Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Ritajanice]

According to Paul, Jesus acted with humility and considered others more valuable than himself. He is known as the suffering servant, and he taught his disciples to serve others. He told them that the greatest among them would be the servant of all. Mark 9:35, John 13.

The Gospels describe Jesus' behavior as one who was humble and unassuming. He always walked and never rode an animal except once. He was kind, generous, forgiving, patient, and helpful.


I agree. He did that too.

Thank you, appreciate you explaining.

 

[Johann]

So Jesus wasn't born?

Messiah preexisted and became something He was not before-2 Aorist-in the likeness of man.

J.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That's a pleasant surprise.

It’s what the Bible says.....I only believe what the Bible says...

Agree.

OK, now it’s my turn to be surprised....not many in Christendom agree that Jesus is a created being, even though Jesus himself says that he is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)

In my experience, not many people have ‘the big picture’ as to why Jesus came as redeemer in the first place, and how his sacrifice makes “atonement” for the whole human race. It was never in the original plan...
God never intended for humans to go to heaven…he designed them for everlasting life here in paradise on earth.

Okay, first point agreed, curious on my next points.

I’m not sure that you really agree if you are a trinitarian….

2. We know Jesus with the Father was involved in the creation story (Col 1)
3. We know Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end (Rev)
4. We know Jesus existed before creation, before humans were created and thus was a spiritual Being.
5. We know Jesus (as a spiritual Being) descended from heaven (John 3:13) and became (incarnated as) a human.

I answered all these points in post #2360….

Jesus was “with” his Father in creation….as John 1:1 and Col 1:15-17 clearly state, as the agency “through” whom all things came into existence.….John 1:2-3 also tell us this.

Calling him “theos” (“god“ with a small “g”) didn’t make him “God” (“ho theos” or “God” with a capital “G”)….it made him divine.….not deity. Not once did Jesus say he was God.

We agree that Jesus had a pre-human existence, but as “the only begotten son of God”….so, as the “firstborn of all creation” he is the first and only direct creation of the Father….this makes him unique. He was a spirit being like his Father, and was used by the Creator to bring all things into existence because creation was “made through him and for him”. Creation was God’s gift to his son….

Jesus has a God even in heaven, (Rev 3:12)…..so he can’t be God.

 

[face2face]

Christ Jesus has been robbed of His glory and deity.

J.

It was imputed Johann!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Would you say that Jesus Spirit was with God before the foundation of the world?

The Bible tells us that all who inhabit the spirit realm are “spirits”….so “the son of God“ was always “the son of God”……he was “with God” “in the beginning”.
Since God/Yahweh is an Eternal Being, he had no “beginning”.
The “beginning” the Bible speaks about is the beginning of God’s creation and Rev 3:14 says that Jesus is that “beginning”.

Where did the Spirit Of Jesus come from?

The man Jesus didn’t exist until his human birth….in heaven as God’s “firstborn” he had another name…and when he returned to heaven, God gave him yet another “new name”. (Rev 3:12) Each name that Jesus bears is a reflection of the role he has played to earn that name or title. After his successful mission on earth, God “exalted him” and gave him a new name. (Phil 2:7-9)

Was it not always in / with the Father?

As the “firstborn” of God’s creations, this son has been with his Father longer than any other creature.

Short commentary.

Was Jesus a spirit before he came to earth?
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), the largest denomination in the Latter Day Saint movement, believe that Jesus Christ (and all people) was a pre-existent spirit who then gained a physical body at birth.

The LDS church has some very unscriptural ideas about who we humans are, and where we came from. The Bible does not support any of them.

God gave humans the ability to reproduce their own kind, just like he did with the animals….conception is the moment when two lots of DNA combine to produce a new living being…..so before conception, we did not exist because we do not have a “soul” that pre-existed our conception….we became a “soul” with the breath of life, just like Adam. (Gen 2:7) The word “soul” literally means “a breather”.

Where was Adam told he would go if he disobeyed? To heaven or hell? NO! He was simply told that he would go back to where he came from (Gen 3:19)…back to the dust or the elements from which he was created. Similarly when we deliberately turn our back on God he will merely cancel our lives and send us back to where we came from…..before our conception, we didn’t exist.

The greatest penalty for our own disobedience is simply everlasting death, which is the opposite of everlasting life……there is no torture or pain in a fiery hell, but simply the end of our existence…..why does it have to be more than that? God finds no pleasure in consciously punishing people eternally…what would be the point?

 

[Pierac]

Stop using the phrase 'grabbing/holding' your ankles as it is not appropriate for us to say to each other - thank you

That was my speech from the 'old man' which is dead in trespasses and sins.

Don't Hate me because I speak like Jesus did.... to those whom like you.... worshiped the Traditions of men... Jesus Spanked the Pharisees!

How do you not know these things?

 

[APAK]

Can you provide the scripture which states that the FATHER created His Son - ty

Well David...I'm very surprised you have not read the gospel writers work. It's splattered all over concerning Jesus' creation in several places, and not counting OT scripture.

And where in scripture is Jesus unmade...NONE!

 

[APAK]

Let's not forget the passage we are talking about -

Hebr 9:12 - he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

You said based on this verse Jesus needed redemption.

I disagree, the Hebrew author talked about our redemption because we are sinners and Jesus is not.

And so my answer, granted, a bit cryptic - So Jesus as ONLY HUMAN had to earn his redemption ????

As we know we are saved by grace alone, there is nothing to earn.

Jesus (sinless) did not needed redemption, He secured our redemption as 9:12 says.

You only have cite Hebrews scripture covering half, only our need for redemption. Jesus also had to be saved and redeemed technically as he performed the burnt offering and provide the legal basis for our redemption. You do know what the burnt offering entailed right?

And we do not earn salvation at all by the way. This is by grace of God. And redemption is not our work at all, it is God's and his Son's to give only!

And also learn the difference between redemption and salvation PD..as with some of your fellow Primary school students like...
@amigo de christo @Marvelloustime @Johann etc

 

[Wrangler]

exactly what the scrips say . IN the Beginning was THE WORD and the WORD was with GOD
and GOD is the Word .

But the WORD is not Jesus.

 

[Pierac]

@Aunty Jane , @Pierac , @face2face

Hockey game is on and my team is winning so i will not be on for a while.

@ProDeo @Dan Clarkston - would you guys cover for me

So your team that claims to have two TWO GODS is winning?​

From the start of Judaism and later Christianity, the most famous aspect and unique characteristic of the two religions is the fact that they were, and still are monotheistic. Christianity is really the continuation of Judaism. Both religions believe in one, and only one unbegotten God, creator of the universe. There are no other gods in these two faiths.

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."

Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."

No one will contest that to a Jew or a Christian, there is only one God. Anything else would simply be considered polytheism. The majority of Christianity believes in one God, but a God that is plural in makeup. There are three persons that constitute this one God. They are three, but yet, they are still all the one God. There is: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

In this post we will be concerned primarily with Trinitarian Christianity’s view of God. Specifically, God the Son.

We all know that God the Son has a Father (God the Father). But the question that must be asked and answered is: can God the Son have a God? Every pastor that I have ever asked this question to has always said "Of course not!" But is that the answer given in Scripture? No, on the contrary. As you will see, the prophesied Messiah in the Old Testament is said to have a God. Then you will see that Jesus the Messiah fulfills those prophesies because he most definitely has a God. If you come to the conclusion that Jesus has a God, then it might be time to rethink and research the Doctrine of the Trinity. Because if God the Son has a God, then there are TWO GODS!

To make this as simple as possible, I am not going to list the huge amount of Scriptures which have God (not "Father") and Jesus in the same sentence, or Scriptures that have God speaking to Jesus, or Jesus speaking to God. We will only be concerned with Scriptures that prove that Jesus has a God.


OLD TESTAMENT MESSIANIC PROPHESIES

Psalm 89:26-28 - "He (the Messiah) shall say of me. "You are my father, my God, my rock, my savior". And I will make him the firstborn."

Micah 5:3-4 - "He (the Messiah) shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the Majestic name of the LORD, his God."

Psalm 22:10-11 - "To you I was committed at birth. From my mother’s womb you are my God."

NEW TESTAMENT​

Jesus Speaking:

John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

Revelation 3:2 - "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."

Paul:

Ephesians 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 1:17 - "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."

2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Corinthians 11:31 - "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."

Romans 15:6 - "that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Peter:

1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

John:

Revelation 1:6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

When one reads the preceding verses, there is one thing that is a fact. That Jesus Christ has a God. Jesus speaks of his God, Peter Paul and John mention the God of Jesus Christ. Are they all mistaken? Are we to believe that all these verses are misprints? Are we to suppose that theologians several centuries after Christ knew more about Jesus than Jesus and his Apostles? There is no way around it.

The New American Bible (a Roman Catholic Bible) in a section discussing biblical revelation says,

"It is the very same God who reveals Himself in so many richly divergent ways on every page of the Scriptures. The God of Abraham and Moses and David is the God of Jesus of Nazareth."


How do you not know these things silly child!

 

[Wrangler]

GOD didnt need to come to prove his own redemption .
JESUS came FOR OUR sakes . SPOT ON RIGHT

JESUS was the first to be redeemed by GOD. Right, @face2face?

 

[Pierac]

@David in NJ ..I didn’t think God exalted Jesus, not until after his work was done ,when he came in the Name Of The Father, then did all the will of the Father that he was asked to do, he was the 100% obedient Son, once he died and was resurrected that’s when he was exalted?

We too are children of God and are being taught to be obedient to the Father, by the power within us, the Living Holy Spirit..only he can bring us inline with the Fathers will...while we live on this earth...?

Where would we be today if the Lord Jesus hadn’t died for our sins?

Philippians 2​

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King James Version​

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2 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
18 For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.
19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.
20 For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state.
21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
22 But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.
23 Him therefore I hope to send presently, so soon as I shall see how it will go with me.
24 But I trust in the Lord that I also myself shall come shortly.
25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

Emptied Himself

Now to the second phrase in Philippians 2 that causes a difficulty. It is the one that says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (v. 6-7). It is unfortunate that the Old King James version of the Bible translated this verse completely wrong. It reads that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" and gives the impression that as the preexistent God, Jesus did not think there was anything wrong in being considered equal with God.

It ought to be clear by now that this is the exact opposite of what is meant. The whole context of the passage is about being humble, putting God's will and glory first, and serving others’ interest above one's own interest. Although he was in "the form of God" Jesus did not reckon his God-given status as something to be exploited.

This meaning contrast well with the conduct of Adam who unfortunately did consider equality with God anything to be grasped at. Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God. But Jesus would not usurp God's authority for selfish advantage. He said, "I came to serve" (Matt. 20:28), not to snatch! At his arrest in the garden, he said, "Do you not think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?" (Matthew 26:53). As the Messiah, God's appointed King, he had every right to call for divine protection. He "emptied himself" of all such Messianic privileges.

Therefore, it can be categorically stated that Philippians 2: 5-11 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being God in a preexistence state. The importance is really very simple and very practical: how are Christians to conduct themselves in this world? Not by imitating the man Adam who forfeited everything by a grab for power and glory, but by imitating Jesus the Messiah (v.5) who through humility and obedience to God gained it all and more. After all, if Jesus was already God, then verses 9 to 11 are nonsensical. There is no "Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth." If he was already God, he had this before his birth! No. It is clear that God has given him a new position, a new name (authority), and a new rank that he did not previously possess.

The Greek is very clear here: dio kai means (as in Luke 1:35) "for this reason precisely." Why has God exalted Jesus to His right hand? "Therefore, God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every other name because he is back where he was before as God"? Not at all! He is given the status as a reward for the precise reason that he humbled himself and died. His exalted status is a reward. If we follow the last Adam's pattern, we too will be exalted by God when Christ returns. It is evident, then, that "this hymn does not contained what numerous interpreters seek and find in it: an independent statement about preexistence or even a Christology preexistence… No preexistence of Christ before the world with an independent significance can be recognized even in Philippians 2.

This is the creed of ALL Orthodox Christian Beliefs! All of them... including yours!

DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.


So pay close attention.... The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.

 

[Pierac]

Messiah preexisted and became something He was not before-2 Aorist-in the likeness of man.

J.

Christ the First-born of all the creation

The word “first-born” comes to the New Testament with a rich Hebrew heritage. The Hebrews had a custom of conferring special birthright privileges on their oldest sons. The eldest son of a father would receive the double portion of the family's inheritance. The well-known story of Jacob tricking his father Isaac into conferring on him - rather than on the first-born-Esau all the family blessing is typical of this culture (Gen 27:32). There is a deeper nuance to the meaning of this word “first-born.” The Greek word for “first” can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The “first-born” may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as “my first-born”… preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 49:3)

Although Reubin is “first-born” in time, the prominent idea is his status in dignity. This is clearly the meaning in Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim his “first-born” even though Ephraim’s brother, Manasseh, was the elder of the two. Or when God calls Israel his first-born son in Exodus 4:22 and commands Pharaoh to “let my son go that he may worship me.” (v.23) The concept has to do with Israel's precedence in importance over Egypt as far as God's plans were concerned. The classic instance of this idea of pre-eminence of rank is in the Messianic Psalms 89 where God, in glowing words, speaks of the coming promise Davidic king, the Lord Messiah:

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my
salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy, God announces that this king’s superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description. In fact, the expression is repeated a few verses later, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18). The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ returned is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being.
To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation."

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

 

[APAK]

JESUS was the first to be redeemed by GOD. Right, @face2face?

Excellent point. Yes indeed he was the firstfruit(s) of the harvest, the 1st from the dead, reborn indeed. If he was not redeemed we automatically would be dead in our sins, with NO hope then of being saved or of SALVATION.

And the reason MS religion does not teach it, it would expose them to say Jesus was created by the Father and was a human being...and that wouold be a know.NO, know,NO...they need to keep the lie alive and kill off many folks from being saved in the process....evil indeed

 

[David in NJ]

Well David...I'm very surprised you have not read the gospel writers work. It's splattered all over concerning Jesus' creation in several places, and not counting OT scripture.

And where in scripture is Jesus unmade...NONE!

But you have no scripture that declares that the Word that was God was cretaed.

I'll give you $100.00 USD if you prove that the Word that was God was created by God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thank you, appreciate you explaining.

I think when you read the gospels, you will see it for yourself. He was a humble, good man who spoke the truth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Messiah preexisted and became something He was not before-2 Aorist-in the likeness of man.

J.

The fact remains, Jesus was born. Therefore he didn't exist before that.

 

[David in NJ]

Don't Hate me because I speak like Jesus did.... to those whom like you.... worshiped the Traditions of men... Jesus Spanked the Pharisees!

How do you not know these things?

Hate that which is evil and love that which is Good.

Did you know that the LORD Jesus Christ created you?

 

[face2face]

JESUS was the first to be redeemed by GOD. Right, @face2face?

@amigo de christo

To remove Deaths dominion

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. Romans 6:9

for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrew 9:26

If he didn't! amigo is still in his sins!

F2F

 

[APAK]

Excellent point. Yes indeed he was the firstfruit(s) of the harvest, the 1st from the dead, reborn indeed. If he was not redeemed we automatically would be dead in our sins, with NO hope then of being saved or of SALVATION.

But you have no scripture that declares that the Word that was God was cretaed.

I'll give you $100.00 USD if you prove that the Word that was God was created by God.

That's an insane statement David, quite ridiculous.... God's inner core divine attribute is his word. It's not a person...where to you get this crazy notion that the word of God WAS A PERSON anyway?