, but Jesus is also a man. I believe Jesus is still a man now.
Not just a man Runningman, but the Son of Man!

Trinitarians don't know him and will miss him when he comes.

F2F
 

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
919
235
43
62
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hate that which is evil and love that which is Good.

Did you know that the LORD Jesus Christ created you?
The lord Jesus created nothing!

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

You know the God that raised Jesus from the dead!

Act 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Act 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."


God raised HIS servant.... Jesus!


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Who gave him?



How do you not know these things!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: face2face

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's an insane statement David, quite ridiculous.... God's inner core divine attribute is his word. It's not a person...where to you get this crazy notion that the word of God WAS A PERSON anyway?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The lord Jesus created nothing!

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

You know the God that raised Jesus from the dead!

Act 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Act 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."


God raised HIS servant.... Jesus!


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Who gave him?



How do you not know these things!!!
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
 
  • Love
Reactions: amigo de christo

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@amigo de christo

To remove Deaths dominion

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. Romans 6:9

for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrew 9:26

If he didn't! amigo is still in his sins!

F2F
I know this my friend . why on earth did you quote wranglers post
and then attention me . I have , by grace known this .
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
that so beautiful you may as well post it again for all to see and PRAYERFULLY actually BELIEVE IT .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
919
235
43
62
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
I have another train of thought for you think about. Is what you're reading into John 1 mostly church tradition? For almost 400 years, we have a read John 1 through the eyes of the Catholic Church. (reinforcing the Trinity). In the New Testament, “the Word” (Logos) happens to be of the masculine gender. Therefore, it's pronoun -"he" in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation. Did John write concerning “the word” that “he” was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning “the word” that “it” was in the beginning with God? As already stated, in the NT Greek the logos or word is masculine noun. It is okay in English to use “he” to refer back to his masculine noun if there is good contextual reason to do so. But is there good reason to make “the word” a “he” here?

It is a fact that all English translations from the Greek before the King James version of 1611 actually read this way: (notice Him and He are now “It”).

Tyndale 1534: Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with God. 3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
Cranmer 1539 John 1:1 IN the begynnynge was the worde and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it and without it, was made nothynge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was the lyght of men
Bishops 1568: Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,
Geneva 1587: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God. 2 This same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men.
And now our modern Concordant Literal Version: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the
word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

The word logos appears many, many more times in this very Gospel of John. And nowhere else do the translators capitalize it or use the masculine personal pronoun "he" to agree with it !

The rest of the New Testament is the same. Logos is variously translated as "statement" (Luke 20:20), “question" (Matt 21:24), "preaching" (1 Tim 5:17), "command" (Gal 5:14),"message" (Luke 4:32), "matter" (Acts 15:6), "reason" (Acts 10:29), so there is actually no reason to make John one say that "the Word" is the person Jesus himself, unless of course the translators are wanting to make a point to. In all cases logos is an “it.”

In the light of this background it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, a reason by which He brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who he is.

"The Word" for John is an “it” not a "he." On one occasion, Jesus is given the name "the word of God" and this is in Revelations 19:13. This name has been given to him after his resurrection and ascension, but we will not find it before his birth. It is not until we come to verse 14 of John's prologue that this logos becomes personal and becomes the son of God, Jesus. "And the Word became flesh." A great plan that God had in his heart from before the creation at last is fulfilled. Be very clear that it does not say that God became flesh.

There is even strong evidence suggesting that John himself reacted to those who were already misusing his gospel to mean that Jesus was himself the Word who had personally preexist the world. When later he wrote his introduction to 1 John, he clearly made the point that what was in the beginning was not a “who” he put it this way: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life…"

Logos - This word is translated in English as "Word". This word has an actual meaning which has been almost completely lost due to the Greek philosophical interpretation of John 1:1-3 & 14.
who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. (Rev 1:2)

"I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God." (Rev 20:4)

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God.

Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.


John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one (God) who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, as He is not the Logos! So who is the Logos? The very next verse tell us!

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He ( God) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Word of God in this verse means God's plan of salvation for us (NAB), i.e. the kingdom of God message. So what does "logos" mean?

Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea (New American Bible (footnote) & Vine’s Expository Dictionary).

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:
Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.

I will give you a brief paraphrase of John 1:1-3 using the definitions for "logos:"

"In the beginning was God's plan, will, or idea for our salvation. It was present in his mind, and God's plan or will possessed all the attributes of God."


The very Trinitarian Roman Catholic New American Bible has this comment on this verse:

"Lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification."

Predication -
to affirm as a quality or attribute (Webster's Dictionary).

So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born. This verse is probably one of the biggest culprits in the creation of the trinity. The reason being that to someone educated in Greek philosophy such as the early church fathers of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, centuries, logos had an entirely different meaning. Tertullian who was responsible for much of the creation of the trinity was a Stoic lawyer. The Stoics defined "logos" as the "divine principle of life." Which is basically a definition of God. With this definition you are going to arrive at a completely different interpretation than what John intended. You will interpret it something like this:

"In the beginning was the divine principle of life, and the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Then, the divine principle of life became flesh."

With this definition you arrive at the conclusion that the divine principle of life, which is God, became flesh. Now you have God's essence in two places at once. The explanation for this obvious problem came in the form of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Then you have God's essence in flesh, so the description of Jesus becomes that he is fully God and fully man. These concepts come straight out of Greek philosophy. Greek philosophers believed that man was composed of flesh and a divine spark.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, He is not the Logos!


How do you not know these things?
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
Regulators mount up . Forward march , left ... left ..... left right left . MARCHIN onwards in the trenches my friend .
its all out war for the souls of men .
And that which is of anti christ, interfaith , is moving in to allure and to decieve the many .
 

Runningman

Active Member
Dec 3, 2023
547
232
43
39
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not just a man Runningman, but the Son of Man!

Trinitarians don't know him and will miss him when he comes.

F2F
There is a tid bit in 1 Thess. 4:14 that seems to be evidence that God and Jesus are not the same actor.

1 Thess. 4
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes it is. Words are not persons.
words aint , but What GOD SPOKE is TRUTH . so sad that many sure seem to trod under foot
SOME and more and more OF HIS sayings all the time .
Folks holler we beleive in GOD we beleive in CHRIST and yet treat HIS own words as though they are hate speech .
PEOPLE treat both GOD and CHRIST as though they the devil and the devil as though HE and anti christ are GOD and CHRIST .
I guarantee ya that HAD JESUS come in the flesh one more time
and raised up and brought his own with him
and they all entered into the churches and onto websites
MOST PEOPLE WOULD LABEL THEM ALL HATERS , ANTI CHRISTS , devils as they embrace Satans version of todays god and his jesus .
WE BEEN DUPED and worse MANY SEEM TO LOVE THIS DECEPTOIN . interfaith is of anti christ .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
There is a tid bit in 1 Thess. 4:14 that seems to be evidence that God and Jesus are not the same actor.

1 Thess. 4
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The Trinitarian fails to see themselves as the Body of Christ and I'm guessing all them have never studied the marriage of the Lamb.
I'm confident though in time a few can be snatched from the fire.

F2F
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Trinitarian fails to see themselves as the Body of Christ and I'm guessing all them have never studied the marriage of the Lamb.
I'm confident though in time a few can be snatched from the fire.

F2F
yea rather what MOST , and it sure dont seem to matter what denomination oretc they are in
FAIL TO SEE is
that if JESUS HIMSELF and the apostels were to return in flesh and appear as men
MOST ALL OF CHRISTENDOM would say , HEY HATERS , TONE IT DOWN Dudes
GOD IS LOVE , you all DONT KNOW GOD , YALL NEED JESUS and LOVE . that is a fact .
AND I MEAN A FACT friend . We better all bible up .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
View attachment 56775 only created beings can contract their glory!!!

The Trinitarians don't know this yet

F2F
this is well infiltrated all realms friend . the mother harlot leads it and her daughters instruct .
SO i say it again
If most people WITHIN CHRISTENDOM , whether trinitairian OR not ,
were to see JESUS walk into their church
and HE began to teach
THEY WOULD RUN HIM OFF saying DANG DUDE you a hater , you a devil , you dont know love
you dont know GOD , HEY BUDDIE you need our SIN ACCEPING UNBELIEF BROAD PATH ACCEPTING
THUMBS UP SMILEY JESUS . that is a fact . NOW GO WEEP OVER IT cause i sure do .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
10,356
10,827
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Regulators mount up . Forward march , left ... left ..... left right left . MARCHIN onwards in the trenches my friend .
its all out war for the souls of men .
And that which is of anti christ, interfaith , is moving in to allure and to decieve the many .
Stop with childish game of playing toy soldiers and listen to scripture, unless it does not speak to you of course, and you follow what is popular.

So if you want to continue this immature charade, as I've noticed you have for a long time now, let's do some adult supervision basic English for understanding shall we.

1. In John 1:1b we read the word was with God. This means that whatever was the word was NOT God at all, right?
2. And in John 1:1c And the word thus cannot be God as in 1:1b we both read that the word was next/towards to God.

And besides, it is also grammatically wrong to use the word God here in 1:1c, as there is no definite article before theos. It also is incorrect as the JW wish to say, it is a god, because the word logos although male in gender in its language, is always a neuter or neutral gender when translated into English. It is an 'it.' If you cannot understand it I will explain it for you.

It thus means the divine 'quality' of God. So John 1:1c says the word was divine. And it is of God course. It's his core inner divine quality of expression, voice and communication along with his spirit with at least his creation, and through various creature, angels, prophets, Jesus and created things bushes, donkeys etc...

So moving on to John 1:14, that most are eager to meld to Jesus and are laser focused on, and based on what is already said, and by substituting this context here, we get that the divine word or voice of God, his own voice became a human being, a human voice and expression, and of course it is Jesus the Christ. And because the voice or expressions of God now came through a man, he then became the word of God, and he was glorious, and folks saw his miraculous deeds by his God's word and spirit..etc.

So, can you now understand that the word is not, and can never be a person, let alone Jesus. It is God's word that creates and speaks miracles into reality, inside through Jesus; human single spirit. And then this does not make Jesus God either. Else we must be on some really heavy drugs...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.