Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

@David in NJ I've found Pierac to be very sound so far.

 

[face2face]

John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I [Jesus] had with you [Father] before the world existed.

This verse is about the glory between God the Father and God the Son and the glory between Them goes back before creation, before the Father (Elohim) said - Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

In the meantime I counted quite some passages you (and others) are allergic and respond agitated and John 17:5 is just another one. In my world -- simply believing what Scripture literally states -- everything fits when it is about God the Son. Jesus is many things, it's and / and without exceptions and I don't have to understand the divinity of Jesus and the relationship He had with the Father before He came from heaven and incarnated in the flesh. Insisting to understand God is a receipt for unbelief.

Try writing a post where you are seen to be part of that Glory.

See how you go...warning, you will need the faith of Jesus to write it!

F2F

 

[ProDeo]

Because Marks & Johann like your inference let me ask you a question.

Whom he did foreknow." (Rom. 8:29).

because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Ro 8:29.

Do you believe you will share in the same Glory Pro?

All glory is for God the Son.

 

[face2face]

All glory is for God the Son.

So, you’ve excluded yourself from the Lord’s Prayer (and your Lord) in John 17.

As long as you are fully aware of what you are doing and saying!

F2F

 

[Pierac]

Are you able to communicate in a sentence or two with a scripture or two???

Quality vs quantity

Just let go of your spitural ankles.... Your spanking came and went... so don't speak for others who's time has now come...

I know you could not give an actual rebuttal...so we get .... Are you able to communicate in a sentence or two with a scripture or two???

At least try to give a intellectual response... not how bad you feel

 

[face2face]

@David in NJ you need a herbal poultice and salves after that spanking!

 

[David in NJ]

Just let go of your spitural ankles.... Your spanking came and went... so don't speak for others who's time has now come...

I know you could not give an actual rebuttal...so we get .... Are you able to communicate in a sentence or two with a scripture or two???

At least try to give a intellectual response... not how bad you feel

Stop using the phrase 'grabbing/holding' your ankles as it is not appropriate for us to say to each other - thank you

That was my speech from the 'old man' which is dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[ProDeo]

So, you’ve excluded yourself from the Lord’s Prayer (and your Lord) in John 17.

No idea why do you think so, but I have the idea you are going to tell me.

 

[David in NJ]

@Aunty Jane , @Pierac , @face2face

Hockey game is on and my team is winning so i will not be on for a while.

@ProDeo @Dan Clarkston - would you guys cover for me

 

[Aunty Jane]

@face2face , @Aunty Jane

I am much surprised about your answer on my first point -

Why are you surprised?

1. We know Jesus was the ONLY human Who preexisted and knew His life with the Father when He was on Earth (John 17)

John - 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Yes, I agree that he pre-existed with the Father as a separate created entity who always knew his place as subordinate to his God and Creator. (Rev 3:14; 1 Cor 11:3)
He gave up that glorious state to become a lowly human who was to sacrifice his life because Adam didn’t love his God enough to sacrifice his wife for him. He chose to side with his disobedient wife rather than to lose her.....creating the necessity for all his children to need a rescuer.
If Adam had never sinned he never would have died…..and Christ’s sacrifice would never have been needed.

Do you REALLY both deny Jesus preexistence with the Father ?

No...I never did. I just don’t believe in a triad of gods because Jesus never mentioned that he was part of a trinity….he only ever said he was ”the son of God”. And I believe him.

And if the answer is a "yes" then it does not make sense to talk about point 2-5.

You call the shots....I answered your questions as truthfully as I know how....

 

[Keiw]

Exploring trinity unlogic=
John 17:3--Jesus teaches-The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.
1Cor 8:6- Paul teaches-There is ONE God to all the Father.

Trinitarian teachers- God is made up of the Father, son, and holy spirit

When ones teachers do not match Jesus and Paul= RUN FROM THEM.

 

[Aunty Jane]

All glory is for God the Son.

There is no “God the Son”…..and all the glory goes to the Father. (Phil 2:11)

 

[face2face]

There is no “God the Son”…..and all the glory goes to the Father. (Phil 2:11)

True, but the Son and the Elect share in His Glory!

 

[Runningman]

I perceive a revival in these last days of proclaiming the true Gospel as taught by the Apostles. Seeing the posts from individuals like Wrangler, Apak, and yourself fills me with great joy that those who desire the Name are preparing themselves for the Masters coming.

Truth be known, I'm more interested in strengthening those things which remain (Rev 3:2) than I am of convincing hardcore 3n1 believers. We live is the last days "For who dares make light of small beginnings?" Zec 4:10.

Our faith is intuitive because it is grounded in real evidence and can be truly understood. The "dead ends" in Trinitarian doctrine are numerous, and as we are witnessing, those who adhere to it will come to realize that it cannot provide the salvation they believe it does.

May our God continue to strengthen you in the sure knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord.

F2F

Yes and amen. I think that is a great way to put it. On the other hand, I do like to share what I believe even if it is with those who will forever disagree. We are all on the same playing field called the Bible, but we are just not all agreeing what it means exactly.

I think eventually it comes down to people have their faith, religion, and/or beliefs and they are sticking to them regardless of what the real evidence is. Faith and belief does not require evidence to exist and thus people can potentially believe anything.

For me I believe that one person being God (YHWH the Father) is what they originally believed in Christianity. The idea about Jesus being God may have arisen early on due to people actually believing that because Jesus did miracles, forgave sins, etc that he must be God. For me, I see that in the Bible that people were doing the same kind of miracles as Jesus and even received the same authority to forgive sins as he did according to Matthew 9:6-8.

I also know there are different nuances for the word different words for god in Hebrew culture because Psalm 82:6 says all of the sons of the Most High are themselves gods.

So who Jesus, as far as I can tell, is the example of what we can be. Is Jesus not the Son of God and can't those who come to God through Jesus also be sons (and daughters) of God as well? Then we have something in common with Jesus. There is actually a lot to say about all of the things we can have in common with Jesus. We can sit on the throne with Jesus, rule the nations, be co-heirs of the same inheritance, be resurrection, raptured, etc. It's all scriptural, too. That's why I believe that Jesus must be our example of what we can become or obtain.

 

[David in NJ]

Exploring trinity unlogic=
John 17:3--Jesus teaches-The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.
1Cor 8:6- Paul teaches-There is ONE God to all the Father.

Trinitarian teachers- God is made up of the Father, son, and holy spirit

When ones teachers do not match Jesus and Paul= RUN FROM THEM.

Please read the WHOLE Bible before you come to conclusions on just a few scriptures.

Did you read and BELIEVE this TRUTH - John chapter 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,
full of grace and truth.

What about this Declaration = Psalm 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD;
He inclined to me and heard my cry.
He lifted me up from the pit of despair,
out of the miry clay;
He set my feet upon a rock,
and made my footsteps firm.
He put a new song in my mouth,
a hymn of praise to our God.
Many will see and fear
and put their trust in the LORD.

You MUST pray, read, pray, study, pray and wait on the LORD for understanding

 

[face2face]

So who Jesus, as far as I can tell, is the example of what we can be. Is Jesus not the Son of God and can't those who come to God through Jesus also be sons (and daughters) of God as well? Then we have something in common with Jesus. There is actually a lot to say about all of the things we can have in common with Jesus. We can sit on the throne with Jesus, rule the nations, be co-heirs of the same inheritance, be resurrection, raptured, etc. It's all scriptural, too. That's why I believe that Jesus must be our example of what we can become or obtain.

This is where his prayer for us to share in God's glory becomes the ultimate goal! Yahweh, being all and in all, means that flesh and death are swallowed up, with no more tears or suffering. Unfortunately, not everyone grasps the true calling, and those bound by creeds have distanced themselves so far from it.

God bless you reading and know it is from God you have been revealed His true Person.

A Blessing indeed

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

There is no “God the Son”…..and all the glory goes to the Father. (Phil 2:11)

Sure there is.

Elohim/Plural said "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven,
and of those on earth,
and of those under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You rob God of His glory when you dishonor His Son who is the Lord
If you dishonor the SON you grieve(sin) the Holy Spirit
If you grieve the HOLY SPIRIT you dishonor Both the SON who is Lord and His FATHER who is God

For THEY are Echad Elohim

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sure there is.

Elohim/Plural said "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Father and son were in collaboration with each other and they are the “us” and “our”….creation came “through” the son, not by him or from him. (Col 1:15-17; John 1:2-3)

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven,
and of those on earth,
and of those under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You read that all wrong, giving a title a meaning it doesn’t have.
Let me requote the words you failed to highlight there…..

“Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name”

This is supposedly God 1 giving God 2 a position of exaltation and a name higher that what he already has…..but there is no mention of the equal God 3. That is nonsensical.

Psalm 83:18, Jewish Tanakh….

“Let them know that You-Your name alone is the Lord, Most High over all the earth.”

יטוְיֵֽדְע֗וּ כִּי־אַתָּ֬ה שִׁמְךָ֣ יְהֹוָ֣ה לְבַדֶּ֑ךָ עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ:

The Jews knew that their one God had a unique name…..יְהֹוָ֣ה. (Yahweh) (Deut 6:4) which in the Tanakh reads….

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.

דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:

“The Lord” was a title and a substitute for the divine name.…yet, God’s name is there in the Hebrew text, but missing in the English translation.

God’s people did not know a god with three heads or three personalities. So anyone suggesting this to first century Jews would have not been taken in the same way as Christendom accepts it. It would have been greeted with hostility….a clear breach of the first Commandment.

Phil 2 continues….

“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven,
and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,”

Is “bowing the knee” an act of worship….or an act of reverence or obeisance? Does it say that Jesus should be worshipped? Or is this something that all humanity must do with respect to God’s son?….even those “under the earth”, who will rise in the resurrection and come to know “the only true God and the one he sent”. (John 17:3)

And lastly….
“and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Who gets the glory? Confessing that ”Jesus is Lord” is not saying he is “God” any more than Sarah calling Abraham “Lord” was calling him “God”. (1 Peter 3:6)
The title “Lord” in the Bible is the equivalent of us calling someone “Sir”…..

You rob God of His glory when you dishonor His Son.
If you dishonor the SON you grieve(sin) the Holy Spirit
If you grieve the HOLY SPIRIT you dishonor Both the Son and His FATHER

You rob the true God of his Sovereignty whom he shares with no one….nor his Godhood…..there is no God but Yahweh. You breach the first Commandment by putting three “Gods” (capital “G”) in the Father’s place.
That is the true dishonor….and a grieving of God’s spirit which is given only to those who love the truth, not the lie.

For THEY are Echad Elohim

“According to Jewish understanding, “echad” means “ unique” and Elohim is the plural of majesty….”the Royal We”….there never was a “compound God”.

God is one….and always has been…..and he always will be.
Jesus will always be his loyal son, serving at his Father’s side, as he has always done.
He will show you one day…..but if he has to spell it out, it might be too late….

The majority will not be right….this we already know….

 

[Ritajanice]

@David in NJ ..I didn’t think God exalted Jesus, not until after his work was done ,when he came in the Name Of The Father, then did all the will of the Father that he was asked to do, he was the 100% obedient Son, once he died and was resurrected that’s when he was exalted?

We too are children of God and are being taught to be obedient to the Father, by the power within us, the Living Holy Spirit..only he can bring us inline with the Fathers will...while we live on this earth...?

Where would we be today if the Lord Jesus hadn’t died for our sins?

Philippians 2​

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King James Version​

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2 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
18 For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.
19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.
20 For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state.
21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
22 But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.
23 Him therefore I hope to send presently, so soon as I shall see how it will go with me.
24 But I trust in the Lord that I also myself shall come shortly.
25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where does the passage state Christ needed redemption?

Remember, the verb "to redeem" literally means "to set free." We naturally associate redemption with being freed from sin, but this is not the only thing from which we are redeemed. We are also redeemed from death. Jesus did not need redemption from sin; he lived a sinless life.

Nonetheless, Jesus died for our sins, as you rightly point out. He needed redemption (to be freed from) from death, which is why the Father raised him from the dead -- never to die again.