Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Marvelloustime]

Even if i answer this you will not hear it .
FOR IF YOU HEAR not the TRUTH in scripture that GOD INSPIRED
but rather heed men who twisted it , you aint gonna hear the TRUTH i say .
THE KEY to knowing whether or not what we hear is of men , is of our own minds , is of another spirit
OR REALLY IS OF GOD is this , DID WE HAVE TO TWIST and omit things in the scriptures .
The KEY is if what we know , what we think we know contradicts that which is written THEN ITS A LIE .
And beleive you me , we have more scholars out their who use greek
who use hermunetics , who use exgegis , who use a lot of stuff
and THEY disagree with one the other . BUT THOSE WHO SIT UNDER THEM HOLD TO THEM .
in other words , men have always desired the one thing that ALONE was to be given to GOD and not man .
THE GLORY , THE PRE EMEININCE , the desire for power and control , the desire to be seen of men
In other words , A TON of what has infiltrated and created many sects within christendom , CAME OF MEN BUD .
NOT GOD
And as always men of every age whose desire was to please themselves
Will and do create a way that will always please their flesh .
IF what we do and say , if what we teach , be contrary to what is written , FRIEND I got real bad news , IT AINT COMINGFROM GOD
its coming from ya mind , from men ,
No man here knows and understands all . SO THE KEY IS
OPEN BIBLE again , BELEIVE AS DO A CHILD that what you are reading IS TRUTH
BELEIVE as do a child that you dONT HAVE TO RUN TO MEN , TO GREEK , to learn it
BELIEVE AS DO A CHILD that ITS TRUTH . The understanding will come in time . at least enough understanding
to continue to grow our faith .
YOU sat under men or etc WHO TWISTED THE WORD . HOW DO I KNOW THIS
cause your version of JESUS dont add up
to IN THE BEGINNING was the WORD and GOD IS THE WORD .
rather it adds up too , In the beginning was a word and this word ............
IN other words , YOU are contradicting what is written .
SAME WORD , SAME JESUS , said I AM ALPHA and OMEGA ,
rather odd you seem to omit even that .
Its very true i did not understand things i read at first . BUT I BELIEVED THEM . YOU SEEM NOT TO HAVE EVER
BELEIVED IT AT ALL and that is why you were led as you were led .
NOW that is also a key sign . cause i aint no better than you my friend .
SO what is this sign i speak about . TRUTH .
TRUTH . what is truth , EVERY WORD OF GOD IS TRUTH
We got an ocean of those words in that bible . the question is do we believe what is written
OR are we beliving what men SAY about what is written as they twist and twist and twist .

@amigo de christo

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Wow, is that your brother's picture or even yourself. It looks a lot like your avatar...I see here another person that does not want to know the truth in scripture. Just sit on the fence and wait for someone to feed it to you, and they surely have done that it seems and you have become clueless when confronted with the holy writ, head on.

Some folks just have to learn the hard way thinking what they think is truth is actual satanic deception causing scripture twisting and rejecting the whole counsel of God... their eternity is going to be quite different than what they are expecting

 

[Johann]

It's good to have brothers who care!

I'm on a hiatus it seems, for the most part. I've been re-evaluating my participation. My primary interest here is in going deeper into Scriptures. There are so few here that really do that.

I look at the rampant dishonesty as so many will twist words, both from the Bible, and from other members. Blatant misrepresentation of others is simply lying. I've had my fill of that.

Then there is the "You idiot, can't you see how spiritual I am? What is wrong with you?" posts, which are many, and from many members. And, "Oh you poor poor thing, you can't even understand the most basic truths!" Another I've heard over and over, "You are calling God, or Jesus, a liar!" As if!! But again, it makes them feel superior. That can even be an addiction, to compensate for some emotional deficit.

It seems there are not very many members who share my Scriptural interests, and who have the manners and integrity to have a decent discussion, instead of just running others down, stepping on them to make themselves feel superior, or whatever it is they need to feel.

I could go on and on, I'm sure you've seen all the things I have. I think the great majority of topics that interest me are being pursued in fleshy ways with fleshy results. I've been thinking about the various guidelines given in the Bible, to not engage in ignorant questions, or arguments over words, or striving against others. It seems to me that very many choose to do exactly those things, even delighting in them.

They are plainly showing the pride they are blind to in their condescending replies, as they steadfastly oppose sound doctrine.

So I've lurked here and there, but for the most part, whenever I've started to post, something inside said don't.

I'm not sure where God is leading me at the moment in relation to this forum. I do know that I'm also dealing with, or trying to, some things in my broken head which is also a distraction, and I appreciate your prayers for my healing.

Awaiting His pleasure.

Much love!

I completely understand, @marks. After an intense three-week exchange with three members here, I feel the need for a break and fully agree with the points you've raised.

Things aren't going well on my end right now, so I believe stepping away for a while is the best course of action.

Shalom to you and your family.

Johann.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I didn't say that it did.

You quoted a passage from Matthew to prove that the Trinity was mentioned in scripture. Do deny this now?

You quoted me out of context just so you could say "The passage you reference does not discuss the Holy Trinity as you defined it". Don't do that again, please.

I don't follow what you mean.

That's your problem, you want to see it explicitly stated in Scripture

That's right. Since it isn't explicitly stated in scripture, then the theory is only an interpretation of scripture and the question is whether Trinitarians found it there or brought it with them.

God exists in three Persons, each distinct, united as one because they are the same Essence: love", but you're not always going to hear something explicitely, or any other particular way that you want, because there's more than one way to say something.

I understand that there is more than one way to say the same thing. I maintain that the Trinity theory is absent from Scripture, no matter how one might say it.

Just because something isn't spelled out the way you want or expect it doesn't automatically mean it's not being said.

I agree with you. But the absence of an explicit statement concerning a particular doctrine is suspicious, especially if that doctrine relies on Greek philosophy for support.

It's shown in Scripture that the one God is the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit.

No, that is not shown in scripture.

Other people recognize that, so can you.

The validity of a truth statement isn't subject to majority rule. Thousands of Christians have confessed to the Trinity Doctrine, and each of them is mistaken.

 

[APAK]

..well let me answer my two questions in brief that you could not answer to save your life.

@amigo de christo

1. Jesus cannot be God as he had only a human spirit since his birth and needed his God, his Father's Spirit to enable and later empower him to fulfill his sinless mission for mankind on the Cross and re-emerge as a new existing and glorified being. This answer was really straight forward and does not require any further elaboration.

2. A little more elaborate that requires more thought:
(1Pe 1:10) Concerning this salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come to you;
(1Pe 1:11) searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point to, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow them.
(1Pe 1:12) It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven. Which things the Angels desire to look into.

Trinitarians like to use this verse 11 to say that Jesus pre-existed because it was the spirit of Christ within the OT prophets. Nothing could be further for the truth.

Incidentally, the phrase ‘Spirit of Christ’ is never used in the Old Testament.

The Spirit of God provided/provides even today functional spirits for specific purposes. The spirit of Christ is given by the Spirit of God to know all things related to Christ, and for us to become more Christlike. And the prophets here were searching for details about the prophecies abut Christ birth and his ministry. When and how he would come to save his people for example.

Now it does also suggest that the spirit of Christ was already available to give, even in the OT years, by God, even before Christ first existed.

It also shows how God creates functional spirits for his purpose when he needs it or desires it/them.

Now Yahshua called John the Baptist the spirit of Elijah, as he functioned or performed as Elijah, with his spirit within him.

So, it is easy to see that the spirit is called the “spirit of Christ” because it is associated with Christ and foretold of Christ, not because Christ was actually alive during the Old Testament.

I hope you find truth in this post amigo

 

[Wrangler]

My primary interest here is in going deeper into Scriptures.

I did not realize that. To my way of thinking, there are only 2 basic ways to get deeper into ancient text - of any kind:

1. Better grasp foreign language.
2. Better grasp culture

I have an NSRV Cultural Bible that came out in 2017 as the Bible of the year. It has 10,000 study notes that give great context to verses we might blow bye. One example is "I have to bury my father" was an expression that basically meant, "when hell freezes over."

Regarding foreign language, I understand there are 8 Greek words for love, where something is lost in the translation without adding adjectives, e.g., brotherly, romantic, familial, etc.

It seems there are not very many members who share my Scriptural interests, and who have the manners and integrity to have a decent discussion, instead of just running others down, stepping on them to make themselves feel superior, or whatever it is they need to feel.

Let me be honest. You often come across overly sensitive, especially when anyone challenges your doctrinal foundations. I suspect you are attempting to tie above to this point. Said differently, it takes 2 to tango. Compare my (lack of) participation in most end times or tribulation threads. It's not that I am sensitive to bad manners in such threads, its just that is NOT my Scriptural interest.

Having said that, the few times I've dabbled in it, I was surprised to see the hostility of posts I made that apparently did not agree with their world view. So, here is a suggestion. Start your own threads with the "deeper into Scripture" thesis spelled out in the OP. For instance, in devotional reading today in the book of Ruth, she called one of her mother-in-laws relative (Boaz?) lord. The humility of the characters is amazing and one can hardly imagine calling another today, lord or master, etc, like they do in Star Wars. This covers ancient language as well as culture.

If someone has a difference of opinion, that's OK.

 

[ProDeo]

Prepare to be shocked my friend by my next words .
Expose his error . OH HE HAS PLENTIY of it
but reports against words will co help to lead to the false solutoin .
OF which i am worried you in part are already under , EVEN IF YA KNOW the truth about the GOD HEAD .
So allow me some parting words
Listen to them and let me explain . Anti christ , son of perdtion , satan
devil , hater , monster , and a whole ton of words that equate to or equal too FOUR LETTER
ones i wont repeat . MANY HAVE CALLED ME THESE NAMES
BUT THEY CANNOT silence my mouth .
You all keep reporting every wee tiny posts that offends ya , And beware
ITS GONNA BACKFIRE HUGE on those who speak EVEN THE TRUTH .
TAKE IT LIKE A MAN and expose him . stop whining . I been screamed at to my face
threated by men twice my size , IN PERSON .
Man up . i hope that dont offend ya . BUT FREE SPEECH IS SILENCED on this path you all are taking .
NOT that this scares me . BUT i say this cause you are about to have TRUTH silenced .
You all keep whining , keep complaining . EXPOSE THEM , EXPOSE THE DOCTRINE . stop worrying
about who says what about ya .

Not my style friend.

We know the final Judge is watching.

 

[APAK]

I did not realize that. To my way of thinking, there are only 2 basic ways to get deeper into ancient text - of any kind:

1. Better grasp foreign language.
2. Better grasp culture

I have an NSRV Cultural Bible that came out in 2017 as the Bible of the year. It has 10,000 study notes that give great context to verses we might blow bye. One example is "I have to bury my father" was an expression that basically meant, "when hell freezes over."

Regarding foreign language, I understand there are 8 Greek words for love, where something is lost in the translation without adding adjectives, e.g., brotherly, romantic, familial, etc.


Let me be honest. You often come across overly sensitive, especially when anyone challenges your doctrinal foundations. I suspect you are attempting to tie above to this point. Said differently, it takes 2 to tango. Compare my (lack of) participation in most end times or tribulation threads. It's not that I am sensitive to bad manners in such threads, its just that is NOT my Scriptural interest.

Having said that, the few times I've dabbled in it, I was surprised to see the hostility of posts I made that apparently did not agree with their world view. So, here is a suggestion. Start your own threads with the "deeper into Scripture" thesis spelled out in the OP. For instance, in devotional reading today in the book of Ruth, she called one over her mother-in-laws relative (Boaz?) lord. The humility of the characters is amazing and one can hardly imagine calling another today, lord or master, etc, like they do in Star Wars. This cover ancient language as well as culture.

If someone has a difference of opinion, that's OK.

I still see that all need to go even 'deeper' into the real nature of God and his Son, the basis and foundation of our faith for salvation. Of course your suggestions are really great ideas and tools to know the climate, environment and culture of what others believed about the nature of God, even in their daily lives, in prayer and thanksgiving for example.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then, why didn't Jesus include all those up to that point who also spoke God's message? It's because it's about initiating new believers in the name of God, and He says the name of the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit, because They are God, united as one because They are the same Essence: love. That's called "plurality within unity." Another example of the concept "plurality within unity", from a philosophical perspective, is the substance of water, because it exists in multiple states, each distinct, united as one because they are the same substance: water.

The issue with the water analogy is that it does not align with the Trinity doctrine, which teaches that God is one being in three persons, rather than a single person appearing in three different modes at various times.

As for your good question, Jesus anticipated what happened to the Corinthians, who broke up into factions and disunity.

1 Corinthians 1:10-17 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Ch-loe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.​

Evidently, Cephas and Apollos were making disciples and converts in Corinth. However, rather than recognizing that Jesus is the true teacher, several factions emerged, each favoring the person who baptized them. This confusion and disunity caused Paul to express relief that he had only baptized a few individuals. Jesus had clearly instructed the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, indicating that these three are the true teachers. It seems that Apollos and Cephas were unaware of this commandment.

 

[amigo de christo]

Not my style friend.

We know the final Judge is watching.

them names i listed were what men call me .
THE JUDGE IS WATCHING all right .
Even at the door .
many love a lie my friend . who is a liar , HE that denies JESUS is the CHRIST , he is anti christ
who calleth GOD a liar , HE who believes not the testimony that GOD gave of the SON .
now after you read this , TRY EXAMINING what these intefaith leaders now teach
and just how many folks go about EVEN WITHIN CHRISTENDOM
trying to convince all , that these CHRIST DENYING FALSE RELIGOINS serve the same GOD WE DO .
THAT IS THE POPE FOR YA , that is the ecumincal movment for ya
and that is a whole mess of the protestant realm for ya . PEOPLE BE LOVING A LIE .
but no worries I WILL EXPOSE IT like a pit bull on pork chop i shall rip in shreds the lie of interfaith for all to see .

 

[marks]

Let me be honest. You often come across overly sensitive, especially when anyone challenges your doctrinal foundations.

With this kind of mindset, what exactly should we expect from you?

False accusations of being "overly sensitive" instead of actual replies to my words? That's what I've come to expect, not just from you, but from certain others as well. Is it really true that no one understands that I can point to someone's bad behavior without it coming from some emotionalism?? At the end it's just deflection, and that's what I see very commonly practiced by certain ones.

Let me be honest. If I cared what you think, maybe I might be sensitive to your negative personal comments, maybe not. But in fact I don't care. You don't know me, and you don't give any indication that you really have the first idea about me.

And if these statements somehow express to you I'm overly sensitive, well, I certainly can't help that. You choose what you think, not me. It only takes one to engage in bad behavior. Call attention to it, and the excuses and deflections flow like water.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

The issue with the water analogy is that it does not align with the Trinity doctrine, which teaches that God is one being in three persons, rather than a single person appearing in three different modes at various times.

As for your good question, Jesus anticipated what happened to the Corinthians, who broke up into factions and disunity.

1 Corinthians 1:10-17 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Ch-loe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.​

Evidently, Cephas and Apollos were making disciples and converts in Corinth. However, rather than recognizing that Jesus is the true teacher, several factions emerged, each favoring the person who baptized them. This confusion and disunity caused Paul to express relief that he had only baptized a few individuals. Jesus had clearly instructed the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, indicating that these three are the true teachers. It seems that Apollos and Cephas were unaware of this commandment.

oh Apollos and Cephas are not to blame
ITS THE MEN WHO EXALTED THEM that have the problem .
Even mennos simmons taught truth and HE never asked for men to call themselves after HIS NAME mennoites .
people do as they do .
KNOW this if i ever caught anyone trying to start a demonination in my name as amigoites , THEY BE SO REBUKED
they wouldnt see straight .
IF I EVER hear a person try and even call me FATHER , let alone MOST HOLY FATHER
or reverand , let alone most holy reverand , BE ASSURED A VERY VERY VERY VERY SHARP rebuking is coming their way .
YET SO MANY CALL MEN BY SUCH NAMES . I WONT HEED A WORD ONE OUTTA THEY LIPS EITHER .

 

[amigo de christo]

The issue with the water analogy is that it does not align with the Trinity doctrine, which teaches that God is one being in three persons, rather than a single person appearing in three different modes at various times.

As for your good question, Jesus anticipated what happened to the Corinthians, who broke up into factions and disunity.

1 Corinthians 1:10-17 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Ch-loe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.​

Evidently, Cephas and Apollos were making disciples and converts in Corinth. However, rather than recognizing that Jesus is the true teacher, several factions emerged, each favoring the person who baptized them. This confusion and disunity caused Paul to express relief that he had only baptized a few individuals. Jesus had clearly instructed the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, indicating that these three are the true teachers. It seems that Apollos and Cephas were unaware of this commandment.

REBUKE before all anyone who calleth themselves FATHER ,MOST HOLY FATHER , REVERAND , MOST HOLY REVERAND .
guess that means it time to clear out of such places .
MEN LOVE TITLES , men love the priase of men . I DONT HEED A WORD ONE outta them lips of theirs .
NOR SHOULD ANYONE ELSE . expose error . GOD IS OUR FATHER , AND HE ALONE MOST HOLY FATHER .
NOT some crack pipe hitting man who desired the title . OH when i said i expose all sin , I MEAN ALL OF IT
not just the rainbows , not just the love of money , ALL OF IT . its HOUSE cleaning time , they can go to burger king and work
and stop fleecing the flocks .

 

[face2face]

This isn't about me, but rather about you and the words that you chose to say. You said that Scripture shows "a plurality, united as one" regarding God. That concept of "plurality within unity" means "multiple, distinct, elements, or parts that coexist within a single, unified whole, essentially signifying diversity existing harmoniously within a single entity; it highlights the concept of many different aspects coming together to form one cohesive unit." An example of "plurality within unity", from a philosophical perspective, is the substance of water, because it exists in multiple states, each distinct, united as one because they are the same substance: water. Was the concept of "plurality, united as one" what you intended to apply to God, or did you misspeak?

This you definition, not mine. I believe God singular is the Godhead and that He works through a plurality of agents as one.
F2F

 

[face2face]

It's enough, reported your ugly post.

This is how the doctrine of the Trinity came to be—people, while lying in bed, imagining things that are not true. Look, Pro, this kind of activity has been happening for millennia. It happened at the time of Lamech who thought to himself I'll take two wives...it happened during the time of the Prophets and it happened in 325 AD at your beloved council.

Rather than sulking about it - own it and begin your journey into truth!

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

With this kind of mindset, what exactly should we expect from you?

The defensive royal "we," right out of the gate. The opposite is the case, as usual, it's what we expect from you and being overly sensitive. See how that works?

Is it really true that no one understands that I can point to someone's bad behavior without it coming from some emotionalism??

Double question marks noted.

And if these statements somehow express to you I'm overly sensitive, well, I certainly can't help that. You choose what you think, not me.

Yea, "somehow" denying how you certainly can help that. As I said, so many of your posts come across as overly sensitive. If I were to construct a series of sentences as an example, I could not have done as great a job as you did just now. LOL ... And I know I have your love as you have mine.

 

[Wrangler]

I still see that all need to go even 'deeper' into the real nature of God and his Son, the basis and foundation of our faith for salvation.

There is a Taoist expression that I have not found a Judeo-Christian equivalent. Before enlightenment, chop wood. After enlightenment, chop wood. It means one must always return to the basics.

I am convinced true Christianity is divinely simple. Love God. Love Others. Humans feel compelled to complicate the hell out of it. Many excuse lack of practical application due to their intellectual pursuit. This does not model Jesus for he was not always up on a mountain away from the desperate crowds.

 

[David in NJ]

Two questions for you, and they are post-graduate level questions IMO. And it's Ok if the answers are difficult to reach, let alone the questions themselves easy to understand:
1, How can Jesus be God if he was/had to be filled with God's Spirit?
2. Are you sure that the spirit of Christ was present with the prophets or were they temporarily adjoined to the Spirit of God only, and it was absent of the spirit of Christ at that time, until it was created and given to Jesus by the time of his birth?

Answer #1 - Philippians 2:7
Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,

Answer #2 - Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

 

[face2face]

I still see that all need to go even 'deeper' into the real nature of God and his Son, the basis and foundation of our faith for salvation. Of course your suggestions are really great ideas and tools to know the climate, environment and culture of what others believed about the nature of God, even in their daily lives, in prayer and thanksgiving for example.

@Wrangler. The problem with these discussions is that the two paradigms are fundamentally incompatible and cannot go "deeper" due to their contradictions. For example, exploring Christ's humanity is impossible with a Trinitarian who adheres to the false teaching of dualism.

If serious Bible Study is required from both sides it must be exclusive for it to be beneficial. Maybe this is why the unorthodox section of the forum was created.

Unfortunately, the strength of the Unitarian arguments (and personalities) outweighs the Trinitarian arguments, leading to some discomfort on their side of the discussion.

The tension is real for the moment and if it was a tug of war the U's have it over the T's.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Answer #1 - Philippians 2:7
Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,

Of firstborn privilege's yes!

Answer #2 - Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

True enough!