Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Dan Clarkston]

After an intense three-week exchange with three members here, I feel the need for a break

No need to get stressed out... just put them on ignore and keep on truckin!

 

[face2face]

With this kind of mindset, what exactly should we expect from you?

False accusations of being "overly sensitive" instead of actual replies to my words? That's what I've come to expect, not just from you, but from certain others as well. Is it really true that no one understands that I can point to someone's bad behavior without it coming from some emotionalism?? At the end it's just deflection, and that's what I see very commonly practiced by certain ones.

Let me be honest. If I cared what you think, maybe I might be sensitive to your negative personal comments, maybe not. But in fact I don't care. You don't know me, and you don't give any indication that you really have the first idea about me.

And if these statements somehow express to you I'm overly sensitive, well, I certainly can't help that. You choose what you think, not me. It only takes one to engage in bad behavior. Call attention to it, and the excuses and deflections flow like water.

Much love!

I've had many encounters with you, Marks, and I don't think you're necessarily sensitive, but rather more non-confrontational. My natural brother is a gentle man who avoids confrontation, yet he still stands firm in his beliefs and defends himself when necessary. Where I see your issue is in your inability to engage in the debate and support your understanding. I've found you to reply at most two times before you bow out, gracefully might I add.

If that's your MO forum members need to respect that and move on.

I will say one thing, though: If you choose to counter a point and it leads to a confrontational encounter, please don’t react in a overly sensitive manner, as that, to me, borders on hypocrisy.

Your Master and Lord skillfully handled all the challenges thrown at Him, and in truth, He should be your example. If you don’t yet have the wisdom of your Lord to support your beliefs, then pray, read, study, and meditate until you do.

God bless your walk

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

Of firstborn privilege's yes!

True enough!

Of firstborn privilege's yes!

Your kidding!!!

 

[marks]

come across

Exactly. How it comes across to you. Not that I've ever said "your words offend me", or some equivalent statement. Not that I've ever expressed any offense, only that while you could choose to understand this or that, you choose that, and not this. You could think I'm trying to raise the bar, or you could think I'm pouting or whatever. You choose what to think, and this is what you choose. You should own that in my opinion.

Double question marks to reflect my being astounded that so few people seem to have a mature sense of personal responsibility. But then forums that don't have much moderation tend to attract those who don't like rules, and don't like personal responsibility. Just say whatever you want, whether it's useful, or factual, or even a good-faith statement.

And so now you can continue to repeat "how offended I am", or you could just hear what I'm actually saying. It remains your choice. I don't have any personal investment in what you think. But I am interested in somehow raising people's awareness of what constitutes vain speech, in the hope of seeing less of it, for a better forum.

Much love!

 

[APAK]

Answer #1 - Philippians 2:7
Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,

Answer #2 - Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Well David, close but no cigar..

You did not address question 1, instead you went to the theory and false doctrine of kenosis. If you say and believe he emptied himself of his divine nature, and kept in on ice somewhere, and that's impossible to have two natures in one body let alone a divine spirit, and instead, scripture clearly says he lived a life of deep humility and servitude in humility especially because God lived in him. And he needed his spirit to succeed in his mission as a human being.

This 'emptying himself' is a farce and a lie as it was introduced to coverup what happed to his so-called divine god nature on earth as he kept an active human nature. It covers up the other preceding lie of the imaginary concept of hypostasis dual natures of Jesus.

No, as a human being and person, he emptied himself of human pride, vanity and taking credit for the power of his God within him. He live a life of no reputation, purposely, to do the will of his Father.

And in question 2, you also missed the sense of my question completely. Although in what you said I agree with you that we are to have the spirit of Christ to be of his Body as one of his own.

 

[face2face]

No, as a human being and person, he emptied himself of human pride, vanity and taking credit for the power of his God within him. He live a life of no reputation, purposely, to do the will of his Father.

True is that!

He also emptied himself of the privilege's of being the Son of God (though he was!)...but why?

His calling was to be the Son of Man first, enduring all the sufferings and pains of the flesh. In embracing the role of a servant, Christ remained focused and undistracted by the temptations of being the Son of God, such as misusing His power and authority. Instead, He used them to proclaim the saving Gospel and to confirm it through miracles.

But why?

Isaiah 53:12 (ESV):

"Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death (the true nature of emptying) and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors."

Can you see where God's mind was concerning His Son?

Isaiah 49:3 (ESV):

"And he said to me, 'You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.'"

Isaiah 49:5 (ESV):

"And now the Lord says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God has become my strength."

If you told a Trinitarian that God's purpose for Christ was not "Sonship" but Servitude, they would strongly reject that teaching.



"In the form" implies a "former" – This Servant Son would be GOD's WORK!...not a preexisting Work already done but a New Creation shaped by the Wisdom and Discipline of Yahweh.

Jesus needed to be emptied of all Divine privilege's in order to become the Glorified Son of God.

F2F

 

[marks]

Where I see your issue is in your inability to engage in the debate and support your understanding. I've found you to reply at most two times before you bow out, gracefully might I add.

Think about that for a moment. I find your remark laughable, but that's just me.

There is a reason I don't engage much with you. I've found you to be one of those who seems perfectly willing to twist someone's words, or take them out of context, to put someone in a "gotcha" spot. Not to mention you are likewise prone to condescension towards others when they don't share your views. So I simply don't find that kind of thing useful, beneficial, or interesting. Nor do I think my comments will help you to be more self aware. I don't see any meaningful reason to engage with you in discussion.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Think about that for a moment. I find your remark laughable, but that's just me.

There is a reason I don't engage much with you. I've found you to be one of those who seems perfectly willing to twist someone's words, or take them out of context, to put someone in a "gotcha" spot. Not to mention you are likewise prone to condescension towards others when they don't share your views. So I simply don't find that kind of thing useful, beneficial, or interesting. Nor do I think my comments will help you to be more self aware. I don't see any meaningful reason to engage with you in discussion.

Much love!

I know how I can be at times, Marks, and much of what you've said is true. We both have our weaknesses, don’t we? Unless, of course, you have none—if that's the case, I could learn from that. That said, the content of my studies in the Word of God is well-proven and established by God as truth, and perhaps it's this confidence that you find challenging to engage with.

God bless
F2F

 

[David in NJ]

Well David, close but no cigar..

You did not address question 1, instead you went to the theory and false doctrine of kenosis. If you say and believe he emptied himself of his divine nature, and kept in on ice somewhere, and that's impossible to have two natures in one body let alone a divine spirit, and instead, scripture clearly says he lived a life of deep humility and servitude in humility especially because God lived in him. And he needed his spirit to succeed in his mission as a human being.

This 'emptying himself' is a farce and a lie as it was introduced to coverup what happed to his so-called divine god nature on earth as he kept an active human nature. It covers up the other preceding lie of the imaginary concept of hypostasis dual natures of Jesus.

No, as a human being and person, he emptied himself of human pride, vanity and taking credit for the power of his God within him. He live a life of no reputation, purposely, to do the will of his Father.

And in question 2, you also missed the sense of my question completely. Although in what you said I agree with you that we are to have the spirit of Christ to be of his Body as one of his own.

This 'emptying himself' is a farce and a lie

Do you believe that the Apostle Paul LIED???

 

[marks]

and perhaps it's this confidence that you find challenging to engage with.

Just tell yourself that and you'll feel OK I'm certain.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Just tell yourself that and you'll feel OK I'm certain.

Much love!

More than okay, Marks! I've been shown a pearl of great price.

I don't need to rely on "mysteries", or things that cannot be known. That has been the main issue in this discussion. When the arguments have sought knowledge and truth, the responses have been, "this is supernatural," "unknown," or "mysteries."

How can one study the deep things of God if they are unknown? Could this be the reason for the lack of confidence on your part?

Is there something missing inside you that you long for but cannot quite grasp?

If only I had the patience and longsuffering of the Lord to deal gently with those who oppose themselves.

With love in the Lord,

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

I don't have any personal investment in what you think.

Do you think this expresses the heart of Jesus?

 

[marks]

Is there something missing inside you that you long for but cannot quite grasp?

Yes. To understand why people waste so much time spinning out these yarns about others instead of having productive and meaningful conversation.

Are you able to see how statements like this are there to build yourself up by putting others down? This is childhood schoolyard stuff, not some kind of great wisdom.

All this contrived and manipulative speech, as though it were a thing of substance!

What a waste of time!

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Do you think this expresses the heart of Jesus?

Marks is seeking a "safe place," and I would imagine Johann is as well. As I mentioned to you recently, we have been quite direct in examining the Trinity and have uncovered many flaws in its reasoning.

As Paul once penned "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

We have done this to the best of our ability and with a good conscience.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Yes. To understand why people waste so much time spinning out these yarns about others instead of having productive and meaningful conversation.

Are you able to see how statements like this are there to build yourself up by putting others down? This is childhood schoolyard stuff, not some kind of great wisdom.

All this contrived and manipulative speech, as though it were a thing of substance!

What a waste of time!

Much love!

Hold on, Marks—if the Lord revealed this to you and it was true, would you respond in the same way?

When the Apostles encouraged you to contend earnestly for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints, does your reply reflect that same spirit?

A waste of time?

Are you not revealing a weakness?

F2F

 

[marks]

Marks is seeking a "safe place," and I would imagine Johann is as well.

There is no fruitfulness in this sort of talk. Project, imagine, make it up as you go along. Whether or not you actually think this, which I have no clue whether you actually do or not, your words are vain. Empty. Just talking down others, for the reasons people do that sort of thing.

Anyway, enough of this vanity.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

There is no fruitfulness in this sort of talk. Project, imagine, make it up as you go along. Whether or not you actually think this, which I have no clue whether you actually do or not, your words are vain. Empty. Just talking down others, for the reasons people do that sort of thing.

Anyway, enough of this vanity.

Much love!

Once again, you are projecting what has already been acknowledged openly in this thread. You are seeking a "deeper study" of your theological view and require a safe place to do that. What is vain about that?

I've already stated this cannot be achieved when two diametrically opposed views are being taught.

We are simply talking about facts here nothing more or less.

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Typical @marks post…

I find your remark laughable … There is a reason I don't engage much with you. I've found you to be … <hateful commentary …ending with …. Wait for it … >

Much love!

Regarding trinitarian logic. On display is Appeal To Emotion and Ad Homenim.

 

[face2face]

Typical @marks post…

He's in a difficult situation, Wrangler. He can't get what he's looking for in this forum right now.

 

[Wrangler]

He's in a difficult situation, Wrangler. He can't get what he's looking for in this forum right now.

He should look in the mirror, take personal responsibility for his emotions and respond to posts to edify not criticize, condemn and complain.

This thread is about trinitarian logic. Predictably, as soon as Marks gets involved, somehow we’re talking about his delicate sensibilities again.

Can you imagine @APAK or @BarneyFife publicly airing complaints about the forum as a whole?

I would never publicly state a forum is not meeting my preferences. It’s shockingly childish. Can you imagine Jesus saying such things?